NASA Protein Crystal Growth (PCG). High quality crystals grown in microgravity to determine 3 D structureCan you pass the protein? I’ll have a little protein with that. I’m dragging a little, I think I need some protein. I’m really trying to bulk up, what are you eating for your protein?

Okay, I admit I was of the same mindset. I once recommended “one serving of protein and one serving of carbohydrate with every meal.” I lost 50 lbs on that advice and yet when challenged by a 11 year old girl with a simple question my “belief system” was stopped in it’s tracks. I took biochemistry in undergraduate and graduate school. I worked in the Biophysics Branch at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center.

While there, I even participated in research on protein crystal growth. We wanted to grow these crystals in the quiescent environment of microgravity (weightlessness) to determine the 3D structure – a lock and key approach to the many complex biological systems sustaining life.  Back then I studied the growth of hen egg-white lysozyme and also had my blood drawn weekly to extract hemoglobin to developed liquid-liquid chromatography techniques to resolve separation of from other model proteins like horseradish peroxidase and whale myoglobin.

My goal of telling you that is not to establish credibility or to boast. It’s for you to consider after we go through what should have been an obvious understanding to anyone that has studied biochemistry or protein chemistry in detail. It’s to demonstrate just how profoundly ignorant EVERYONE seems to be about this subject when it comes to food. I’m as guilty of it as anyone.  It’s as if there is a mysterious wall put up and we all just blindly follow the common explanation in a trance marching one by one over a cliff.

I had all of the information and background necessary and could not answer the simple question from that 11 year old girl on the spot:

“if you’re eating beef for protein, where do cows get protein, because they eat grass?”

I honestly couldn’t completely answer the question. I left that day back in 2009 and headed to attend my first TEDMED conference. There I met some of the most amazing scientists from  Nobel prize winning Biochemist, Kary Mullis, to Apple Co-Founder, Steve Wozniak. The list goes on and among that list was Cardiologist, Dr Dean Ornish and his wife, Anne. They’ve been involved in helping heart patients for years. His work has been featured and ridiculed, but it’s never been disproven. They run a successful practice in beautiful Sausalito California and were even named the 2012 top heart-healthy diet by U.S. News and World Report a few weeks ago.

TEDMED is about being vulnerable and asking questions. I’d been working on lowering my total cholesterol. It started at 240 and had come down to 220 with diet, exercise, and weight loss. I had a debate with a female, “rock-star” friend in late 2008 that convinced me to try Pescetarian (fish, dairy, and eggs only).  This did result in a change in my cholesterol taking it from 220 to 209.  My  “protein” was reduced to dairy (mostly yogurt and occasional cheese) and Fish (mostly salmon) – no “red meat” and no chicken.

Dean was quite clear, “Ray, cut the dairy and limit the servings of fish until you reach your goal and then, if you want, you can add some fish back, but it’s not necessary. I would steer clear of the dairy.”

Crap, I LOVE yogurt. I LOVE cheese. I was drinking WHEY “protein supplements.” Additionally, I LOVE eggs, but stick to egg whites. You know, I like lamb with mint sauce, but I’m a scientist and quite frankly I had never even considered eliminating ALL animal products.

This brought me full circle to that question posed by this very bright 11 year old girl in California: where would I get my “protein?”

Bohemian like you..

Dean didnt say it, but I was thinking it. No, not the V-word. Eat vegan? AYFKM? How would I get my protein? Wow, do I need to mix up vegetable protein sources to get complete protein?  I don’t want anyone to jump to conspiracy theories. I have mentioned I ate a completely vegan for fourteen months (for the record, a year after my 50 weight loss with using cold exposure) as a self-experiment and I can’t explain away the results:

My total cholesterol dropped to 135.

It was a self-test no different than the work on mild cold stress. I’m not here to simply “advocate veganism,” nor am I particularly motivated by pushing animal rights. I’ve hunted and I grew up with 200 head of cattle on our family farm. I am not a “reformed meat eater,” but a scientist that wants to understand the basic facts about nutrition. I am fascinated by what happens on a “plant-based diet” and I lived it completely for 14 months, so I do understand it – the difficulties, traveling, activist agendas, and ridicule. It was quite clear that I saw results with a plant-based diet that simply never happened when I was eating meat and dairy. Even my adult acne (mainly on my back and triceps) completely vanished.

Have I offended everyone yet?

My motivation is to understand why the explanation of the food I eat was clashing with what my text books taught, but most importantly this question from an 11 year old girl REALLY puzzled me. After all, some of the biggest animals, hippopotamus, rhinoceros, elephants, elk and even my own “protein” sources (cows, pigs, lambs and chickens), are all herbivores. Big fish eat little fish, but what do little fish eat?

I am driven by understanding the energy. We must follow the thermodynamics, because I don’t believe for one minute that the second law is wrong. To understand what I learned, I am going to have back up a little and help you learn, or refresh your memory, on the fundamentals of proteins in biochemistry. Let’s learn about proteins, but we’re not talking about Turkey or Tofu. We are going to discuss REAL protein not a classification for food.

Protein: it’s part of a complete breakfast.

cellulose, glucose, starch

Starch and Cellulose are made from the same building block, Glucose. They have a different saccharide bond that holds them together.

Remember when I outlined carbohydrates? Do you recall that starch (bake potato) and cellulose (e.g. wood fiber) are the same thing: long chains of glucose or sugar? When we digest starch we break it down into units of glucose. The same is true when termites eat wood. We discussed long and short chained fatty acids, which also get broken down.

The energy in ALL of these molecules are in the bonds that hold them together. For example, fiber doesn’t have calories, because you don’t have the enzyme to break the beta-linkage between the glucose. Bacteria in the rumen (a stomach) of a cow CAN do it. The bacteria get the energy from breaking down the fiber and then the cow absorbs the resulting glucose. A baby calf grows 600-800 lbs in a year on grass we can’t digest.

Protein is also made up of a fundamental unit called an amino acid (see figure). These amino acids are the building blocks of all proteins from the “meat” we eat to enzymes, specialized proteins like amylase and pepsin, we used to break down food into absorbable nutrients. Scientists call these large strings of amino acids or glucose (as in starch/fiber) macromolecules. Plants, fungus, animals and bacteria – all living things – depend on macromolecules. Even a non-living virus is composed of genetic material and a protein coat.

Proteins are repeating units of various amino acids (R varies). We can grow protein crystals and determine the 3D structures.

Proteins are repeating units of various amino acids (R varies). We can grow protein crystals and determine the 3D structures.

A single cell contains between 100,000 and 1,000,000 different kinds of molecules and a little over half of these are macromolecules such as protein, nucleic acids (RNA/DNA) and polysaccharides (carbohydrates)

For today, understand that protein is to an amino acid as Starch is to glucose (sugar). Our body doesn’t need starch or protein. Our body needs glucose and amino acids. We don’t bolt  oyster protein onto our biceps after we slurp them down. Equally important is that pasta isn’t shoved into a marathon runner’s quads when he carb-loads before a race.

Digestion (we’ll study this further after finishing protein) breaks down these macromolecules from the plants and animals we ingest and it is the base units – the amino acids and sugars – that are then reassembled by our body into useful macromolecules. Protein is synthesize from amino acids in ribosomes of the cell cytoplasm and glycogen (remember it’s the animal version of “starch”) is manufactured primarily in the liver and muscle tissue from glucose in the blood.

Do you see the big picture here? We take in this complex food, with all the proteins, carbohydrates and fat contained within, and then it is completely broken down to its individual components (e.g. amino acids and glucose) during digestion.  At that point your body creates the specific macromolecule it NEEDS (proteins and glycogen) from these little lego-blocks.

This is indisputable and yet our idea of eating “protein, carbs and fat” does not really capture this at all. What REALLY is happening at the most basic level is:

1) The body needs ENERGY (carbohydrate, fat or protein are all used) to keep warm, move, build tissue, activate the many biochemical reactions of life
2) The body needs NUTRIENTS (amino acids, vitamins, phytochemicals and minerals) for components/catalysts (lego blocks) to create the 50,000-500,000 macromolecules that form each cell in your body.

The confusion comes in because dieting, particularly weight loss, is about minimizing macronutrient energy consumption (fuel), while continuing to provide sufficient micronutrients (service) for repair and function. It’s further complicated by the fact that protein is both a source of amino acid nutrients AND can be used as a back up fuel.

Lego of protein to understand

The best thing you can do, and I am not splitting hairs here, is to substitute the words “amino acids” every time you say, I need “protein.” Chances are you don’t “need” it, but at least it will help remind you what your body really needs. You likely don’t crave it at all – it’s a myth. The body does not store amino acids – cells grab them from the blood stream all the time. Our body needs 20 different amino acids to build all proteins and half, the 10 nonessential amino acids, our body manufactures without the need to ingest. The other half, 10 indispensable or essential amino acids, we must ingest in our food. The truth is, whether a body builder or growing child, you don’t need “protein” at all. You need amino acids so that the body can synthesize or manufacture its OWN protein.

Plant cells are made up of proteins as well. There is nothing more “plantish” then chlorophyll (the green photosynthesis lifeblood of leaves) and each plant cell contains the complex organic molecule chlorophyll along with MANY proteins. Insulin is a protein. Milk casein is a protein. Wheat gluten is a protein. Amylase is a protein. Egg whites are about 10% protein (13 different kinds, balance is water). Some are allergic to bee venom proteins. We all react to protein neurotoxins in snake venom bites. If you are allergic to pollen, strawberries, shellfish or cats…your body is reacting to PROTEINS.

Our body NEEDS amino acids, but it is set up to DEFEND against foreign protein. The entire immune system is based on recognition of protein which cloak a virus, attacking and then eliminating identified invaders from the body. HIV is a particularly difficult virus because it’s protein coat goes through a change as new copies are produced – like trying to chase a criminal with a mug shot that changes after each crime. Autoimmune diseases is simply when our immune systems starts think “us” is “them.”  It goes on a rant – attacking your own protein and destroying vital biological function.

Protein: useful in journal articles, useless for menus

The body and it’s ability to produce  unimmaginably complex proteins that literally create life is astonishing and we all should know better than to trivialize it. Scientists all know that we don’t “need to manage protein” in our diet and yet I was guilty of the same psychobabble as the rest of them. It was a convenient way of categorizing food that has reached it’s limit.  We don’t have to use this very imprecise word, protein, quoined in 1838.  It even confuses physicians and most nutritionists. We all just want to know what to eat and yet our NEW government plate no longer says “meat,” because that is simply not true and so they have gone in reverse semantically and now say protein.

On the next post, I will delve more into protein and continue to give you a new way to think about it. The answers will be obvious. Until then, please take a look at this amazing video, originally produced by a world-renowned medical illustrator that happens follows this blog.

Hi-res narrated version here: Harvard Multimedia site

 

Perhaps you too will see the astonishing beauty in the complexity of protein in all life. If you are familiar with cell biology, maybe you’ll even recognize some of the many chemical reactions that keep us alive. Make no mistake about it – no one that truly thinks about it would EVER ask: So, where are you getting your protein?  Protein is ubiquitous in everything we eat. We’ll discuss more about amino acids, but keep in mind that proteins lay at the very heart of our immune system.  The many chronic issues we face today could in fact be lurking in the massive quantities of foreign protein we are exposed to routinely.

Btw, I don’t want to debate vegan vs paleo vs slowcarb, etc… It’s boring and irrelevant and I have experimented with all of them.  What I am interested in are questions comments about amino acids and hearing what you have to think about this explanation. There is a lot to…digest…so, after some time for discussion, I will post Part 2 and we’ll explore the various sources of amino acids and how that may have impacts on health.

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Thanks!
Ray

 

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125 Responses to Pass the Protein – Part 1

  1. Martin Vargas says:

    Ray! Wow, I think I’ll read this post twice.

    I always wondered how a vegan diet obtained “good protein”

    But once again, I’m left in the “what should I eat?” side of the debate. I guess after all is said and done, the simpler the better, the less processed, the less complex.

    thanks!

    Martin.

    • admin says:

      Sorry Martin – Didn’t mean to diss you. I just didn’t push send.

      The truth is all diets contain adequate protein. It’s really hard to be protein deficient. As for what to eat, I have a simple plan that I’m putting together and I think there are several success methods. It seems like one way will be “optimal.” I’m just interested in people doing tests – really focused – and seeing the results first hand.

      Appreciate the comments!

      Ray

  2. joe shays says:

    Your efforts to strip protein/amino-acids – starches/glucose of their cultural and ideological baggage is admirable. Along the way though, I somehow I feel lost. I’m an english lit major, and I’m looking for some translation for the layperson to be the dominant vibe.

    One who does not speak science-ese upon ocular examination of this post (and many before it) sees something unfamiliar, which causes the thalamus to send it’s signal directly to the amygdala, bypassing the cortex. (Science-ese for “eyes glazed over” or “blank stare”)

    I don’t mind the science, but drilling down to the nitty-gritty leaves this reader impatient and confused.

    The reward for hanging in there? To recategorize every false notion I’ve ever had about metabolic mechanics???

    If so, I can’t see the forest through the trees.
    I’m still waiting for direction about getting cold as a service to weight loss/maintenance. I think of Ray as the “Cold Guy” in my palette of strategies to lose and keep weight off.

    Mechanisms have never motivated me, I guess. And if the “why” is something you feel you need to lay down before we get to “cold”, then I beg of you – employ an editor who can translate your journey into laymans terms.

    I should probably rewrite this comment to eliminate the “edge”, because I am not angry or disappointed in general. You have challenged us to think different. It just hit me tonight that I have been hanging in there a long time to for the major “how cold works” point. Please let me know where it is if I’ve missed it.
    Joe

    • admin says:

      Thanks Joe…

      I dug in deep so that I could bring it back up to that level. Unfortunately, you are hanging and I agree, but I can’t do this full time (yet). All of this content will lay the foundation for both eating AND cold exposure. I PROMISE to bring it up out of the weeds soon. I am trying to stay in the “why” for now. It will be the things that are referenced once I do the summary. You will see how hunger, cold and metabolism all intersect at the hypothalamic–pituitary–thyroid axis. It will make sense when it comes together and you’ll probably do better looking back, then wading forward.

      As for cold, I leave this friday for Amsterdam for some work with Wim Hof. We should be able to release the thermal load e-book shortly after.

      Thanks for the comments and sorry to have lost you. I appreciate the the input and patience!

      Ray (rather be cool than cold) Cronise

  3. ron alpert says:

    Ray, great post and wonderful animation.

    I keep wondering to myself if, as you thread your way along this path of explanation, you don’t already have an answer in mind. The inquiry is wonderful, I truly enjoy it. Yet I feel you know the end and simply enjoy taking us through the forest.

    Ron

    • admin says:

      yep. I do know the answer, but it will be so contrary to what is taught, I had to build up my own reference library of posts to take us there.

      …and by saying “know” it’s as close as I can get with the information at hand. The body is a complex thing, but you will see that this pathway will work. Not to worry, it’s not going to be a simple “be a vegan” close. I will explain energy, metabolism and health and take the food discussion off to a new site I am building right now.

      Thanks for the comments!!!

      Ray

  4. Mark Carroll says:

    I have removed all sauces, and have been strictly lean meat and green veggies for now… Waiting to see where you go with this protein, er I mean amino acid bit. Was Harvey Diamond right all these years?

    • admin says:

      hmmm… who is Harvey Diamond? LOL! I just googled as I had never heard of him. On a very cursory scan, similar, but not identical. Mine is based on the thermodynamic basis of food combined with the hypothalamic–pituitary–thyroid axis. It turns out that it is the intersection between thermal regulation and hunger. The problem is that when you look at the solution, the food you eat will be challenging in the same way that a paleo would debate with a vegan. Both are looking at a nickel – one sees a buffalo and the other an Indian.

      There isn’t a lot new, but I will not teach from the basis of protein, carbohydrate and fat as that leads to confusion – primarily due to the misunderstanding of amino acid and carbohydrate.

      Ray

  5. Alex Stoilov says:

    I just cannot understand why a cow (eating grass) is 10 times fattier than a lion (eating meat).Please,explain it to me like I am a 6-years-old!

    • Mark Simpson says:

      Cows are fed corn these days which makes them fat. They can’t even digest corn without additional human-provided enzymes. Their stomachs will actually blow up. Grass-fed beef is not fatty at all.

      If a lion over-ate on nothing but corn-fed beef, they would also end up fat.

      • admin says:

        right, the only “obese” animal (above their ideal weight) are domesticated – cats, dogs, rats, pigeons, etc… Animals in the wild all starve. There are animals with high body fat for insulation (blubber) or for storage through hibernation or times of calorie scarcity.

        Humans don’t used fat for insulation and we don’t need 20-100lbs of extra fat for calorie scarcity (unless you trapped by the snow in your car). 🙂 fantastic!

        On the other hand lean-meat is an oxymoron. It only is lean if one reports the fat as a percentage of WEIGHT not calories. Unfortunately our dietary guidelines are all reported as percentage of calories. If you do the math, it’s clear that chicken and beef aren’t far apart (a few percent) and salmon (the “healthy fat”) is even worse.

        We have a conundrum and that is why I want to start over from a thermodynamics/nutrition perspective.

        Thanks for the comment!

        Ray

    • admin says:

      Alex

      No need for “6th grade” lectures. This stuff isn’t easy if you want to understand, but a 6th grader could understand it if taught.

      Neither cows nor Lions are fat. Have you ever raised cattle? I can tell you that a bull or a steer is very lean and muscular. While we often use “fat as a cow” It is certainly only an idiom. The female has more body fat (not unlike humans) and I suspect it is an evolutionary trait to allow for the calories of lactation after giving birth. Cows are larger than lions, but so are giraffe – both are extraordinarily muscular.

      Penguins, sea lions, and polar bears on the other hand are all “fat” carnivores. They are “obligate carnivores” in that they must consume meat to survive. They all happen to have huge stores of body fat – more than cows and lions, but incidentally Human infants are born with more bodyfat and BAT then all of them. (Kuzawa 1998).

      Being carnivore is no prerequisite for being lean or low bodyweight. Humans starve and cannot survive on lean meat alone as it causes protein poisoning – see rabbit starvation. On the other hand we can survive on potato (no other food) indefinitely. Potato has sufficient and complete protein, carbohydrate and many vitamins/minerals. I suspect that some oil (from algae, nut or seed) would be necessary for DHA. Certainly it is not an ideal diet, but there should provide at least some hint that we are certainly not obligate carnivores – we do not need meat to survive, despite the fact that we can eat it as part (not all) of our diet.

      We have always told stories of being “strong as a bear” or “sly as a fox,” but these idioms – comparing ourselves to other species really serves no purpose in science. What is important is that the digestion of fiber/sugar/starch, protein, and fat have known metabolic pathways. I used other species as examples to illustrate the amino acids (“protein”) had to come from somewhere to put on huge muscle mass so quickly. I did not suggest that our digestive tracts are the same – only that the nutrient requirements are the same. Truth be told, our digestive tracts are as different from cows as we are from lions if that was a factor. I think it is irrelevant.

      Clearly we don’t need to drop backwards to such high level rationalizations to try to justify whatever your “beliefs” might be. Take the time to let go of them and learn the basic science here. I am not trying to create blind believers, I want to educate.

      If you found anything technically wrong in my post, let me know. I make mistakes and only when I’m wrong about something do I learn. It’s true of everyone, but not everyone will admit it 🙂

      thanks for the comment.

      Ray

    • shilpa b says:

      Alex, Horse eats only grass and see how muscular it is!

  6. Michael Potter says:

    Ray, very good solid analytical thinking. Thank you for getting us focused on food, health and nutrition!

  7. Robert Burkhalter says:

    i cannot thank you enough for the animation. awesome — in the truest sense of the word.

    just because I’m willing to follow you anywhere is no license for you to ramble…

  8. Alex Stoilov says:

    Ray, you have just rocked my world!The “6th grade” is a quote from a Denzel Washington’s movie.Your comments are just killing me.I am eating 1 pound of pork meat every night,without any sort of starches,and now you are telling me the potatoe is number one meal.I am just so confused.I have to reread all of your posts,but I am not shure if at the end,I will know what should I eat.What about all the crap that carbs causes diabet?Everything is so confused.I still cannot get it.But one thing is for sure,cows are really not fat,they are just big.

    • admin says:

      LOLOLOL! hey, we are ALL confused. You know, there might just be more than one “correct” answer. There is no doubt that eating “lean meat” will cause weight loss as to any high protein diets. That is confirmed with the ideas of “rabbit starvation.” the question is will it cause sustainable health? I don’t think eating only potato is the right way either, but AT LEAST it won’t kill you. As for the diabetic issues of the last decade or so being associated with the “bad carbohydrate,” I am not sure that it’s the full story. There is a TON of research out there that gives amnesty to the innocent victim – starch.

      Explain these results: High saturated fat and low starch and fibre are associated with hyperinsulinaemia in a non-diabetic population:
      The San Luis Valley Diabetes Study

      Again, none of this makes a conclusive case that all meat is bad, but if 1) we can live off meat alone 2) we’ve had an increased rate of insulin resistance with increased fat, simple sugar, dairy, and meat consumption and 3) Many people with type 2 diabetes have been successfully treated – all blood pressure and diabetic medicines eliminated – by a simple all starch diet, it makes me wonder why that is the case. Rather than argue and debate about things I didn’t know, I’ve been reading the literature and most importantly, doing self tests. There is validity in N=1 experiments and it happens to be the highest priority “N” I know 🙂

      What I found doing both extremes is that only one improved both my weight AND blood biomarkers. These are just numbers.

      The MOST important thing is that talking about “generalizations” of protein, carbohydrate, and fat cause me problems with controlling my experiments and observations. I know potato is nitrogen positive (more on that later) and that means it is SUFFICIENT protein. I am NOT recommending 100% potato diet. IN fact I am not really recommending potato at all. What I am outlining is the inconsistency that FORCES us to challenge what we’ve been told and I’m asking everyone to stop using protein, carbohydrate and fat as food groups.

      Thanks for the input. This will all make it into Part 2 – it’s been a GREAT comment and forced me to think even deeper. I really appreciate it.

      Ray

  9. Seth Featherston says:

    High amino acids in the diet wont kill you, it’s the lack of carbohydrates or fat with it. Just to be clear. I am wondering more about the psychological aspect of the food we eat. Does a diet higher in aminos cause less/more cravings for “more” food? Or whatever the macros happen to be, or is it on a more personal level why we overeat? You are good at scientifically looking at food, but when so many of us eat out of happiness, sadness or sheer boredom, it should be addressed. What happens physiologically and psychologically with what we eat and what are brains tell us? I know how to lose weight, eat less macros, tell my brain that though when i’m scarfing food down, and telling myself “just eat, it’s fine.” Until later. To tie this in, does a diet consisting of large amounts of micronutrients, curb hunger while eating less macros? Sorry to go so personal with why I struggle with weight issues but I think many of us feel this way. Thanks again for the research and time you take out of the day to answer us.

    • admin says:

      Thanks Seth…

      see my long reply to Alex.

      I will deal with the hunger part separately, but it IS IMPORTANT. Macronutrients probably are not the driving source of “true hunger,” but you don’t see it. What you commonly describe as “hunger” is actually withdraw symptoms from calorically rich food. I can show you how to prove it, but you’ll have to test it for yourself to believe it.

      Heroin users always feel worse when they come off drugs. That’s just part of the problem and since we starved during most of our evolutionary past, we are wired with strong dopamine hits for sugar, salt, and fat.

      Ray

      • Seth Featherston says:

        Yeah I understand what your saying, when I actively avoid such trigger foods, high in density that I enjoy a little too much, it just sits in my mind and gets bigger and bigger in my mind. Now I’ve kicked the habit on many nutrient poor foods, but where should we draw the line on just eating for fuel and enjoying food too. If we just eat for fuel, might as well just blend up some kind of gruel that has all the requirements for that individual. I can deal with most the foods I eat just fine that most would consider plain or boring but can we have fun with food as well? Maybe your at a different place than I am but if I can eat certain palatable foods and still stay under calories, would there be anything wrong with that? Or is it like a drug, you have to abstinent or addicted?

      • admin says:

        it’s not mutually exclusive to enjoy food and it be healthy. Back to the heroin addict, they might imply nothing is as fun without it. Perhaps that is the point. I REALLY enjoy the food I eat now and love to cook. I travel and have room to make it work. I’m also not absolute, but in my case had to completely go into the extreme for a year to understand those fundamental drives.

        I think food SHOULD taste good, be healthy, AND fun. No reason why it can’t be everything. The problem we have is that “everything” massed produced or consumed may not be the best choice. How many things that are massed produced are every more than average? I don’t feel like I am missing out on anything.

        Good stuff,

        Ray

  10. Alex Stoilov says:

    Let’s say that our body kneeds fuel to survive.We kneed fats for low intensity work and starches for high intensity work.We also kneed building blocks (protein).But like a car needs oil engine,brake fluid,antifreeze etc., we kneed fruit and veggies.So the main problem is that we overfeed with “fuel” but undereat with “service parts”.And we look like a car with full with petrol tank but with no oil in the engine and no brake fluid in the brakes.It is impossible to drive a car with no oil in the engine.
    I think a reasonable diet shoul consist of fat,starches and protein.So for the avarege Joe a day shoul look like: fasting all day long and using fat for low int. activity (working in the office,walking to the park etc).Snacking on some berries and nuts is allowed.After work doing a breif high intensity work (fitness,sprints etc.) and then go home and take enough time for rest and recovery with some fat steak,a tone of veggies and enough roots (potatoe) to refuel the body for the very next day.
    Am I at least close to the truth?

    • admin says:

      Good Points Alex and here is the place where the “macronutrient model” (protein carbs and fat) fails. First, your second sentence is not true. We don’t use fats/starches for low intensity work. What you did was introduce three different paradigms in the same sentence. Our body using active blood sugar – glucose. The brain uses glucose. When glucose levels fall, the body sends out for glycogen (stored glucose) to be converted into blood sugar.

      You have about enough glycogen to almost run a marathon (around 2000 cal). The problem is that it is distributed between liver (400 cal) and the balance throughout the muscle. In other words you could for example deplete local glycogen in the legs and there is some elsewhere that takes time to mobilize.

      If glycogen stores are tapped out (for example, let’s say we fasted), then the body taps into fat stores to create acetyl CoA that basically jumps into the same TCA cycle that derives energy from blood glucose. Distance runners train their body to tap into these fat stores early in the run and keep from depleting all of their glycogen.

      I think a reasonable diet shoul consist of fat,starches and protein.

      So this is the problem and maybe you can help me find a way to explain it to others. Proteins, carbohydrates and fats are NOT food groups. They are macronutrients. So I for example I said eat potato and flaxseed. The average person MIGHT recognize flaxseed as a source of Omega-3 FA. They would see potato as a “carb” and would completely miss the reality of what they were eating, Namely:

      Per 100 g of boiled white potato (no skin)*

      calories -87 kcals
      Protein – 1.87 g
      Carbohydrate – 20.13 g
      Fat – .1 g
      Vitamin C – 13 mg
      Thiamin – .106 mg
      Niacin – 1.44 mg
      Iron .31 mg
      Phosphorus – 44 mg
      Potassium – 379 mg
      Calcium – 5 mg

      Now I weighed a potato just now that was a little bigger than my fist and it weighed 293 g, so multiply those numbers.

      So, I ask you, would you count that as a protein, carbohydrate, fat, vitamin, or mineral? The answer is that is is ALL of the above, but the idea of classifying it as a “carb” because it’s the primary “calorie” is just misleading. We know that eating nothing but potato results in a positive nitrogen balance (more on next post). This means you are getting ENOUGH amino acids (protein) to create an excess and the body is burning up the rest (inefficiently – so not weight promoting).

      Now, I am using potato for example for two reason: most associate it with “evil carbs” and tubers are probably the most dominate source of calories humans had access to throughout evolution. We don’t secrete pepsin in our saliva, we secrete amylase. There are 4-12 copies of that gene (amy1) in our genome for redundancy.

      So do you see the conundrum? the issue is people are going around spouting protein carbs and fat and what we really need is to follow a diet of FOOD. Real food has a mixture of all of three…plus vitamins…plus minerals…plus…plus?

      So your very organizing construct, protein, carbohydrate and fat almost guarantees failure. In the US, if we look at potato consumption it’s almost NEVER consumed without butter, sour cream and cheese. Many put bacon and BBQ on it as well. When a study is done, like the recent one at Harvard I reported on in June’s Pyramid Schemes, the authors LUMP potato, chips, and fries into the same category. When they look at splitting it out, as was critiqued in follow on letters to the editor, they say, “we see no difference.” That is because POTATOES are not consumed as potatoes any more, they are consumed loaded with fats and oils.

      I want people to realize that the food they eat is far more complex and that is why I’ve taken the time to go back to the basics here.

      We might want to start a new message, but let me know if this helps. I really want to be able to explain it in a way that everyone will get.

      Anyone else see what I am saying here? I am not trying to advocate a “diet scheme,” but rather, highlight the issues we have with complexity of food. When I recommend “food” I don’t want to defend protein, carbs and fat. Gary Taubes has shown all calories aren’t equal and I submit he got the right answer for the wrong reason.

      Thanks alex…you challenge me and I like that!!!

      Ray

      * source USDA Food database

  11. Gregory Hutson says:

    Ray, you mentioned your total cholesterol changes. What sort of changes did you see in HDL and triglyceride levels? And, in your research did you differentiate between eating factory farm meat vs. pastured, grass fed animal protein or raw milk and dairy? While I will agree with you that meat and dairy may not be 100% necessary, a lot of people respond more favorably when they switch to better food quality.

    • admin says:

      They were as you might expect and tracked the same as the total cholesterol – I went as low as 30ish and as high as 140. My HDL moves a little with diet, but much more with exercise. It drops to the upper 20s without and up in the 50-60s with exercise.

      I am positive that neither meat nor dairy is necessary. I proved that without a doubt and there is no paper I have ever found in the last three years that say it is. Unfortunately it is the Fat< --->Carbohydrate struggle, our traditional energy sources, that cause all the fuss. When people try to do “studies” on food, it’s nearly impossible to get compliance (I prefer the older military studies with 100s that were fed daily than the mega studies relying on people “remembering.”

      I don’t write it down I FREQUENTLY don’t remember it properly. The mind does incredible things and magicians take advantage of it all the time (you out there John? jump in). Grass fed didn’t make a real difference as I am way past that with my diet and after all, that’s just lowers fat in their meat for the exact same reason as OUR overconsumption of simple, ubiquitous caloric excess raises ours.

      Does that help Greg? I am trying to determine at what upper level of consumption of these products do we have issues. It’s counter to the “protein frenzy,” but just because it’s an easy way to lose weight through tertiary macronutrient starvation, doesn’t mean it’s healthy.

      Thanks for the input!

      Ray

  12. Alex Stoilov says:

    Ray, as I’ve just posted a comment on Fat Part 1,I finally understood that pro/carb/fat are macronutrients and we cannot live a healthy live without MICRONUTRIENTS.I think primals lived all day long and sometimes a few days in a row on berries and roots (micronutrients) and took energy from their own body.After they cought the pray they refuel with meat (macronutrients).The interest thing is that I cannot see any fat in their meals:)

    • admin says:

      ok…here is the SECRET decoder ring. For all useful purposes if you think:

      meat = fat

      and NOT:

      meat = protein

      then you will unravel the mystery. The inuits for example hunt seal NOT for “protein,” but for the FAT. They need the energy. Not the picture of health, but they NEED calories for the 5000cal/day thermal load of the cold. What did the west bring? Carbohydrate. What happened? they got FAT.

      Can you tell me why?

      Ray

    • admin says:

      Oh, and btw, Native Americans were the first group in our nation to be taken over by obesity and diabetes. Most are still lactose intolerant (unlike my ancestors – I am maternal – Haplogroup J1b and Paternal – Haplogroup R1b1b2a1a2 as I have had my genotype analyzed along the way).

      They lived off of primarily off roots of Tognough, berries, corn, “stalk of green bath juice” (like sugar cane), melons, squash, and nuts&seeds. They had some fish and did hunt, but it took LOTs of energy to do it.

      Now guess what happened when the english settlers to Jamestown brought in dairy and cattle and huge excess of meat and dairy?

      They got FAT and SICK. Do you know why?

      Ray

  13. Alex Stoilov says:

    The west bring carbs and the english settlers bring diary and meat and both of them get fat because meat and carbs are fuel and are used for energy.Roots,berries and veggies are the building blocks.We overfill our tank and get fat.And we don’t get enough building blocks (roots,berries) and get sick.Ray,my friend,don’t tell me I am wong:)

    • admin says:

      you are correct. and it’s related to over consumption of calories. What may happen is that small changes in the micro biome of the intestine go a long way..

      That being said, where we’ve excelled was in acute medicine and infectious disease.

      More coming…

      Ray

  14. Alex Stoilov says:

    So all that things about 1gr protein per pound bodyweight is nonsense.Last night I could’t sleep.I was so excited.The last two years I was eating meat,eggs and butter.Veggies were in very small quantity.I was feeling lack of energy all the time and therefore eating more meat and lard.I was thinking I am not getting enough calories.My tank was full with fuel.Even more,I was carrying 2-3 full tanks for any case.But my body was running without any engine oil and service maintanence.Yesterday I fasted all day long.I was going to eat 1 pound of fatty pork for dinner.While I was waiting for the dinner,suddenly everything got clear to me (after reading Ray’s post).I put the meat in the refrigerator and cooked 1 pound of veggies (broccoli,cauliflower,leek,carrots,turnip and some potatoe and nuts).All in all not more than 400-500 kk.Today, even though I couldn’t sleep last night, I feel more fresh and light than ever.So the message is crystal clear: eat only micronutrients (with little macronutr.) till you get rid of the fat and reach 8-10 % bodyfat.Then eat macronutrients for energy according your activity level.But I still have some things not enough clear.For example wich plants are with best ratio of vitamins,minerals and aminos.
    Ray,if this is true (it is the most logical concept of human metabolism) you deserve Nobel prize.

    • admin says:

      Alex

      It isn’t nonsense – we do have a need “protein” for amino acids. The obligatory nitrogen (amino acid/protein) level is about .3g/kg. Do we need double that? do we need triple? I think as long as we take in all the amino acids (will explain more on this next post) we need – in other words we have EXCESS excreted in our urine in the form of nitrogen, then we are covered.

      I saw this first hand in the swimming pool industry driven by chemical manufacturers. In the US for nearly 80 years, the standard allowed an upper limit of 0.5 ppm chlorine in the water. At that level disinfect occurs. Many European countries adhere to that reasonable standard every day. I sat on the committees that created the ANSI standards for over 7 years. Do you know that many states have now a MINIMUM of 1.5 ppm and a Max of 10 ppm!!! This is causing respiratory problems with lifeguards and is a stupid idea, but you know, for the chemical industry more chlorine is better…especially when pool installations are going down. “a little more” isn’t always a good thing. “Just in case” can cause unnecessary problems in areas you weren’t intending.

      As for food, I don’t think the average person needs to go around and intentionally look for “protein” or any other macronutrient. In fact, I think if you DO plan with protein, carbohydrates and fats, you WILL get it wrong. Data is way on my side. We are getting fatter and sicker despite MORE information than ever.

      Again, my goal here is not to make a blanket statement meat = bad, but what I do want to understand is why health has deteriorated when every corner of medicine technology is undergoing exponential growth. It does’t make sense. Now every wants to blame it on what the cows are eating, but not blame it on what WE eat. I think the real problem, and few would disagree, is that highly processed/refined food are everywhere. I’m not talking about pesticides and GMO, I am talking about adding things like whey, casein, soy, etc…into EVERYTHING. I will be just as critical of soy products as I am of the role of meat and dairy – I guess I am protein agnostic.

      It is ridiculous to suggest that eating a steak is going to kill you, but eat one every day? that seems like a bad idea. The problem is that the marketing of this “protein” leads people to believe that there are “different” kinds of meat: Red Meat vs white meat, Fish vs Mammal. This is a coke vs pepsi argument, because if you look at Fat/Cholesterol per CALORIE, then it’s real a wash.

      The latest round is that it’s the fat argument is dead. I’m not sure that is correct, but I can’t disprove it either. What I know is I don’t find any studies that say increased plant consumption leads to cancer, diabetes, or heart disease outside of highly refined sugars. Even in the vegan/vegetarian groups I see them boasting of “agave” as if it is the nectar of the gods – its High Fructose Agave Syrup – Not different than High Fructose Corn Syrup. The same is true of TSP (textured soy protein).

      The real answer seems to be all around us. Do the experiment.

      Ray

  15. krishnan g says:

    Ray,

    As your blog progresses toward the hypothalamic–pituitary–thyroid axis, I hope you will also talk of the oxygen-carbon dioxide balance and their effects. I’ve been a livelong vegetarian (not vegan as I take in a lot of dairy) and tried 60 minutes of pranayama, especially kapalabhati, a form of hyperventilation. After doing this for three months, my LDL fell from 128 to 69 and the cardiologist said he wouldn’t put me on statins after all (I’m a marginal type 2 diabetic). Do you have any empirical data on this subject? Or do I have to wait till you one day get to that topic (and I hope you will).

    From reading and watching videos on raw food and green smoothies, I learnt a long time ago not to be bothered about proteins and focus on amino acids instead. So, I was thrilled when a scientist like you reinforced this idea! As for meat eaters who worry that they’ll die if they eat only veggies, the millions of vegetarians in the world are perfect examples. A good way to avoid the hunger pangs is to eat a salad that has a lot of nuts. And go easy on the dressing –that is the real troublemaker.

    • admin says:

      Thanks Krishnan,

      As a matter of fact I’m in Amsterdam right now finalizing cold exposure work and breathing. I’m really quite amazed that the body works this way. I might have discounted your experience before, but now I’m seeing directly this sort of thing demonstrated. There is a connection and I’d like to understand. What is clear is I don’t need to know “why” before learning “how.” wim does a different, but related method that he developed.

      Very exciting to hear from you. Please stay in touch.

      Ray

  16. Alex Stoilov says:

    Ray, I have a question.It is not related to this article but I could’n find anything about in your blog.I wonder what do you think about WATER.How much should we drink daily.They say our body is 70 % water,and we should drink at least 3 litres per day.But I cannot imagine a Primal man walking all day long with two bottles of water.Although I had experimented with different quantity.Last week I had been drinking 6-7 litres of water for 3-4 days,and I think my body release the unnecessary.But I don’t know if this is healthy.What is your opinion?

    • admin says:

      Alex

      you can drink too much water. It is called Hyponatremia and it can actually kill you. Basically it dilutes the electrolytes in your blood stream and causes an imbalance. Like dehydration that causes these balanced nutrients to go to high, over hydration causes them to go too low. 2-3 liters a day (woman-man) is about enough. If you do physical activity and sweat or are in a very dry climate this would adjust up.

      I was drinking about 1 gallon a day when I did my thermal loading and it was between 34-37F. Was just sipping on it for 3-4 hours in the morning from a large container that always kept ice in it. My goal was the last sip to be a small ice cube that I chewed as the very last sip.

      Hope that helps.

      Ray

  17. Michael Pinter says:

    How do you pronounce your name? Is it Cro-nice or Cro-neese?

  18. Tim Steele says:

    This is my first comment here. I am very interested in the cold and diet. I live in Fairbanks, Alaska and have plenty of cold to experiment with as well as a steady supply of wild caught fish and meat.

    Have you read Jack Kruse’s latest blog on Cold+Ketogenic Diet = Optimal? I was wondering if you’ve ever had your telomeres tested or would consider taking Jack up on his challenge to test your telomeres? Telomere testing does seem to be the gold standard on how well your body is faring with the life you are throwing at it (diet, exercise, supplements, environment, etc…)

    Great job on the website and blogs!
    Tim

    • admin says:

      Thanks for pointing it out and yes I did. He’s got a lot of things in there I agree with and some things I don’t. I have no idea what cold training he’s done, but I just spent a week with wim hof at his home in Amsterdam. He and I finally got hours and hours to compare notes.

      In some sense, wim has accomplished what neither Lance or Michael have done. Do you know anyone that’s run a marathon without training? Know anyone that has completed it in the desert without water? Climbed Everest to 25k feet in shorts, no oxygen and no shirt? (had to go back because of the foot injury from 3 months earlier running half marathon barefoot at -40). Numerous world records and direct injection of endotoxins with no symptoms.

      The one mistake many make is the assumption that diet is the primary influence on fat (beta oxidation) vs carb/protein (glycolysis). It’s interesting to see people lump fat/protein together, because of “meat packaging” as a food when in fact protein is actually digested similar to carbohydrate through gluconeogenisis (more on next post).

      Wim can tap into fat burn beta oxidation like no other I know and does so as an extreme “athlete” that doesn’t train.

      I’ll come back to all of this, because I too have a ton to digest from our around the clock adventures the last week. jet lag is setting in and I gave some mild cold stress to catch up on!!

      Telomere testing is definitely on the bucket list!!

      Thanks tim!!

      Ray

  19. Tim Steele says:

    I can guarantee cold exposure alone does not predict great health. A trip to our Wal-Mart will prove that fact! The diet is key. I think when you marry diet, fitness, and cold good things can happen.

    The average mean temps here in Fairbanks are below 0 deg F Nov – Mar, with plenty of negative 40’s. I have been working out minimally clothed outside this winter and have seen tremendous results. I still have 2 months of cold weather this year and plan on hitting it hard next winter, too. I would love to share my ‘cold-air’ experiences with you, as I see you are a ‘cold-water’ kind-of-guy.

    Isn’t Holland awesome? I lived there from 88-91 when I was in the USAF.
    Tim

    • admin says:

      Of course not. Neither Cold exposure nor exercise will fix the obesity problem.

      That is why I’m spending so much time with food. You can’t out-exercise your mouth. At the same time, living in a cold environment says nothing about exposure to mild cold stress. People avoid the cold and can even bundle even MORE when living in a modern world of ubiquitous heated environments. What is shown in the literature repeatedly is that mild cold stress (one example 27C/80F swimming) and caloric restriction (nutrient dense, calorically poor diet) are the only two things that have cause demonstrated, repeatable life extension in animals.

      I have three years experimenting with both. I see the same indicators in terms of health biomarkers and weight control.

      I have to finish amino acids and then one more post on the gut. The foundation is here and I’ll return to thermal loading. It does not have to be winter or even cold to benefit from mild cold stress. It’s called mild for a reason. It will work best with a nutrient dense diet, but has some impact with any diet. It will trigger physological changes that impact all the way to the immune system.

      You will see the results of your effort and just know it doesn’t not have to be extreme to be significant – it builds. The value of extreme is to know that your body can tolerate it, not an advocation of repeating it all the time. Anyone can do it. No one is genetically “cold natured” or “cold all the time.” These are symptoms of too much tolerance for excessive heat in the same way obesity is the signal of too much tolerance for excessive calorie.

      Calories do count. They don’t count as presented on food labels, because food labels are marketing hype, not science. People that say otherwise want to simply tell people addicted to excessive calorie that it’s okay and not thier fault. Genetically we know better and the light at the end of the tunnel is that these two techniques, caloric restriction and mild cold stress work amazing together.

      Keep good notes. Do an experiment – try a nutrient dense diet along with that incredible environment you have around you. You’ll see amazing results.

      Ray

      (yes…Holland was AMAZING. want to go back soon!)

      • Tim Steele says:

        Sorry to do this to you, but here’s my story:
        I’m 46, male, 5’10, 168lbs. I spent 21 years in the AF, never worked out, ran just enough to pass annual PT test, always just below max weight, but BMI showed overweight.

        I retired in 2004 at 200lbs and promptly gained 20lbs. Within a year, I was on meds for hypothyroid, high BP, high chol, high trigs, and gout. Within 2 years I had fatty liver, high fasting glucose, and developed heart arrythmias (PVCs). Then they wanted me on diabetes medicine.

        I was doing EVERYTHING they asked. Low fat, whole grain, cardio (when I wasn’t having a gout attack), but kept gaining. I got up to 250lbs in 2008. The diabetes was my tipping point. I started starving myself and walking a lot and got to where I would bounce between 200 and 220, but still had a pile of pills to take and gout was every 4-6 weeks.

        I discovered paleo (Primal Blueprint) in Sept 2010. Cut out grains, fruit, sugar, vegetable oil, and started eating nutrient laden meat, fat, veggies, offal, bone broths, etc… Within 6 mo I was down to 180, off most meds, and feeling great.

        Today, I’m 168lbs, I still take Synthroid but I think that will change soon. I still have heart PVC’s, but I think they are related to the Synthroid/thyroid issues. Other than that, my cholesterol is awesome, BP is awesome, feel great and workout daily.

        I have been on a ketogenic diet most of this winter, but will start adding starch as soon as we get a little more sunlight. I exercise daily with pushups, pullups, squats, walking, and hill-climbing/sprints.

        I started exercising in the cold and broke a nearly 6 mo plateau at 175lbs.

        I love that you self-experiment and test. I would love to see you try a seafood heavy ketogenic diet (a la the inuits) next fall as daylight wanes and keep it up for 6 mo. It would be really cool if you had some telomere tests before and after.

        Thanks for letting me spill–I promise, no more novels, but I will try to chime in every now and then. I plan on reading all your blog posts in depth over next couple weeks.

        Thanks!

  20. Alex Stoilov says:

    I don’t think Ray will ever try Ketogenic diet.And it is worthless to do it.If you follow this blog you should know that the key to health and lean body is micronutrient-macronutrient ratio,not protein-carb-fat ratio.

    • admin says:

      Alex

      I think you’ll see that Tim is doing experiments and those comments are welcome as I am not “advocating” as much as I am trying to redefine the building blocks. I think that you are correct in your assessment that it IS about nutrient density and one issue that we have to deal with is this bad habit of labeling foods with macronutrient labels such as protein, carbohydrate and fat.

      My resounding question is can we get to a level of caloric restriction that is ENJOYABLE through food choices and sustainable in social settings. That has been my focus and I think the answer is yes.

      Really like the thoughtful dialog. Over a year and no one has been on the attack.

      We really need a forum…I need to get someone to deploy it and do some moderation as I don’t have the time right now.

      Ray

  21. Tim Steele says:

    I don’t label myself a ‘ketogenic dieter’, I’m eating this way, this winter, to test a theory. So far, it’s worked well. My thoughts turned to ketosis when I read about the Inuits who thrived on a diet of fish and marine mammals. They only did this in the dark, winter months and in the spring ate migratory fowl and plant shoots, then later berries, seeds and other carb sources as summer progressed. On March 21st, we will have 12 hrs of daylight, my diet will change then going toward a diet like Ray is eating on June 21st, when we have 24hrs of daylight.

    Not advocating what I’m doing, just doing it and testing key markers.
    Cheers!

    • admin says:

      Tim

      Exactly. I do want you to do testing and I think that when you go nutrient dense, you’ll see a more sustainable diet. I too had great results when I ate the way you did, but did not see my blood work do well. I also gained the most weight in my life after drifting off the diet and eventually swelled to 230 lbs.

      This is exactly the right kind of dialog. What I want you to do is pay attention to some of the words. When you say nutrient-rich meat, it’s not really the same definition that I am using.

      I think when I get to describing the eating paradigm, you’ll see exactly why your current eating habits are working and perhaps, why there will be a difficulty sustaining it over the long haul.

      Great stuff!!

      Ray

  22. Tim Steele says:

    I’ve been reading the blogs, about half-way through 2011 already. Some real pearls in the comments! One question – Do you have a book or e-book? I kept seeing references in your early blogs, but can’t find one on the site now. What is “Fuel the Burn”?

    I’m all about sustainability! Someone gave me great advice about exercise–“the best exercise is one you will keep doing” Same goes for the diet. And, living in a c-c-c-cold place like I do, I intend to make the cold work for me, too.

  23. Alex Stoilov says:

    Tim it’s my fault,I didn’t understand you are experimenting.The last 6 day I am eating only veggies and some roots,nothing else.The first 3 days i didn’t loose a pound,I think because I was ingesting no more than 600-800 kk a day and my body thought I was starving.The next 3 day I increased the calorie intake with nuts to about 1200-1300 kk per day and I have lost two pounds of my weight.But I’ve lost lean muscles too.I think I should take 1-2 days of overfeeding to reset my leptin levels and prevent muscle loose.The next week I am going to experiment with breakfast of eggs or meat and dinner only with veggies.I am at that point of body composition where my only problem is belly fat.I don’t even have love handles.I think my problem is not the calories but the hormones,crtisol and leptin.

    • admin says:

      You are over thinking this and indirectly are still trying to juggle “protein.” The body simply does not work that way and the vegetables you are eating HAVE amino acids. So do potatoes and rice. If you want to lose bodyfat you can minimize starches as they are more empty calories (but more nutrient dense than meat/fat).

      Just eat enough calories. Within a week (unless you are 2% body fat) you have plenty of energy. The body does not tap into muscle for fuel when you have it’s a tertiary substrate for energy. The mitochondria react to what is in the blood. . Even at 10% bf a 220 lb/100kg man has 77,000 kcal of stored energy. That’s about 30 marathons worth of energy.

      If you eat enough calories, you’ll have sufficient amino acids and remain nitrogen positive (meaning excesses amino acids in the digestive tract get converted to fuel through gluconeogenisis).

      Don’t mix the fuel sources. You don’t need fuel now unless you are extremely low or at your ideal bodyfat. If you keep filling the tank, you’ll never move the gauge to empty.

      Ray

  24. Alex Stoilov says:

    Yes, I understand perfectly that.But I cannot ingest enough calories for reseting leptin (over 2000).Right now I am 175 lbs with 12% bodyfat (most of it around my belly) and I look very thin,and with smaller arms.May be I am a little glycogen depleted,because I eat only broccoli,onion,mushrooms and not ingesting enough starches to meet my daily needs.

    • admin says:

      Are you hungry? What are your goals? Do you want to lose the belly fat to gain abs?

      Stop trying to hit a magic number. When I measure resting metabolism rates of men I sometimes get numbers that are 1500s. Unless you’ve dumped most of the oil, I’m sure your getting plenty of calorie. Glycogen depletion would happen only if you’re doing lots of cardio. Even then you’ll still recharge with sufficient calorie intake.

      Also note that when you leave a calorie sense diet the sensations you feel are not “hunger” (headache, weak, aches, irritable). These are withdraw symptoms from calorie depletion. They are normal and like any addiction go away as the body readjusts. I don’t think you’re taping into muscle mass other than transient water for hydration. Hydrate well.

      Ray.

      • Alexandra Road says:

        Hi Ray – I just “discovered” you and love your blog!! I like your distinction between hunger and calorie depletion! When I am weak and irritable I think “food will solve this”… when in fact the “wrong” foods may make me even weaker and irritable (mainly fructose).

        I have experimented EVERY SINGLE diet you can think of (I’m 33 and been dieting since I was 11 years old – a young gymnast). I am not overweight but I can’t find a balanced body weight. I can fluctuate from 52 kg and just 14% body fat, to 65 kg with 22% body fat.

        My conclusion is: I am just a food addict, and no diet (even the high protein diet) makes me eat less…

        Having said that, I always suspected the cold showers helped. Legs are my problem area, my upper body is quite skinny.

        Do you have any data on females?

        Also, after my workouts (cardio + resistance training), I have tried 10 mins steam room followed by a 5 min cold shower, repeated x 3. Similar effects. Fat loss has been incredible. Something must be switched on and off with this extreme heat + cold shocks combo. In fact I discovered that this little trick eliminated food cravings for most of the day – would I do this in the morning, I would not feel hungry until dinner time. Have you ever tried that??

        Thanks for all the good science! I am a pub-med geek too!

      • admin says:

        Thanks! and welcome…

        Keep moving on through the posts and get caught up.

        There are PLENTY of females hanging out here and successful. For some reason they don’t comment as much, but I get emails, so I know they are reading 🙂

        I absolutely think you can succeed and I have something coming out in a few weeks to help you get there.

        Ray

      • Alexandra Road says:

        Thank you, Ray!!

        I read somewhere that women have around 34 billion fat cells and men around 25 billion, and that when we gain fat, existing fat cells simply expand up to five or six times their size, like a balloon gradually filling with water.

        If only I could keep my 34 billion fat cells to a healthy small size, I’d be the happiest woman alive!

        Can’t wait to hear about your new plan!!

      • admin says:

        If you’re going to wish, just wish that 20 billion would vanish – LOL. I agree, but I think that the things I’ve been putting together will be both practical and people will be able to choose any level of health within our current ability, from thin to longevity, that they desire.

        Glad to have you here.

        Ray

      • Alexandra Road says:

        LoL Talking about wishing… Bruce Lipton and Joe Dispenza try to make sense out of the mind/body connection, spontaneous healing and modified epigenetics. It is difficult to measure scientifically but they make a lot of sense. Have you read some of this?

      • admin says:

        I have and it is a dangerous, slippery slope. I don’t study cognition or neurochemistry in detail and likely carry around some of the same generalizations I do about many interesting, but not well understood subjects. I’m fortunate know some people that are the world’s best. There is a negative downside to many marketing experts gaining unprecedented access to isolated facts and creating poetically beautiful stories. These people hang out in multi level marketing, hospitals, food industry, sports, and even governments. Great stories can be wonderfully motivation and yet completely fictional.

        People are absolutely swayed more by how information is presented than its underlying truth. In our case here, I don’t care that I disagree with “the world” about protein, because there is absolutely no one that can present current evidence that what I’m presenting here is wrong: our body requires amino acids to synthesize proteins (muscle tissue being a small daily percentage) and those indispensable amino acids are available from a variety of sources.

        My goal when I began was to understand not how to LOSE weight, but why I gained. Soon thereafter, moving towards optimal healthy became my goal. There are many opinions about health and nothing is currently set in concrete, but it’s not moving as divergently as marketers convince people it is.

        t.s. eliot has a great quote:

        We shall not cease from exploration
        And the end of all our exploring
        Will be to arrive where we started
        And know the place for the first time

        It’s probably overused, but what I found out on my 4 year journey seems to fit well within his notion of humanity’s exploration gene. What I will caution you to think about is the fine line between brilliant innovation and flashy showmanship. Sometimes it’s very hard to separate. I have chosen to dig in deep on the macronutrtients and with it, have teamed with some first class scientists to vet the ideas. It is submitted to peer review and it will tested in laboratory conditions. I might be wrong, but I don’t think I am.

        Use what you need to motivate, but know that what you chose to put in your mouth every day has more impact on health and fitness than all the exercise, supplements, and mediation combined. That being said, the mind is a powerful tool even if it is not clearly understood. Sometimes too much information is worse than not enough, especially when it leads one to destructive thinking.

        Ray

      • Alexandra Road says:

        Ray – your observations about protein couldn’t have come at a better time in my life…

        I did the Metabolic Typing test (£350 to fill in a silly questionnaire, mind you, and get some tips from an MT Advisor). The results showed I am a “fast oxidiser” (whatever that is, no science behind it) and a “protein type”.

        From my approx 20% protein intake a day, I upped it to 45%… plus 25% fat, for 8 weeks… Most days red meat (here in the EU/UK cattle is hormone and antibiotics free, unlike the US – that gives some peace of mind).

        Let me tell you, I nearly chocked by eating so much meat. I could just not digest it anymore. My skin turned purple and rusty (before this, I had a lovely skin complexion), my teeth would hurt chronically from all the chewing, and on top of that I GAINED 5 kgs!! Metabolic Typing promises of fat loss without calorie counting, decreased hunger and increased energy are a complete fallacy. But that’s me. For the past ten years I have spent tens of thousands of Sterling Pounds in Dieticians, Harley Street Endocrinologists, Allergists, Intolerance testing, Detox treatments, Celebrity Personal Trainers, NLP, Health Club fees and the universe of what’s available on weight loss… (talk about self experimentation) to now go back to square one: the only thing that I know really works is caloric deficit!!

        PS yesterday I had my first EVER cold bath (not shower)… jeez, that hurt!! But felt so invigorated afterwards. I’ll start tracking my measurements this weekend.

        PPS Other than cold thermogenesis, CR/IF, not too much protein and limited dairy, is there anything else I should do to increase my success rate?

        Thaaaank youuuuuuuuuuu!!

      • admin says:

        …and as you have found out, like most schemes, it’s bunk.

        The truth is far less sexy, but WAY more effective.

        Ray

  25. Alex Stoilov says:

    My goals are: 1. Health. 2. Visible abs. 3. Some muscle. I don’t think I am hungry.I don’t have problems with hunger,I can adjust to any type of calorie intake without problems.During these 6 days I haven’t done any kind of workout except brisk walking to my job place (40 min a day).I still cannot used with the idea that I will not loose muscle while I don’t ingest meat.Today I am going to do a brief and intense workout and see how I will feel tomorrow.And by the way,the last two days I wake up 2 hours earlier and feel fresher than when I was eating high fat.

    • admin says:

      Abs are 100% bodyfat loss. Everyone has abs just can’t see them. Remember if you’ve been eating excessive protein your body isn’t as efficient at extracting amino acids as it just burns through them. It will get more efficient at scavenging *essential (indespensible) amino acids* as time goes on.

      Perhaps think o it this way: of the 20 amino acids you need, half your body makes itself. The other 10, you get through diet. Only about 3-4 of these are lower in relative concentration (e.g. Methionine) in plant sources. So at MOST would be only deficient in 3-4 amino acids (two are conditional and aren’t really used) and protein in life (plant and animal) have all, but a few are in different proportions.

      So it might sound ridiculous to say, ” I feel like need more methionine today so I won’t lose muscle mass.” one out of 20 or 4 out of 20 are not going to invoke immediate, massive muscle atrophy.

      So think of insulin, a word we all throw around in diet. It’s peaking. It’s falling. It’s a protein. It has 51 amino acids. When it falls it doesn’t go back into the “insulin sack” it’s processed by the liver and urine (urea is a nitrogen compound formed by break down of amino acids). Liver has your back. It’s keeping those amino acids in the blood ready to go – not your mouth despite how much you think you can ingest.

      It seems so incredibly obvious that If the main “source” of essential (indespensible) amino acids are animals that don’t eat meat, then probably we wouldn’t need to eat it either. Again, I’m simply framining this idea of completely unnecessary and inevitable confusion caused by the protein carbohydrate and fat conundrum.

      Ray

  26. Alex Stoilov says:

    I have been eating a lot of protein for the past two years.I need time to adjust with my knew “settings”.It seems that a muscle doesn’t need neither protein or carbs to grow.It only needs amino acids,vitamins and minerals.So all the stuff with pre and post – workout shakes and big meals is nonsense.A muscle need progressive overload,enough aminos and rest to grow.And if the liver keeps the aminos and the body doesn’t rely on the mouth,I can train in the morning and eat in the evening without worrying about the “1 hour postworkout window”.And I think that people with over 20 % bodyfat shouldn’t eat at all during the day and only veggies with some starch at evening.The big problem with all kinds of diets is that they restrict calories but still ingesting fuel in the overfilled tank.I have being on almost every diet the past 10 years and was allways restricting the macronutrients and eliminate the micronutrients.I wander if anything else have to be said about the nutrients and the human metabolism.It is so obvious (thanks to Ray) : eat only micronutrients untill you are satisfied with your bodyfat % and then eat enough energy from natural food to satisfy daily requirements.Everything else is hormones.Well may be I am not completely right but these are the basis.

    • admin says:

      Let’s be clear. Your muscle needs a source of amino acids (plant or animal protein is fine) and CALORIES (Can use protein, carbohydrate or fat). Unless you are eating pure protein, pure sugar, or pure fat, you are probably getting other micronutrients. Protein is the least efficient fuel, hence the rapid weight loss even with excess. Fat is the most dense fuel and easiest to go to excess. Starch is probably the best solution for worry-free consumption – if you don’t load up on meat/fat/dairy, which makes it REALLY easy to overeat.

      The rest is ok. I think when you load up on the vegetables you’ll get the Micronutrients (including amino acids) you need and then you can add back “energy” as necessary to keep from running deficit. Training on an empty stomach will help with that last stubborn body fat – as will regular thermal loads.

      So focus on more dark, leafy greens (cruciferous vegetables) like kale, brussel sprouts, bok choy, broccoli, cauliflower, Rapini, watercress, etc… You can eat intermediate “energy” foods like squash if you’re still trying to lose body fat. You can add starch (rice or potato) if you need to crank it up – but careful, it will slow your fat loss down because of the extra “energy.” Again, watch the oil in recipes – it adds up quickly and has an impact on the feed forward responses of the small intestines.

      easy.

      Ray

  27. Alex Stoilov says:

    Ok,it is all clear to me.I am going to give it a try for the next month and see what will be the results.Now I am going to educate myself about thermal loads.

  28. Tim Steele says:

    I had a great workout this morning! Air temp -10 degF. Did squats with 100lbs on my shoulders, 50 pullups, walk/jog 15 minutes. Wore only shorts, hat, gloves and shoes. Skin temp on trunk and legs was 62deg at end of workout. I used to be able to get it down to 50 degrees, but I think I have really increased my circulatory flow to the skin with repeated exposure.

    Breakfast: 4 homegrown chicken eggs, 4oz of moose I shot last fall, all cooked in coconut oil. Won’t eat again until dinner tonight.

    • admin says:

      Good thermal load. If you are trying to shed bodyfat, avoid calorie density 2-4 hours after cold exposure.

      Think about it. You are eating lots of animal fat…why not eat “your own” instead?

      Ray

  29. Alex Stoilov says:

    I have a question.After your posts,it turns out that energy intake is not relative to strenght gains.If someone wants to deadlift 300kg he should practise the movement constantly and progressively adding weight to the bar.He needs enough energy to lift the bar,he doesn’t need stored energy.So he should eat at maintenance level or a little surplus.Why are then powerlifters so fat?They say they need every gram of calory to lift more weight.But more energy doesn’t meen more power.It doesn’t matter if they are 12 % or 30% bodyfat,if they have trained enough they should be strong enogh to lift the bar.

  30. -shadow- says:

    This guy could sure us your help Ray

    http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_20089450

    I hope your book is coming along for the rest of us too. I can’t wait to read it.

    • admin says:

      Yes. I guess it proves that calories do count. I’m betting he didn’t do that with cruciferous greens, bulbs, and tubers.

      So sad and yet here in the south, it’s all too common.

      Working on it…

      Ray

  31. Tim Steele says:

    Please do a blog on Dr. Jack Kruse’ theory that Ketogenic Diet + Cold Adaptation is the optimal condition for humans.

    http://jackkruse.com/cold-thermogenesis-5/

    “It appears the U.S. Olympic swim team and Lance Armstrong got the message too before any of their competition here in the US or in Europe. It completely explains why they were able to do things some humans previously could not accomplish. It maybe why people still accuse them of cheating. We all heard about Michael Phelps eating escapades by being able to eat larger amounts of calories daily routinely in his training for the Olympics! Most scientists at the time said the NBC report of Phelps feat was not possible. Ray Cronise was one of those scientists. Well, by conventional calorimetry studies it is impossible. This is why many scientists were lost. They forgot to look under the right rock for the reason it might be true. I can assure you Phelps and Lance Armstrong learned what I learned about leptin and about cold. They used this knowledge to become world class athletes, and I used it to reverse my obesity.”

    • admin says:

      I’m going to keep moving forward on my work. I’m sure he’s a passionate guy. He lives less than 2 hours from me. He’s obviously not read anything I’ve written or tried to contact me. He’s basing opinions on misquotes in the media – even says NBC (it was ABC). I did not assume what Phelps did was impossible. I reacted to the fact that it contradicted what I learned from the diet industry – the apparent calorie paradox and the myth of exercise.

      I’m working with people, like wim hof, that do the unexplainable. It was my application of what the DIET INDUSTRY taught me that was a contradiction, not my biochem textbooks. They got it right and they not only explain what Wim is doing and my weight loss, but they also lay out a foundation for a diet very different than he’s recommending. They also explain why that diet works.

      I don’t know about you, but If I can master running a marathon without training – I’d like to do that. I’ve seen first hand some incredible feats. For the record, wim happened to be a vegetarian during that time. I don’t think that is requisite, but it shows how little is known out there.

      I’ll stick to conventional peer-reviewed literature and then a lot of N=1 science. I like self experimentation and I’m well published science, so I know how to do it correctly. I’ll learn when I’m wrong – of course that’s the only time anyone learns and some are never wrong.

      There’s so much to write about and already it’s taken 4 months to lay a foundation contrary to some of what he’s saying that I don’t want to debate. I just want to do.

      I suspect when wim is visiting me here we could all just get into a cold environment together and see how he does (just kidding). He’s probably a great guy and I welcome collaboration.

      I’m easy to reach. The thousands if people following here have high expectations and I’d rather take the time to get it right.

      Ray

    • admin says:

      …FYI just remember how many times I have said cool, not cold. Also you should know that Wim’s core temperature goes UP during extreme cold exposure. This is verified both rectally and by swallowing a temperature transmitter.

      There’s no relation to what I’m doing with mild cold stress and medically induced hypothermia. We don’t allow our core body temperature to fall – we want it to remain strong and boost metabolism.

      The “rate of living theory” was contradicted with mild cold stress in mice. our cells never “see” the cold with the exception of the skin. What happens as a response to perceived cold is internal, measurable, and has known genetic pathways (Sirtuins).

      So stick with mild cold stress. Wim and I are finalizing some details. I’m doing a 30 day adaptation experiment. Personally, I don’t think the ketogenic diet is the way to go, but I can explain it thermodynamically and it does induce weight loss. Then what? I think there is more, but it really doesn’t matter as the mild cold stress can work (to the best of my knowledge) on either. One is probably going to yield better resistance to chronic health issues. We’ll see.

      Ray

  32. Tim Steele says:

    I didn’t realize you two lived close together, hope I didn’t strike a nerve. Dr. Kruse is who led me to this site with links in his blog. His comments about you have not been disparaging, to my knowledge.

    I sprinkled a couple links to this site as well on a couple of paleo sites. I think your approach will be better taken by most of the people I see ‘doing cold’ than Dr. K’s. Your TED Talk is out there everywhere, I hope you can capitalize on this!

    My prediction is that everyone will be offering the latest Cold Thermogenesis Diet Plan this summer and people will be throwing a lot of money at dangerous schemes. It would be a shame to see the grandfather of it all lose out. I definitely think that if you and Dr. K could somehow team up you’r be unstoppable, him with the evolutionary science and clinical experience and you with the mainstream nutrition, fat-loss approach.

    I will keep my mouth shut from here on out!
    Tim

    • admin says:

      LOL!

      No…PLEASE speak up. I am not the least bit bothered. I am a stickler about getting the facts straight, so I think that that is something I should point out. I just didn’t want to debate nutrient-dense vs ketogenic here as I want to get BACK to thermal loading. I just needed a basis to undo some of the carb-o-phobic thinking that is out there. It’s fat + carbs that is the problem. Either alone is ok, but fat puts you into a very far from equilibrium state in terms of the substrate metabolic energy. Protein is even worse (hence it’s great for losing weight).

      What I know is that many people have difficulty with calorie, not because they are hungry, but because they have withdraw from excessive calorie.

      I wish I could have worked faster, but had no idea that this would take off. Wim and I have some great stuff. People will copy, but they can’t clone us and we really do know what we are doing.

      Thanks for spreading the word and I am not “against” anyone.

      Ray

  33. Alex Stoilov says:

    Ray,you said that we have about 2000 cal stored as glycogen enough to run a marathon.But marathon is a low intensity excersize.Are we going to first use the glycogen (as it is supposed to be used for high intensity workout) or directly use the stored fat for energy?And in case I eat only veggies,I will be glycogen depleted most of the time.

    • admin says:

      2000 calories is enough for ~75% of marathon and amateurs “hit the wall” at 20m/31 km. trained runners use beta oxidation of fat and you have enough to run 100 miles. As well,fat oxidation does not form lactic acid in process.

      Traditionally acclimation worked by volume – run more. Bike more. Swim more. Wim does not train and acclimated to a fat economy by cold stress.

      Plenty of carb-loaded runners use fat for running. The best runners adapt in the beginning of the run.

      That’s what I’ve been working on along with the amazing links with longevity through nutrient density.

      Ray.

  34. Alex Stoilov says:

    So,while we are on a nutrient density diet and trying to loose fat,we should use low intensity excersize (run,bike,walk,swim) and use beta oxidation of fat.Therefore we should keep our glycogen for liftting something heavy or sprints.Is that true?

    • admin says:

      exercise as you normally would. Note that MOST people over train. Read 4HB on minimum effective dose. I don’t think it will make a difference. WHen you restrict calories the energy MUST come from somewhere. The problem with starvation is that it comes at the expense of other vitamins/minerals/phytochemicals. Ground flax seed has a little more than 3:1 omega 3 to 6 ratio. Chia seeds are about the same. Either can provide a good source of omega – 3 and then you need to “digest” your excess body fat.

      slow is said to promote “fat burning,” but honestly if you are thermal loading regularly, I think you’ll already be in that regime. Once you cut back on the calorie and continue daily mild cold stress, the fat will come off easily.

      Ray

  35. jesse marandino says:

    Hi Ray,

    I just joined the blog today to learn about cold exposure stuff and happened upon this post about protein… But, my question is, how did you decide that lower cholesterol is actually better/healthier? You make logical statements in other cases, e.g. more chlorine is not better, i.e. there is an appropriate amount of something and it isn’t always going to be an extreme value. The second logical thing you have done is toss out lazy thinking about protein in favor of totally diving and finding what is really known at a deeper level with regard to the structure of foods. So I’d like you to answer why those two logical conclusions don’t apply to cholesterol, or are you going to eventually explain why you are towing the party line on that?

    As a bonus I wanted to bring up the point that we don’t know what we don’t know with respect to what makes up foods. Pretend that 50 years ago we would have believed that we knew what all nutrients humans needed and started synthesizing them. Now we look back and realize “they” didn’t know about quite a few vitamins and things such as phenols and anti-oxidants. Well, we are they aren’t we?

    Thanks for taking the time, I’m including a reference to a study about cholesterol that you may find interesting. In the meantime I’ll read about the thermo stuff and check back here to see if you’ve responded.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11502313

    Jesse

    • admin says:

      Jesse,

      Thanks for joining. Unlike many of the other blogs you are following, I’ll say – I don’t know. I really don’t.

      That being said, I’ll lay out a foundation as we move forward and it’s all loosely based on the reported biomarker “risk factors” widely accepted.

      I know some of these indicators MUST be wrong. I don’t know which ones.

      Why? Because we collected the data on the population of one of the most unhealthy rises in human diet in history. I don’t think that surveying our ever increasing sick population and calling the “normal percentile” healthy is a good start, but that’s what I have to work with. Are we truly low in vitamin D? How much Vitamin A or E is enough? Is it harmless to gorge our body with bioactive substances like vitamins, just because they aren’t regulated and yet the percentage of protein:carbohydrate:fat is enough to predict health?

      hmmm, I’m not ready to believe that.

      I attended a lecture 3 weeks ago by Dr. Gilbert Welch, Veterans Administration and Dartmouth University. In his new book, Over Diagnosed, he explains why early diagnosis always is a bias towards survivability. Survival ALWAYS rises following cancer screening – independent of treatment. Over Diagnosis is most likely the RULE, not the exception. Early diagnosis creates many new patients, but treating asymptomatic “numbers” is not without consequences.

      So your point is very well taken.

      Does this sort of logic follow (short term) all of the diet schemes out there? I’m not sure.

      What I am certain of is that the diet industry at large (including the USDA, Physicians, Nutritionists and pick-your-favorite Guru) gets protein, carbohydrate, and fat wrong. It is a an automatic bias in the data to tell people to manage protein, carbohydrate and fat. I wish I didn’t have to spend this much time on this subject, because it takes me away from some TRULY spectacular results on mild cold stress. The problem is that longevity will absolutely go hand in hand with diet and mild cold stress. Instead of creating an unreachable optimum at first go, I want people to ease into the correct direction.

      Thanks for posting and thanks for the reference – I will post a few more in about two more blog entries that you’ll be interested in.

      Ray

      • jesse marandino says:

        Thanks Ray. Yes, declaring that you don’t know or are not sure is quite a breath of fresh air! Thanks for the thoughtful response. And I’m devouring the rest of the site re: cold exposure.

        Back to lurking…

        Jesse

      • admin says:

        It’s a powerful thing to say…especially if it’s the truth. Remember, the cold exposure will work with any nutrient plan. There are optimal diets and the jury is still out on what is “optimal,” but ultimately, you get benefit of mild cold stress no matter what you are eating – it just might not be weight loss or longevity.

        lurk away!

        Ray

  36. Dee Health says:

    It’s alot to take in but sounds like you are saying that we need amino acids derived from the protein, not the protein itself. I take BCAA before I workout because a friend who is a trainer said it will help prevent muscle loss, I am also lower carb dieting to lose fat. I don’t quite understand the difference b/t branched chain and unbranched chain amino acids, and how it all fits with your protein analyses.I saw one site that referred to branch chain amino acids as “bad” proteins— so I hope my taking them with wt training and swimming is a good thing? But it’s all a bit confusing. Is there a certain formula for amino acids that is best, and could this be a complete replacement for eating meat/fish, without losing muscle. I look forward to any books you write, especially the e-book you mentioned in the comments above.
    Dee

    • admin says:

      Hey Dee

      Thanks for following! first, relax. It doesn’t have to be super complex and I know that this stuff is a little hard to follow. I don’t think you have to take “any” supplements to make progress. Take it easy, they aren’t going to be magic bullets.

      When you read the next post (part 2) I think you’ll better understand it. What we derive from protein is amino acids and some part of those are branched chain amino acids (Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine). If you take a look at this graphic, you’ll see them all in the “essential” column. What that means is your body can’t make them and they have to come from diet.

      They want to sell supplements, which I understand, but you can eat nearly anything and get sufficient levels for what you are doing.

      For example, even rice has per 600g:

      Lysine – 2.0
      Isoleucine – 2.2
      Leucine – 4.75
      Methionine 1.91
      Cystine 1.17
      Phenylalanine 3.10
      Tyrosine 3.23
      Threonine 2.16
      Tryptophan 0.69
      Valine 3.31

      Now, you don’t have to eat 775 cal in rice every day, but it proves a point. If you did nothing but eat this “carb” you would have enough protein coming in that you would be “nitrogen positive” and your body would burn/excrete the excess. I didn’t take supplements and didn’t eat any animal protein (including dairy) for 14 months and experienced no muscle mass loss.

      The point of all this “protein chatter” is that if you were eating nothing but potatoes (or rice), you’d have enough. Now, you would call that a “carb” and I am saying that’s the problem. You don’t have to manage proteins, carbohydrates or fat. You have to eat a caloric deficit. It’s kind of fun to ask people, but just try once not eating for a day. It’s interesting. Drink lots of water, maybe even tea, but just don’t eat. you should be able to do it fine, but if you get weak, headaches, lethargic, those are all signs of caloric addiction, not hunger.

      We both know if you are trying to lose fat, you have PLENTY of luv-handle jiggling stuff you can “consume.” Probably enough to run a marathon or two. the problem is you aren’t tapping into it because you keep topping off the tank just as soon as it is “time.”

      All of this complicated talk is more about people selling “goop” and less about progress. You can become thin and trim on Twinkies if you manage it, but I don’t think that is the most healthy choice.

      So, relax and take some solid steps. The next post on amino acids is going to help and I might put a little more out there on BCAA so you can follow that too..

      Ray

      • Nick Slobodchuk says:

        Ray,

        Like you said in this article you have to digest food in order to get the amino acids to the muscles. So I suppose you can’t get the amount you mentioned from 600g of rice. On the other hand, taking extra BCAA’s doesn’t hurt. Does it?
        I have a question with respect to BCAA’s. All BCAA supplements contain only 3 of the 10 essential amino acids you mentioned. So what about the other 7 essential amino acids?

      • admin says:

        I’ll be coming back to this, but BCAA (valine, leucine and isoleucine) are metabolized exactly like fructose in the liver. Excessive protein is a problem and I think you’ll see more of this in the future.

        Remember that even fructose is fine if you are glycogen depleted. The problem comes when we are replete. In that time, many of these excess “fuels” become hepatotoxic. The liver is not designed to store fat and that’s what’s happening.

        Ultimately, glucose is the best choice and that leads us to starch. While I question the “protein scoring” a quick search shows that it’s easy to get complete protein with a starch like potato. Those that fall short are missing the very amino acids we ought to be minimizing.

        Ray

      • admin says:

        Btw, to go further – getting the “correct amino acids is just not something you need to worry about. It’s simply not that difficult. We survived for millions of years before they were even all identified.

        Manage the big stuff and this will take care of itself. Here’s an idea, if I wanted to design a diet deficient in amino acids and I ate real food, sans meat/dairy, how would I do it? Seems that diet would need to be even more extreme and the how long until it actually mattered? The body’s efficiency with ingested amino acid tracks the quantity. If you have huge excesses it burns them as fuel. As restriction occurs, the body becomes more frugal.

        Oh? And where did the RDAs come from in the first place? The truth is we don’t even know. If people want to attack “the calorie,” then those other numbers are VERY made up. The represent average of human consumption during the very time we were driving towards this unhealthy situation we have today.

        Make sense?

        Ray

      • Nick says:

        Ray,

        I haven’t read all your blog posts yet, but so far I’m missing the point. Do I find the information on this blog educational? Sure, I do and I plan to continue reading this blog.

        I read several of your articles concerning nutrition and I don’t quite understand what point is being made in them. Can a human survive on just potatoes and rice? Sure he can. But will it help him reach his goals? Not necessarily. Is eating potatoes or rice the most efficient way to increase the muscle mass or get a lean body? I believe there’re better ways to do this. If these are not the goals then indeed one doesn’t need to worry about such things as fats, carbs or protein.

        I think I’m starting to understand what you’re aiming at. You’re describing nutrition with respect to losing fat by using hypothermia. Thus, the assumption being made is that the person doesn’t go to the gym. Maybe this is why I was so puzzled about the statement that a person doesn’t need to count proteins and amino acids in his meal.

        I haven’t read your articles concerning fat yet. But I sense, there’s some useful information for me there as I’m becoming more interested in keto. I’m currently following Tim Ferriss’s slow carb diet without the PAGG suplements. This diet is sure not painful at all and, as I understand it, this is why Timothy promotes it. Yet, I don’t like the lack of medical justification for such a diet. That’s why I’m becoming more interested in keto.

        Probably, my questions will go away if I read your other articles.

        -Nick

      • Nick says:

        Instead of commenting other articles I’ll comment here. I’ve read your other articles and it seems to me that what you’re telling is that in order to lose fat one just needs to spend more calories than he consumes. This looks right to me, except what about the muscle loss which occurs during such starvation? In your blog post about fat you mentioned that, first, the body consumes the fat stored and after its reserves of fat are empty the body starts reducing the muscle mass. From what I’ve read in other sources, the process goes simultaneously and the body loses both fat and muscles.

        It also seems reasonable that when the body has high percentage of fat, it burns fat faster and the reduction in the muscle mass is not that significant. On the other hand, when the fat percentage drops down the muscle loss will become more significant. Thus, spending more calories than consuming does not necessarily lead to a six-pack. Muscles get eliminated too.

        Hypothermia rules. But what is said about nutrition in this blog is just not very practical or convincing. Restricting the intake of calories is simple – just eat less. But I guess this approach will stop working once body fat percentage drops to say 15%. More interesting would be to find a way to lose fat without losing/with insignificant loss of the muscles.

      • admin says:

        Yes. This is basically right. The vast majority of people are trying to lose body fat. If you want to be anabolic, you’ll have to eat many more calories and I suspect at that point it’s not too important what you eat, so long as you continue to work out (biological stress to the muscle) and get plenty of recover time. The amount of extra calories will be dependent on your workload and the vast majority overtrain.

        As for the concern about atrophy, perhaps there is a small amount, but remember there is quite a bit of dietary protein in potato and rice. It’s enough to remain nitrogen positive (an excess). Once you get in the ballpark of your ideal weight, calories can be ramped.

        This is not the only way, but far more people are looking to lose excess body fat first and then put on muscle mass. I just decided to take on the myths of protein carbs and fat, because it’s so pervasive and the vast majority of what is written is simply wrong and inconsistent.

        Once you reach an ideal weight, it seems health is more important than vanity, but that notion changes with age. When health is a goal, a nutrient dense, calorically poor diet is probably going to end up taking first place.

        Hope that helps. You’ll have to start back in the late summer or fall to follow my obsessive challenge of nutritional status quo.

        Ray

      • Nick says:

        Thanks for the replies. I’ll keep reading.

  37. Alex Stoilov says:

    Dee,the best amino acids are those in natural food.BCAA in suplements cannot replace neither plants ot meat.The most important to understand is the protein/carb/fat mistake.You have to read the Ray’s articles about macronutrients at least two times and than if you have question,shoot.

  38. Tim Steele says:

    Hello again, Ray; I’ve made it through all of your blog posts. I’m interested in your dietary recommendations, could you give a brief outline of how you think folks should eat? Calories, macros, types of foods, etc…

    Reading through, I get that you track nutrients over calories, but this style of eating is a big change from what most dieters do.

    Do you have an e-book, Fuel the Burn? How do I get a copy? Maybe the answers are there.

    • admin says:

      I’ve created another site for that and I will go through it once I get back into the Thermal Loading. I would like a few of you to try several ways and in that we can see how it plays out.

      I haven’t finished the e-book as Wim and I had some things to work out for the masses. That is in progress and I *might* talk about diet some there. Remember, I think there is application to a paleo, slow carb, or vegan diet – both will benefit as will a list of other equally valid calorically restricted approaches. What the mild cold stress does is independent, but related.

      I do think there will be a convergence, but for right now, it is more important for the maximum number of people to do the entry level things, than for us to nit pick over what is “optimal.”

      Make sense?

      Ray

      • Tim Steele says:

        Cool! I have a feeling many more people will be very interested in what you are saying soon.

        One question that keeps popping up on other thermogenesis blogs is, “How do I know when I’m cold adapted?” or “Exactly how much cold exposure do I need?” I’ve never seen a good answer to these questions. People don’t want to spin their wheels, especially with something as uncomfortable to get into like a cold shower!

        Just saw you posted Protein 2, I’m off to read it now.
        Thanks

      • admin says:

        It’s more of a journey than a destination. I think that you’ll see many things improve such as sleep, endurance, and overall well-being. Cold is something you still experience (do does Wim Hof), but it’s no longer with fear or misery.

        As for physiology, the increased circulation in extremities and the body not being so shocked all feel fantastic. Increased beta oxidation results in less lactic acid buildup, so post workout recovery is much better.

        Ray

  39. […] Pass the Protein – Part 1 On February 21, 2012, in Blog, by admin […]

  40. -shadow- says:

    I’ve been working with a little thermal loading by taking cold baths. Half an hour in a bath of the coldest water the tap will dispense. I measured it today. I go in at about 16C (61F) and get out a half an hour later at about 18C (64F). I’m not sure if it’s necessary, but I try to keep my neck and upper chest under the water as much as possible, as that’s where I understand much of the BAT is located. I’ve found that for some time after after I get out of the tub I experience mild, shivering. Is this the “shivering thermogenesis” I’ve read about?

    • admin says:

      Yes. You go through stages. When you measure O2/CO2 as an output you’ll see the levels going up and down as a response. That’s just heat being drawn out of the body and its immediate reaction. Metabolism goes up to a peak and then settles.

      The stages are first muscle “tone,” which is signals sent out throughout the body to slightly flex the muscle. The induces excess waste heat (remember about 80% energy is waste heat). At the same time blood is withdrawn from the skin (think of it as shutting down the heat radiator) through vasoconstriction. Then at some point shivering sets up to make up excess.

      BAT is activated along the way and after up regulation by an uncoupling protein that tissue begins to produce heat instead of ATP.

      Shivering should be controllable so be certain you haven’t had excess niacin in energy drinks or you might have conflicting signals that cause confusion in the system. I actually feel warm all over after cold.

      Take it in steps.

      Ray

      • -shadow- says:

        The whole process isn’t bad at all, except for the getting wet part. Thought I’m sure being submersed in water is much more efficient, using a cooling vest would be a whole lot more conventient.

        By the way, I checked the safety issue concerning time and temp before getting in the water. The air force seems to have some good data on the subject. I certainly didn’t want to pass out and die of hypothermia in my own tub. Wouldn’t that be embarrassing?

        I have a queston. Am I undoing my cold tubbing by wearing sweats afterwards? I keep my home cool so I’m pretty sure I’m experiencing mild thermal stress when there, I just don’t want to defeat my most major effort.

        Thanks

  41. Alex Stoilov says:

    Ray, I have a question.I have already understand the most important about food.In case of loosing fat we have to eat only micronutrients.Right now I am eating only veggies.But I ingest no more than 500 cal a day.I loose some fat but I think my body is in starvetion mode and it keeps the fat.I don’t feel weak,I have energy but the fat is coming off too slowly.I think my metabolism is slowing down.Do you think we should have refeeds in a low calorie nutrient dense diet.And how often should they be?

    • admin says:

      I think this “metabolism slowing” is a catch all story for no change. Let’s do a little test. If you were isolated on an island with nothing to eat and plant of water, do you think your body would still want to store fat? In fact the metabolism RAMPS due to norepinephrine when fasting/short term starvation (see: Zauner, et al.)

      I have measured personal boosts in metabolism that ramp up and down with nothing more than stepping in out of cold water. All of these are an order of magnitude of what would be described as “metabolic depression.” We also know that the other extreme can work as well and that binge eating (Alternate Day Fasting) can ramp metabolism through diet-induced thermogenesis.

      If you are moving and thermal loading, you will tap into body fat. Don’t overtrain.

      The calories for life MUST come from somewhere and the body prefers fat over muscle tissue (protein). As long as you are getting some source of the 10 amino acid in your diet – you will be in positive nitrogen balance. You see the numbers for the “rice diet” study I put up some time ago and summarized for Dee. They also varied the nitrogen (protein) composition where chicken supplied 0%, 15%, or 30% of the protein.

      There are others out there, but simply put, it’s going to be fairly difficult for you to dig into muscle mass in the time it takes to shake the body fat. The question is how far do you want to go and what is the standard you are using to know when you get there.

      remember, also there it only takes .75 lbs of fat to run a marathon. It’s energy dense for a reason – it’s to store energy.

      Ray

  42. Alex Stoilov says:

    What about leptin and his major role in bodyfat regulation.It is well known that in times with very litlle calorie intake,leptin levels drop and that leads to slower fat oxidation.
    I want to reach 8-10 % bodyfat and the standard I am using is my abs.If they are visible that means I have reached a good level of bodyfat.The problem is that I think nutrient dense diet is not enough.Eat veggies 2 months and you will rid of the belly.It can’t be so easy.I think hormones are killing me.Especialy cortisol,but I am not very familiar with them.I will continue to eat only veggies for the next 5 days and see the results.

    • Majikza says:

      There are tests for cortisol. The 24 hour saliva test is the cortisol gold standard from what I’ve read.

      Stopthethyroidmadness.com has some great information on the HPA(Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal axis) The book by the same name written by the websites creator has some good detail on it.

      I also highly recommend the book Iodine by David Brownstein which talks about many issues related to Iodine deficiency. Iodine is very important for the whole HPA axis as well as many other parts of the body.

      • admin says:

        I am not a big supporter of this approach. I think most of the thyroid issues are NOT deficiencies, but in fact related to chronic over nutrition. IT’s part of the slippery slope that ends up in supposed adrenal issues etc…

        The only difference between drugs and excessive supplements is drugs are tested. If you are eating properly, endocrinology-based medical conditions fade away. If you are not, pills, powders, screenings and procedures only treat the disease.

        We have gone too far in both the blogosphere and healthcare education with molecular biology.

        If you have a deficiency it is your diet and we don’t need animal products to correct it. We can tolerate some, but excessive caloric density – simple sugar, refined grain, fat…and even >gasp< branch chain amino acids/protein are all an issue.

        it's simply not this complicated to be properly nourished. Food is not a 24 hour emergency and neither are nutrients.

        Ray

  43. Tom Pentzer says:

    Mr. Cronise,

    I’m a newcomer to your blog and I’m thoroughly enjoying what I’m learning so far. I do have a question when it comes to comparing the a human diet to that of other species. Have you read “The Critical Role Played by Animal Source Foods in Human (Homo) Evolution”?
    It’s written by Katharine Milton, a physical anthropologist. In the paper she outlines gut morphology, feeding strategies (say, a fox versus an elephant), and how they affect each other. It’s a fascinating read, and I dare say that it’s not a “position” or “justification” paper regarding eating meat. If anything, it’s just a fascinating look into how animals like cows and humans do well on the diets they evolved with.

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/133/11/3886S.long

    I’m sure you’re busy, but I’d love to hear your thoughts.Thanks for all you do!

    Tom

  44. Alexandra Moya says:

    Amazing research 🙂

  45. Alexandra Road says:

    Hi Ray,

    Is it true that 1 lbs of fat doesn’t equal 3500 cals? Others say it’s 3555 cals… and this person says none is correct: http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/1lb-does-not-equal-3500-calories/

    Is there an accurate number, or are we all just talking about approximates?

    Thank you!

    • admin says:

      3500 is fine. No one can calculate their intake to this level. 55 cal/3500 is a 1.5 % error and our expert, Zoe, throws out the 87% number (the proportion of adipose tissue that is actual lipid vs water/protein/mineral) and there is variation there too… In addition lipids used for the Atwater conversion factor ranged from 8.93 up to 9.5 when measured.

      Only in the last year did I have equipment to measure metabolism accurately. It’s opened my eyes and I can tell you that this 1.5% issue is really irrelevant. Calories count, but counting calories is futile.

      Food is way more important and the information needed should be easily understood by a 6th grader – fruits, vegetables, etc… When we switched over to the language of nutritionism – protein carbohydrate and fat – we failed.

      Ray

      • Alexandra Road says:

        Thank you, Ray! It’s pretty cool you equipped yourself with the tools to learn about this cool stuff first hand.

        I once read a very short news article that talked about the inaccuracy of calories in “hot” food labels. Or even our own calculation of calories in cooked foods is wrong. Apparently the way we count calories is based on raw ingredients (+/- water content). But, even if you take water content / evaporation out of the equation, cooked ingredients appear to have a more dense calorie content. Is this correct to say?

        Given that you spent a whole summer with a calorimeter, plus your last few years’ experiments, I was wondering if you could shed some light into this issue… so next time I read the label of my favourite “Innocent” soup (UK brand), I’ll know better before the spoon goes into my mouth!

        Thank you so much for replying to my silly questions (still catching up!).

        Best,
        Alex

      • Alexandra Road says:

        Hi Ray! Sorry to reiterate my question, but does the process of cooking add more calories to food (aside water evaporation + volume considerations)?

        I’ve been trying to get this answer online but I find so many unverified hypothesis out there… I rather ask the scientist 🙂

        Thank you!

      • admin says:

        Sometimes. In the cases of starches, cooking makes more of the starch available.

        Cooking is not something to fret about. I can tell by your questions you’ve overcomplicated eating. Michael Polan got it right – eat food, mostly plants, not much.

        Ray

      • Alexandra Road says:

        Thank you for your reply, Ray! it makes sense, I read somewhere if you microwave an apple it will have more cals than its previous raw form.

        And yes, I confess I am guilty of over-complicating eating… Like most young women out there do…

        Today’s pop-health makes us feel so inadequate, it’s ridiculous… Don’t use microwaves, buy organic/pesticides free, eat grass fed, don’t eat canned foods, avoid frozen vegetables… argh!

  46. marisa kelly says:

    Amazing video. Truly astonishing. Excellent post. I appreciate the education you are providing me! Great stuff! I definitely was thrown for a new loop learning about protein this morning! It is definitely aiding me in changing my definition of food lately..

  47. Alexandra Road says:

    Hi Ray! Not sure if you watched this… http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32

    They say if we had to slaughter animals ourselves, most of us would be vegetarian…

    • admin says:

      Welcome! Alexandra

      I’ve seen it. For me, I don’t pay much attention to this sort of thing. It’s not that I don’t care, but I grew up on a farm (vegetable/tobacco until 11 and then we had a cattle farm through high school graduation). I’ve fished and hunted in the past as well. So, I do know where my food comes from and that’s not at all what persuaded me to try to minimize animal products in my diet. It was because I had not seen the results I was looking for doing other methods.

      Weight loss was a BREEZE on many different kinds of diets. I can do it Paleo, Atkins, Body For Life, Zone, Vegetarian, Vegan…the list goes on. Keep in mind that weight is only a biomarker for chronic disease; it travels WITH disease, but does not cause it. Visceral fat (organ fat or intra-abdominal fat), as opposed to subcutaneous fat (below skin), is far more dangerous and can even effect people that don’t appear overweight at all.

      What I find with elimination of many animal products is that it eliminates caloric density. There are a lot of studies that link various animal foodstuff with certain issues, but I see very few (none, really) that say increased fruits and vegetables are an issue. That being said, most vegans and vegetarians are not moved by health, they use health as a method to push a cause. I know this, because I have been attacked by vegans for “not being vegan enough” to which I reply, well, I’m not eating any more animals then you and besides, I’m not a vegan.

      Oreo Cookies are vegans and there are LOADS of obese and unhealthy vegan/vegetarians that have excessive refined grain, oils, and simple sugars in their diet.

      My goal is simple – figure out the thermodynamic advantage we can leverage to get the most out of our health hormonally and genetically and concentrate the foods, not pop pills, to maximize our longevity. In other words, I want to live long, die fast.

      So, If this sort of thing motivates you, I guess. It seems like just another fear mongering tactic that goes along with a long history of threats and imagery Humans have used in the place of rational dialog.

      I am GLAD you are here and look forward to this next year.

      Ray

  48. Alexandra Road says:

    Ray! Beautiful answer, you are both practical and an inspiration!! thank you!! You do help us keep an open mind!

    Re plant based diets, I find it interesting that science is now talking of exogenous plant based gene modifiers (mircoRNAs) that pass through our digestive system and directly affect our genetic expression in certain organs/tissues. This little clip summarises it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtwTEHW8_8k

    And these are the studies:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419103/
    http://www.nature.com/cr/journal/v22/n1/full/cr2011164a.html

    Merry Xmas, and a wonderful 2013!!

    Alexandra

    • admin says:

      Btw, I am not OPPOSED to people not eating animals for personal ethical reasons, I am just not persuaded to do so myself. There are lots of questions also about animal testing and certainly we wouldn’t have nearly the information on biology without it in the past. I don’t want to sidetrack to this topic, but I actually did work to develop an alternative to the draize test (placing cosmetics and toxins in the eyes of restrained rabbits and monitoring lesions formed) while still at NASA.

      IN our case we used single cells (Tetrahymena pyriformis)that worked as a stand in for the rabbit eyes. It actually worked well on a number of toxic elements tested. We also wrote a chapter for a book, Advances In Animal Alternatives For Safety And Efficacy Testing, that covers a wide range of work.

      On the FUN note, probably the funniest work was what we did with Spiders on Drugs. You’ve probably all seen the YouTube spoof of this work. Bet you had no idea that I was one of the people behind this crazy idea. Just follow this wikipedia link (ref 1) down to the bottom and you’ll seem me listed – LOL. This continues to be a huge hit as a give away for Students subscribing to New Scientist Magazine.

      Now…THAT was a side track.

      🙂

      Ray

  49. David Orman says:

    With all due respect, that cholesterol level would be considered too low.

  50. […] on “muscle loss” particularly urinary nitrogen. As we learned in Passing the Protein (part 1, part 2), urea is the metabolite of amino acid metabolism and so one can track loss by collecting […]

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