calories burned with kettlebell swings - boost metabolismYou can’t out-exercise your mouth.

It is a fundamental truth and a brilliant evolutionary strategy.  Exercise has many interesting impacts, both positive and negative, but if you’ve been chronically obese, I want to encourage you not to start here. Not only are you putting your heavy, out of shape body into an increased risk of injury, but until you’ve been successful in the one exercise that ALWAYS works, you’ll simply eat your way through any progress.

What is this magical exercise? Isometrically clench your teeth in the presence of fattening foods and excess calories.  It’s necessary to control appetite, not “fuel your body” with even more energy. Those shakes are only helping to the degree they are displacing higher calorie food. Take a look at any study that shows statistically significant effects usually has paltry overall results (normally far less than 2 lbs a week).

It seems many emails, blogs and conversations all end up with the word cravings sprinkled on top.  Somehow we are to believe that because we crave something it’s an indication of need.   Our cravings are about as good of indication of nutrition as the food pyramid or the Hot and Fresh sign at Krispy Kreme. I’d argue they are practically worthless and craving is a term of addiction, not survival and health.

You can’t out-exercise your mouth.

Let’s take a look at a few exercises and some of the claims about metabolism and I think it will be clear that exercise has many of benefits, but burning fat is not at the top. I apologize in advance that this is going to get a little technical, but it’s absolutely necessary if we ever want to expunge the nonsense from the weight loss and fitness industry. This was the most difficult blog to write to date, because I really want everyone to understand this concept. It is so critical and I hear EVERYONE throwing around the M-word as if it is undeniable fact.

Wired For Truth

When Steven and began discussing a proposed article (read Wired article here), he kept coming back to the same question: how can we know that cold had a certain impact on your progress?  I guess the simple answer was that I changed so few variables that the impact was self-evident, but the far more certain way is to measure. My goal was to lose weight back in 2008 – not write a book, a blog, interviewed in magazines and TV, or give a talk.  I didn’t really care much about ANY of this until June/July 2009 when so many others, like Tim Ferriss, made such a big deal out of the results.  I just did it because it made sense to me and it did have a solid technical basis. I didn’t know for certain that it would work.

Since then a combination of defending the results and being encouraged by scientists I enormously respect to take it further has fueled the crazy self-experiment obsession.  Along the way I haven’t given much thought to proving a point as much as understanding the underlying science. That gives one a certain intellectual freedom, because it doesn’t matter what the answer is as long as it is the truth.

We now have seen in Muscling Part 1 and Part 2 that metabolism has two important components: RMR and RQ.  The first, RMR,  is a short term measure of a person fasted at rest and that measurement (typically about 15 minutes) is projected over the next 24 hour period as an estimate  of total energy should be used if no additional activity occurs.  It’s in a sense a minimum, or floor measurement and your total expenditure will likely be higher over the day. RQ (respiratory quotient) is a breath by breath analysis during the period measured of the % Fat and % Carbohydrate being utilized.  It tells us how much of each fuel is being used. Like RMR, RQ is EXTREMELY sensitive to activity and is constantly changing to accomodate the body’s fuel needs.

When Atwater and others performed their experiments a century ago, they were not only collecting the carbon dioxide exhaled, but also the heat that evolved from each test subject.  This would be direct calorimetry, because the heat evolved during this oxidation (burning process) is related to the fuel burned.  Not only can it be measured – it can be measured very accurately with simple thermometers of the day.  Today, indirect calorimetry, measuring O2 consumed and CO2 produced,  indirectly determines the energy dissipated and it matches what they measured over 100 years ago.

Over a century…that’s pretty incredible.

So if someone is talking about boosting metabolism, lean mass burns more than fat, or  post exercise/eating metabolic boosts, remember that one can’t simply repeat these things and it suddenly makes them true. We actually have to verify that it is as stated.   The simple question one should ask is: how do you know?  So let’s blow a few more metabolism myths out of the water.

What’s Your RQ?

alcohol lamp used to calibrate RQ and RMR on an indirect calorimeter

Alchohol lamp used to verify RQ and total energy burned

We’ve learned RMR, or metabolism rate, during any activity isn’t enough to know anything about fuel source.  You might be burning alcohol, carbohydrate, fat or protein – you don’t know. While your diet does influence short term calorie consumption (within hours of the meal), it really has no impact on the bigger picture of what happens for the remainder of the day or what  fuel is selected for your exercise of choice.

To assess that, we need RQ.   This you will remember is a ratio of the CO2 produced to the O2 consumed and the number is very specific to the type of fuel  used. Let’s use for example an alcohol lamp burning grain (ethyl) alcohol for fuel.  Alcohol has an RQ = .67 and when I drop this alcohol lamp into a bucket and sample the air continuously  that’s exactly what I measure – a straight line at .67 and a RMR of 5,074 kcal per day.  That lamp fire is a little over the energy equivalent of two people to put it in perspective   If I weigh the lamp before and after the experiment, I can in fact verify that not only is my system displaying the correct RQ, but also measuring the overall energy accurately.

By using calibrated gas mixture of Carbon Dioxide/Oxygen, a calibrated syringe to measure volume displaced on each breath, and alcohol flame to assess the fuel consumption rate, we can KNOW what is happening before/after a meal or before/during/after an exercise.  This isn’t new, in fact we learned in  Muscling Part 1 that this exact technique was used back in 1790 by Lavoisier and  later by Atwater and others after the discovery of the macronutrient fuels, protein, carbohydrates, fats, and alcohol. With all biological systems there is a certain variability above us, but we got these measurements correct. How we decided to use them is a completely different story.

It should come to as no surprise to anyone that reads this blog that the terms “protein, carbohydrate, fat” are not the arbitrary “food labels” your, government, food packager,  dietitian or fitness coach chooses to place on the items that constitute a meal. In fact it was the process of making these measurement that I came to realize how absurd these labels are unless your goal is to over eat calories in pursuit of some magic macronutrient “ratio” or every nutrient inclusive, “balanced meal.”    Either way, I am pretty certain when we  measure activity, meals, sleep, mild cold stress, etc… using indirect calorimetry that we can know with some accuracy and precision how much energy the body is using and what it is burning to get there.

Taking a Swing at Kettlebells

I will take some “heat” for this, so let me begin with the same disclaimer I’ve given on exercise in general.  We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even though I don’t think exercise is a particularly good way to lose weight (in fact it mostly slows it down), does not mean I am opposed to it or think it is unhealthy.  Likewise, I love kettlebell swings, so please don’t take this as some sort of assault on exercise or even kettelbells in particular. This just happened to be an easy target. I could have used nearly any “fat burning” activity aerobic/anaerobic to make the point.

Anyone that’s performed these exercises will tell you that they are a great physical exertion, but what happens when you have a $30K machine that let’s you peer into what makes that swing FEEL so good? What’s really going on?  I want you to take a minute and Google:   kettlebell metabolism

You should get MANY hits.  WOW. look at those very first ones:

“A short and intense kettlebell workout will crank up your metabolism for another 38 hours.”

“This will elevate your metabolism for up for 31 hours.”

“If you want to burn more fat, improve your fitness, and ramp up your metabolism, try doing kettlebell jumps at the end of your workout.” 

“Kettlebells can help to stimulate a metabolism because of the way kettlebell activities force a body response through balance challenges and resistance.”

…and so on

We KNOW it’s repeated over and over (I’ve said it, >gulp<), but I can tell you that it simply is not true.  If you are a personal trainer, a fitness blogger, or a writer, let’s take the time to verify what’s repeated. If we could just spend a year on correcting the myths, we’d all be better off. Isn’t everyone sick and tired of the contradictions?   Once again, I love kettlebell swings and have my own routine developed for post-weight loss physical conditioning (I am close to testing it out on a increased strength/fitness challenge after my next weight loss tests are completed in June/July).

Kettlebell swings - 20 sec exercise, 10 second rest, repeated 10 times.

Steven Leckart Kettlebell swings – 20 sec exercise, 10 second rest, repeated 10 times.

What’s the truth?

Let’s review that MOST people will post a resting RQ ≈ .85 and that corresponds to ~ 50/50 CHO/FAT ratio.  This means if you wake up in the morning and have a pulse, you’ll expend about half of your daily RMR calories from fat oxidation.  But what happens in explosive exercise, like the kettelbell swings I had Steven do?  First, here’s the exercise: a simple 20 second swing, 10 second rest period, repeated 10 times.   We began with a full RMR/RQ test earlier and then the test protocol had him standing still ready to exercise for 3 minute “starting” RMR/RQ.

I’ve tried to simplify the plot to highlight the changes in Steven’s metabolism. In this case we see  his cumulative calories burned vs time (red line). You can easily see when the rate  (kcal/min) changes by looking at  the slope of the line. The steeper the slope, the more energy Steven is burning in that period.

We see that he starts out during a 3 minute rest, or baseline period, and then the exercise begins.  He continues to exercise until the 5 minute mark at elapsed time of 8 minutes and then we look for recovery.  The blue dashed line I’ve added represents the calories he would have burned had he just stood there. The entire test is over in 20 minutes.

So let’s do a couple of  checks to make sure we are in the ballpark.  At the far right hand side you see the dashed line ends up at ~ 44kcal/20 mins.  An hour is 3 times this, so this would result in an RMR of 132 kcal/hour (3 x 44), or 3,168 kcal/day – quite a lot for a guy that is 5’7″ and 134.9 lbs.

But  that is correct, because his true RMR (fasted and lying relaxed) measured a couple of hours earlier was 1,984 kcal with an RQ = .80 and now he is standing and probably a little nervous before the test.   Here I want to demonstrate just how variable the number is we all call metabolism.  His total calories burned in 20 minutes was 70 kcal, but 44 kcal would have happened anyway, so the total burned due to the swings was 26 kcal –  a little more than a half teaspoon of coconut oil or a little under two teaspoons of table sugar.   When people (even me) do these hard calculations of calories in/out, note that the out portion can be widely varied.  We will come back to FAT/CHO burned, let’s continue with the metabolic “boost” everyone is raging about.

Follow the red line. You see it ramp up with activity and then as soon as he puts down the weight, he begins to recover. Your metabolism is dynamic and designed to conserve.  I estimate that the energy rate hits pre-exercise level about a minute or so after he’s done – worse case let’s call it two minutes.  Ok, but energy is only half the story, so let’s turn to RQ.

Where’s The Boost?

It’s simply not there in energy consume, but perhaps it’s buried in the RQ as raging, metabolic fat burning. Let’s take a look. You’ll see 4 sections and in each a box with RQ average for that section. These four divisions approximated when shifts in his RQ occurred.  He begins at RQ = .84 (47.2% CHO/52.8% FAT). During exercise this climbs to RQ= .98 (93.6% CHO/6.4% FAT) and then to an average RQ = 1.02 (100% CHO) during the recovery phase which lasts about 8 minutes. During this time his RQ is drifting down and by minute 16 he’s at RQ = .87 or (57.5% CHO/42.5% FAT).  We end the test at minute 20.

The truth:  His metabolism returned to normal after 2 minutes and his RQ within 8 minutes.  Sorry folks, no raging metabolism – it was news to me as well. We’ve been duped.

It’s not rocket science and exercise physiology has taught for a long time that these explosive energy modes are not driven by huge utilization of fat.   Elite endurance athletes burn more fat than the rest of us, but they typically don’t burn 100% fat during the activity. Volume training encourages their body to burn fat earlier into the exercise and that avoids the carb-crash when glycogen stores are spent.

So why does everyone say it? Why is it repeated, debated, instructed when it’s so easy to disprove?  Perhaps, sometimes people want to believe in something so much, they begin to use the words think and believe interchangeably and in doing so, avoid the thinking part all together.  Today, there are many similar examples I’ve found food, blood sugar, etc… and in time will demonstrate.  Internet has facilitated an explosion of fitness/diet bloggers and monday morning scientists that read a handful of papers, use many multi-syllable words, and back it all up with citations at the bottom of the page, but never measure. I guess it’s an intellectually toxic cocktail of incompetence and ignorance, but I’m afraid it’s no longer the exception.

One might expect this from evening and weekend warriors, but we hear this from degreed, educated, trained, and certified people as well.  I will admit I have said it before and there is simply no excuse for it.  I’ve spent the last four years in an obsession to get to the bottom of something that’s quite easy to understand once you get the memorized drivel out of your head.  It was an expensive “hobby,” but I’m prepared to change the lives of 10,000 people and I don’t intend on selling pills, powders, screenings, and procedures.  I am after real, measurable, demonstrable and accountable change for a more healthful life. In the mean time,  let’s just not forget:

You can’t out-exercise your mouth.

Chilling Truth About Cold Water

steven lechart wired magazine cold stress

Steven sitting at the bottom of the swim spa for a 20 minute immersion to measure calories and %FAT/CHO during an immersion test.

Swinging Kettlebells is not why Steven was visiting my home lab on that hot, humid summer day.  He was here to learn more about cold. By now anyone that reads my blog knows that I am not really an advocate of misery and lean toward mild exposure over longer time.  That’s simply not something one can easily test during a hot, Alabama August day and he was only here for 5 days, so we did the next best thing, turned down the thermostat.

I have an 8 x 14 ft Tidalfit swim spa that’s temperature regulated from 45F to 105F (~8C-40C) using an AquaCal heat pump.  Our goal was to compare 20 minute swims at 80F (26C), 70F (21C), and 60F (15C). We also looked at a 20 minute  jog at a leisure pace of 5 MPH. In all cases we wanted to bring the exercise level down a notch testing to what extent the advertised “fat burning zone” exists.

Finally ,we performed two immersions, where the goal was to “relax” as much as possible so that the cold portion of the contribution would be separated from activity.   At that time, my calorimeter was relatively new and so this represented the first opportunity to really dig in with a complete set of data keeping in mind the the foundational science is over 100 years old.  We weren’t really challenging old science, but rather adjusting the collective “mind hive” speak that’s resulted from people repeating incorrect, or generalized, “facts” over and over until it becomes widely accepted.

Let’s discuss the big picture here and compare/contrast swimming with kettlebells. Again, so as not to be misunderstood,  I am not suggesting kettlebell swings or weight lifting have no value. My goal is to focus everyone on misguided notion that metabolism, or lack activity, is the reason they are obese or even the reason the last stubborn “belly fat” is hanging around. As well, I want to assert that other than dietary intervention, most exercise is an activity revolving around glycogen and doesn’t really impact or significantly decrease your body fat levels.

We basically live in this realm of RQ = .85 (50/50) and exercise always moves that number UP not down.  Elite endurance athletes burn more fat and volume training makes it better, but for the average person, all of that sweating and jumping creates far more metabolic needs of repair and risk of injury than warranted by the amount of body fat consumed.

Simple relationship of exercise, calories expended, and metabolism

Simple relationship of exercise, calories expended, and metabolism

In THIS regard, a calorie isn’t a calorie – not because they aren’t equal, rather, because an activity may preferentially prefer one fuel over the other.

In every case of activity analysis, I want you to also remember this imaginary slope upward and it’s progress over time.  Before you begin, the energy expenditure you would have burned had you not exercised, could continue on for the same time at the gym. Now add exercise and your metabolic rate increases momentarily and then when you stop, it goes back to the original rate after some period of time.  During the increased rate of calorie consumption, our cells shift toward the glucose/glycogen economy unless one is completely glycogen depleted.

Swimming is actually fundamentally different from all other forms of exercise.  First, it’s not an activity of explosive power, it’s a sport of technique. I’m not suggesting elite swimmers aren’t powerful and explosive; sprinting can occur in competitive races.  One can swim leisurely and significantly reduce the exerted force, but there’s another prominent change in the thermodynamic balance: the rate of body heat loss to the water.  What we are doing effectively is pulling the heat from the outside instead of pushing it outward by revving our muscular engine and creating obligatory waste heat.

With that let’s turn once again to Steven’s cold tests.  I’m not going to go through all of them at this time, but I want to point out a few things that should become second nature. First, take a look at the “shape” of his curve swimming.  You see the same basic shape as in kettlebell swings above – the gentle slope, then steeper when swimming and finally back to the original slope.  Nearly all activity fits this general picture as did his 20 minute jog.  If we ramped up the swimming effort (or even running speed) that middle section would have progressively steeper sections, but it does return back to “normal” or resting at some point after and we demonstrated  it’s way less than 30 hours.

Remember that metabolism, or energy consumed, varies throughout the day, but the total energy is only HALF of the story and not even the most important half for most of us.  The number we are after is RQ, which gives indication of how much fat consumed in any given time. If weight fat loss is your goal, this is much more important.

Taking the Plunge

20 Minute tethered swim in 70F water

20 Minute tethered swim in 70F water with 20 min post swim recovery.

With swimming, there is a distinctively different signature on RQ. This was the middle case, a 70F (21C) 20 minute swim followed by ~ 25 mins of post swim monitoring.   First, you’ll see that Steven starts out just like any other activity and then he moves into the actual swimming phase with the increase in metabolism. Once finished, he gets out and recovers (on a HOT August day) while continuing to measure.

Swimming burned ~130 kcals, but what is really interesting is  RQ.  It starts in a normal range of RQ = .82 (40.3% CHO/59.7% FAT), rises during the swim to RQ = .98 (93.6% CHO/6.37% FAT), and then he begins the recovery phase.  There is a little twist here in that Steven was shivering for the first 8-9 minutes. Not violently, but definitely shivering (see video from WIRED article upper right)  and  we see a slight drop to RQ = .95 (84% CHO/16% FAT).  Then the shivering ceases and RQ falls to .75 (12% CHO/88% FAT) where it remains until the end of the test.

The numbers were almost identical minute by minute for a swim at 60 F and at 80F it looked much like one would expect for running or other activity.  Mild cold stress, as has been reported begins at 80F, but it requires longer exposures with less activity.  I didn’t repeat the same at 75F, but I feel pretty certain through other measurements that’s where the upper end of the temperature range is located.

We also did immersions tests and this also turned out interesting. First, I had him divide the 20 minute exposure into five sections sequentially immersing: feet, waist, hands, shoulders and head.  80F was somewhat uneventful as one might imagine on a hot Alabama afternoon – he smiled  way too much.  Now, 60F was way more fun – for me, not him. First, the the data didn’t have the sharp change in slope like all the others here, they were much more subtle. There was a change when his feet went in and it stayed constant until his shoulders went in and there was a larger change.  That’s where it ends, because we measured for a total of an hour, but 37 minutes after steven exited the pool his metabolic rate still had not return to baseline. RQ was a different animal.

Despite his sitting motionless for the entire test, RQ matched swimming, almost to the minute , the results seen during the 70F/60F  swims, with the exception of the “activity phase,” where RQ peaked at .88 (60.8% CHO/39.2% FAT) as compared to  RQ = .98 swimming.  Once he had overcome the 8-9 minutes of  shivering on exit, (probably felt like hours to him) he was once again down to RQ = .74 and remained here for last 25 minutes with no shivering until the end of the test at 1 hour. We don’t know how much longer it would have continued.

Final Thoughts

What does this mean practically speaking?  The sweet spot for swimming is likely somewhere in the 65F-75F range and you simply have to pick a temperature where you feel most comfortable. It’s best to swim at a leisurely rate – don’t push it.  When you get out of the pool – don’t jump in the warm shower or hot tub – that defeats the purpose of the heat deficit created by the mild cold stress.  I’ve seen data that suggest free fatty acids remain elevated for hours and it’s most likely the body’s upregulating mitochondria via UCP-1α using fat to produce replacement heat.  This might also explain and be directly related to the connection with exercise and the hormone irisin, which encourages new BAT growth  (see post:  A New Eye On BAT).  I’ll add that this is also why you’ll want to stay away from a high calorie meal in the window following the cold stress activity,  which could shift RQ away from fat and it’s best if you don’t eat at all. If you are going to eat, I suggest a high fiber, nutrient rich/calorie poor meal. That being said if weight loss is your goal, use a high fat diet of thunder thighs, beer belly and big butt as your primary fuel. It won’t go away until you metabolize it.

I think it should be obvious why one should abstain from exercise if you want to lose fat rapidly.  First, your muscles don’t atrophy overnight.  I am not asking you to lay perfectly still, just don’t do anything that looks like a repetition or makes you sore/sweat; living is enough activity.  Walking, going for a leisurely swim, or biking is okay, but don’t turn it into a race. Playing with the kids, throwing a frisbee or walking the dog all keep you active. Your body KNOWS it needs to burn fat on a restrictive diet and it’s not going to burn lean tissue just because it is there.

On the other hand, if you insist on tearing down tissue exercising, every time you do you are shifting the body away from fat burning (rise in RQ), post exercise recovery DOES require food to fuel the tissue breakdown/repair, and  the chance that you’ll maintain these needs/consumptions in perfect balance is low.  The more common tendency is to over eat.  No one I have coached has loss lean muscle mass, but certainly their apparent “strength” goes down. This okay, because there is muscle memory and a few weeks in the gym once the ideal weight is reached and you’ll be back to where you began.

The sports research we tap into when generalizing to the population at large was mostly performed with the idea increasing performance/endurance. For many of you that is a goal and not competing doesn’t win the gold. Exercise is an option for the rest of us.  The problem of course is that we’ve taken this information with a broad brush and painted it onto every person overweight and suggested this obesity pandemic is one of inactivity.  I don’t believe this is the case.  When one makes an informed decision about how they want to lose weight and has a choice between rapid weight loss without significant exercise or slower weight loss and risk of injury with it, then they are actually choosing.

On the other hand, blaming the weight issue on a slow metabolism, lack of activity, or avoiding the connection that one is chronically over-nourished, obfuscates the problem and frustrates the person trying to make a change. Finally, we have the ridiculous, ubiquitous metabolism claims bombarding us every day. Your metabolism likely isn’t broken unless you don’t feel a pulse and then it doesn’t matter much. You might have metabolic dysfunction due to chronic over nutrition, but that can be greatly improved, or completely reversed, with proper diet. Why have we all become obsessed with being “diagnosed’ with dysfunction as opposed to seeing the overwhelming evidence that our society is deluged with cheap, ubiquitously available, cheap food.  We eat too much – stop eating and you’ll see instant results.

This post is not gear toward elite athletes, or any competitive athletes at all. There are ways to exercise at lower levels of RQ. The point I am trying to make centers on the barrage of metabolic boosting claims and “fat burning zones,” which all disproportionately suggest that if a person is overweight, lack of activity caused or was a major contributor and more activity is going to fix it. The root problem is one of intake not output.  Either way, we need to all understand that no matter how hard we work, our ability to eat and the modern day access to enormous calorie sources must be taken into account.

I am certain that weight loss is a catabolic process and it’s a process of conservation, not excess.  If you want to run faster, jump higher and swim farther then you won’t succeed without conditioning.  Although after my two year exercise hiatus, I have been thinking about challenging that notion too.  Certainly there’s nothing wrong with exercise and many benefits, but fat loss, especially rapid fat loss, isn’t one of them.  You might say, but it makes me feel so much better and I would reply  you can get the same serotonin hit from mild cold stress in a contrast shower,  stop eating, get within striking distance of your ideal weight  as soon as possible and then resume exercise. It is a choice and it’s not the only way, but the myth of metabolism pushes many in a direction that ultimately fails.

That’s all for today. whew, got through it and I know I lost a few of you, but hopefully you’ll stick with it.

 

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Thanks!
Ray

 

 

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342 Responses to Muscling Your Metabolism (Part 3)

  1. Mike T Nelson says:

    Thanks for the great write up and using real data-awesome!

    I have to admit it will take me a bit to wrap my head around, and I will go back and read parts 1 and 2 before I have further comments (as you may have covered my questions there).

    Thanks, and more soon
    Mike T Nelson

    • admin says:

      LOL. That’s not a good sign because you have done metabolic cart-tests.

      I hope I didn’t blow this. If so, I will write another one to explain better.

      Ray

      • Tess McEnulty says:

        I thought that this article made a lot of sense, but if Mike doesn’t completely understand, maybe I didn’t actually get it. 🙂

      • admin says:

        Dr McEnulty….you get it – LOL!

        Ray

  2. Rodolfo Samu says:

    Yeah Ray… a lot of people maybe angry with you , but the real people the real interested people in this are definitely happy. Thanks for all you effort all your time and all your curiosity ! Thanks for the patience and amazing inteligence ! I got to tell you, I get stunned and amazed everytime you put an article out lol but that is just Amazing ! lol

    • admin says:

      Thanks!!

      Well the next chapter get’s even more fun. I’ve had a continuous glucose monitor now for a week. Oh boy…trouble is around the corner. You think this has stirred up some crap, well I am about to lay into the protein, carb and fat speak in a BIG way.

      Might do my first “crowd sourced” funding on here to notch it up a bit. I can tell you that food + glucose + cold spa + calorimeter = nerdgasms.

      Ray

  3. Mike T Nelson says:

    Hahah, it makes sense, I am just trying to put all of it in context with my background and think it through before I open my big mouth for fear my alligator mouth will override my hummingbird a$$

    Mike N

  4. Christopher Erckert says:

    Great Job Ray, ready to support you if you are ready for crowd funding.

    Quick question. What is the most accurate thermometer for the money when trying to measure water temp?

    • admin says:

      Chris

      You know, I don’t think it matters much. close is close enough, that’s why I gave everyone a 10deg F window. You can stick your foot in, if it feels “cold” enough that you have to just take the plunge to get used to it, it’s probably cold enough. You should feel an immediate tightness with just your food (it’s a body panic sensor like the hands and face).

      on crowd sourcing, I am mostly doing blood work, will upgrade to the Dexcom G4 and need sensors (~$80-100 each). I still want a thermal imager, but it’s not as easy for me to do that work in the summer here as in the winter (windows open). I will put together a post. I had to get this blog out and it was way more complicated that I had hoped.

      Ray

  5. Brad W says:

    Fascinating post. I will need to reread it a couple of times to make sure I’ve gotten it down.

    Typo: “Even though I think exercise is a particularly good way to lose weight (in fact it mostly slows it down)” …you probably mean “Even though I *don’t* think exercise is a particularly good way to lose weight …”

    I’ll be honest: this post was a bit hard to understand. I don’t have any great advice on how to make it more clear. But perhaps a start would be to make the subheads longer, more explanatory and less “catchy.” (ie, instead of “Taking the Plunge” maybe something like “Cool-Water Swimming — The Rare Exercise that Raises Metabolism?”)

    ie, maybe more “Tell ’em what you’re gonna tell ’em, tell ’em, then tell ’em what. you told ’em”

    Just a thought. Thank you for your fantastic work and the impeccable honesty you bring to it.

    • admin says:

      Thanks for catching that.

      I know I know…This is why it took so long in the first place. I would write a little and say, crap, this is complicated to explain, but it’s easy to understand. I started over three times and sat down this morning with a no-matter-what attitude.

      Perhaps some questions will bring it out and maybe I can do a summary on metabolism next. The short explanation is that all the time spent exercising pushes one away from fat metabolism and creates other issues in repairing the damaged tissue. This is okay if one is trying to build, but building and losing at the same time are competing activities that make BOTH less effective.

      Boosting metabolism for 31 hours, slow metabolism, metabolism crashes from skipping breakfast, eating late at night…blah blah blah are just all things we made up.

      I may make a few edits along the way, but probably not now! Thanks for the input!

      Ray

      • Brad W says:

        Got it. And smart to wait for the rest of the comments to learn more about how it landed.

        I will say this, though: The two sentences you just wrote (“The short explanation is that all the time spent exercising pushes one away from fat metabolism and creates other issues in repairing the damaged tissue. This is okay if one is trying to build, but building and losing at the same time are competing activities that make BOTH less effective. “) are fantastic. You might consider ending with them.

      • admin says:

        Okay. Lets just let them read down here to find it. Lol.

        Ray

  6. Brian Beaven says:

    nerdgasms, LOL!!! Great article Ray, can’t wait for the next one. I ready to support some crowd funding too.

    • Brad W says:

      Agreed.

      Ray, have you talked to Peter Attia and/or Gary Taubes about your work? They are looking to end the old wives’ tales via careful testing. I think they would be blown away by what you’re doing and might fund you via NuSI.

      • admin says:

        Not really.

        Gary Taubes book pushed me into digging more. I think he’s skipped over a lot and while not probably his intention, lead a lot of people down a rabbit hole. He’s a amazing writer and probably a great guy. I find his work persuasive, but not very convincing.

        No animosity at all, but I’m not sure it’s a fit. I remain open minded and once I take the next step and after my current work is published, that might be a good model.

        Thanks for the suggestion.

        Ray

    • admin says:

      Thanks Brian!!!

  7. Flavio Moreira says:

    Great post Ray!
    I would be curious to see these tests replicated with a subject on a ketogenic diet… Any guesses on what would be the results?

    • admin says:

      Yes. RQ still shifts up. You never go above 1.0. Maybe Kevin who follows here will comment as he did it while on Atkins years ago, but I plan to get someone ketogenic and an elite endurance guy here.

      On the other side of the coin, I have no problem getting someone non-ketogenic to stay ~RQ .7-.78 for months at a time using morning but diet. That’s for the next post. Ketogenic is another word that’s been twisted to mean something it really doesn’t and I plan to dispel that myth too.

      You don’t have to be ketogenic to burn fat. You don’t have to eat the storage organ of another animal or plant to use your own storage organ. You can’t out-exercise your mouth. These are simple ideas that are all easily testable.

      Thanks!

      Ray

      • Brian Beaven says:

        That sounds like a job for Ben Greenfield. Hook him up on your portable machine and have him run at various HR zones.

      • admin says:

        we have talked about it. I think I need him to visit soon!!!

        Ray

      • Kevin Jessop says:

        Ray –

        You are correct. It was difficult for me to have a RQ above 1.0 on Atkins, even maximal exercise.

        This is a great study Ray, the data definitely is impressive.

      • admin says:

        Yes. It’s hard to keep up with that part, but then again it’s great to see things exactly how it is expected (ignoring the popular group-think).

        I can’t imagine doing all of this by scrubbing CO2/O2 and doing periodic titrations! Add to it kjeldahl nitrogen (I had to so these back when we were doing ECLSS for space station. Between that and bomb calorimeter – two of the most boring assignments I had, I can’t believe now I wish I could do both.

        I might have to get a kjeldahl digestion and still on eBay. Id like to have the automatic one we had at NASA, but this way I could at least do nitrogen balance.

        Wow, these guys in the 19th century were incredible. I’m just pushing mouse buttons!

        Ray

      • Feral Boy says:

        “RQ still shifts up. You never go above 1.0”

        RQ can be above 1.0 – in fact, your data demonstrate it. During the post-swim shivering I see there are spikes up to about 1.35. The energy substrate possibilities are not limited to CHO and fat, and therefore divining the % of each substrate contributing to total consumption is not possible without additional data. For instance, by looking only at CO2/O2 ratio, any contribution from ketones would be nearly indistinguishable from that of fat. One would need to detect ketone-unique metabolites to further delineate the contributions. (The same goes for the other metabolic byproducts listed below.)

        As an (unlikely) example, if one were utilizing 50% fat, and 50% malic acid, the RQ would be measured as 1.0, i.e., the same as if one were utilizing 100% CHO.

        Assuming that the contributions from these other substrates are insignificant certainly simplifies matters, but I’m not sure what degree of accuracy it offers if you are seeing RQ>1.0.

        From Wikipedia:

        Name of the substance Respiratory Quotient
        Carbohydrates 1
        Proteins 0.8 – 0.9
        Ketones (eucaloric) 0.73
        Ketones (hypocaloric) 0.66
        Triolein (Fat) 0.7
        Oleic Acid (Fat) 0.71
        Tripalmitin (Fat) 0.7
        Malic acid 1.33
        Tartaric acid 1.6
        Oxalic acid 4.0

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient

      • Feral Boy says:

        I’ll just add that both fat and ketones are at the low end of substrate RQs (0.66-0.73), so if we are attempting to maximize endogenous fat-burning through minimizing RQ, then it’s certainly still a valid tool. As one’s RQ approaches 0.7ish, fat+ketone contribution toward energy usage approaches 100%. However, as RQ rises significantly above that the individual contributions from various substrates becomes less clear.

      • Kevin Jessop says:

        While that is true, there is research out there that demonstrates that by using RQ (or more accurately RER) we can see a shift of energy strokes from roughly 100% fat at an RER of 0.70 (less than that would indicate an improperly calibrated machine) to 100% CHO at an RER of 1.0.

        Of course, you burn keytones during all of this time. To account for this, we would have to have Ureic Nitrogen and then would have the amount of protein which is being consumed.

        Your main sources of fuel for your body are FAT and CHO.

        This is why Ray has displayed this information in the format he has. This protocol can easily be repeated and verified using other metabolic carts.

      • admin says:

        I’m not really sure where you are going with this, it doesn’t make sense to me. You’ve confused so many things, I’m not sure where to start. Under what biological condition do you propose these idealize ratios to occur? One can’t simply “will” a ratio that comes out to an intended number. RQ > 1 has nothing to do with substrate, but rather with limits of cell respiration and the body’s ability to break down lactic acid through bicarbonate buffering.

        Calorimetery looks at ratios of of heat to oxygen consumed (q) and in the range of fatty acids palmitic (C16), stearic (C18) or Oleic (C18, 1) and unless you are eating loads of downstream metabolic byproducts the heat evolved is independent of chemical pathway (Hess Law), so you can’t haphazardly pick metabolic downstream products and lump them in to get the answer you want, nice try.

        So let’s look at how easy this is to confirm for example with stoichiometry for palmitic acid (C16):

        C15H31COOH + 23 O2 -> 16 CO2 + 16 H2O + 10,040 kJ heat.

        That is 16/23 = 0.696

        Regardless, the respiratory quotient for fat is a average of the mixture and the difference in fat of the calorific factors Heat of Combustion KJ/g (Q), Oxygen Consumed L/g (a), Oxygen Heat of Combustion/Oxygen consumed (q) or Respiratory Quotient – all fall within a tight range of 4.63-4.68 kcal/l for dietary fats.

        The same is true for the 19 amino acids, all with slightly different heats of combustion and since they cannot be oxidized completely to CO2/H2O we use ureic nitrogen to peal it out. Now of the literally thousands of experiments done for the last 150 years, I’m not aware of any that come up with largely different answers and this is even when calorimentry is used (as opposed to indirect) and the actual heat evolved is measured not indirectly measured through O2 Consumption/CO2 production.

        This really isn’t controversial at all in the literature.

        Ray

      • Feral Boy says:

        I’m not arguing against your greater point, but when you have a (presumably this is the case) linear equation with X variables, you need X independent equations in order to solve it, right?

        In this case, we have contributions to energy production from CHO, fat, protein, ketones, alcohol, etc., as variables, but only two equations with which to solve them.

        You can calculate pure substrate RQs analytically, as you’ve just done above. My point is that you can’t necessarily go the other direction with a high degree of accuracy. A measured RQ of 0.7 could be the result of 100% fat, or it could be 95% alcohol (RQ of 0.67, you wrote in your post) plus 5% something else; it’s impossible to know without bringing other equations/measurements into play.

        Which, as I wrote, does not dismiss measuring RQ from being a useful tool.

        IF one can make reasonable assumptions, e.g., the participant isn’t drunk, he doesn’t have significant levels of metabolic toxins, he isn’t producing significant ketones, there is no significant muscle catabolism, etc., THEN CHO and fat contributions calculated from the resulting simplified (two variable) equation will likely be in the ballpark of reality.

      • admin says:

        I sent Jason home with a little TN Rye. I know where you’re coming from, but you’ll need to get out of that place, because its not as you perceive it hence, the reason I’m so against “protein, carbohydrate and fat speak.”

        There are just four macronutrients to contend with: ALC, CHO, PRO, and FAT. Alcohol we handle by limiting before test. Carbohydrate are a range of mono and poly saccharides with a pretty tight range. The same is true of Fat as I demonstrated above. We don’t deal with downstream metabolites, because they are part of the mix.

        The only variable that matters is Protein. The amino acids, again an average, are handled through nitrogen in urine. Since tests are all done fasted, we don’t concern ourselves with dietary contributions of protein, but I will deal with them It later.

        Contrary to popular belief, the body does not burn “lean tissue” for fuel when it has an excess of other fuel present with exception of extreme, long term deficits. We have examples of 300+ days of fasting with no significant lean tissue loss. The protein loss myths surrounding diets are actually a result of deliberate breakdown (through exercise) without sufficient diet to repair/rebuild. If you’re simply fasting and have excess of fat, this is not the primary or secondary source of fuels. It shows as RQ rapidly moves to .7 and doesn’t stay at .85 (amino acid ave)

        So as Kevin said elsewhere – we are talking FAT and CHO. Fuels. Two equations and two unknowns.

        All of the macronutrients have been shown to be “protein protectors” in that ingesting ANY of them skews substrate away from lean tissue – even in extremely lean participants. Everyone’s obsession with “protein,” dietary, loss, and otherwise is probably the single biggest reason we’ve ended up here. Body building is great, to a point and once past it, health is not the goal – despite how it looks.

        Normal, overweight or obese people that want to eliminate excess body fat and then resume an exercise program can expect 3-5 lbs a week loss of fat.

        Ray

      • Feral Boy says:

        You’re killing me Ray, just killing me. I really need some of that rye.

        1) “Since tests are all done fasted, we don’t concern ourselves with dietary contributions of protein”

        There is constant turnover of proteins going on in the body – breaking down and building up. It is well known that exercise shuts down most protein synthesis, and the bulk of the amino acid pool that normally supports that synthesis, especially BCAA, alanine, and glutamine, is shuttled to the liver for gluconeogenesis. Some amino acids – BCAA, at least – are also oxidized directly by skeletal muscle. This is well established.

        Here’s the first thing that popped up on PubMed, published back in 1981:
        “At rest, especially during starvation [read fasting], protein (via hepatic gluconeogenesis and/or direct oxidation) contributes significantly to the body’s total metabolic requirement… Contrary to classical belief, recent determinations of N in sweat suggest that total N excretion is in fact increased with exercise. This should not be surprising when one considers that prolonged exercise substrate shifts and hormonal changes are in many ways analogous to the situation that occurs during starvation.”

        So, even in the case of fasting, i.e., no dietary protein intake, amino acids still make a significant contribution to total energy usage. Seeing an RQ of 0.85 is not necessarily “amino acid ave”, as you wrote. It could reflect an infinite number of blends of AA, CHO, and fat. (Three variables, ignoring alcohol and ketones and whatnot, two equations.) This remains my point.

        There might be an average blend, based upon average people, during average activities, based (necessarily) upon other other ancillary tests, but this would just be an approximation for John Doe. Again, this is probably good enough, especially when your main attempt is to lower RQ toward 0.7 (where the formula would be very accurate, as the contribution from non-fat or -ketone sources necessarily approaches zero).

        2) “the body does not burn ‘lean tissue’ for fuel when it has an excess of other fuel present with exception of extreme, long term deficits”

        I won’t argue this one way or another, but the AA pool is no longer available for skeletal muscle synthesis once it’s burned, suggesting that there will be net catabolism (“burning”) unless the AA pool is supplemented via diet. Also, if the exercise is done while fasted, there is not necessarily “excess fuel present”. I’m not arguing either way, and would love to see a study on this, but I’m too lazy to search right now.

        3) “We have examples of 300+ days of fasting with no significant lean tissue loss… protein loss myths surrounding diets are actually a result of deliberate breakdown (through exercise) without sufficient diet to repair/rebuild.”

        By this logic, if one trained for, and won, a natural bodybuilding competition, he would then never have to train again – he could just show up after a year of sufficient eating and potentially take home another trophy. All his muscle would have been retained from the previous year. There will be many hard-training people glad to hear this.

        Seriously, let’s move on. No one wants to read this. Your main point stands: exercise is not all it’s purported to be by hyperbolic magazines and blogs.

        Brian W, put down your pitchfork; the monster is leaving the village peacefully.

      • admin says:

        Sorry Feral

        But you’re just wrong and you are putting together so many disjointed ideas you can’t see it. You are welcome to start a blog and have people read it. I don’t care what you think about what people want to read. So I don’t have to move on, but you are welcome to. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and you’re just acting out of ignorance. Im fully aware of protein metabolism and what I’m doing is standard procedure in nutritional and metabolic labs across the country. I just have a different focus.

        We’ve done numerous dietary studies over the last 150 years with almost complete dietary balance of protein. I’m not going to keep on, because its way to much detail and its clear you simply don’t understand biological thermodynamics. There’s an obsession with “protein” and the vast majority of it ingested does nothing more than serve as metabolically expensive fuel- deaminated and dumped into the TCA cycle, just like glucose. In fact BCAA is implicated in metabolic syndrome as it shares metabolic pathways with alcohol, trans fat and glucose.

        So, like it or not, those contributions can be accounted for in urine nitrogen and its been done, over and over again.

        I did not say they were starving and fasting/starvation are not metabolically equivalent. In fact, my metabolic rate increases for the the first few days do fasting. Again, you keep digging a deeper hole.

        I have no idea how you jumped from 300+ day fast to bodybuilding, but somehow you did. I’m not talking about people that have shifted their body so far away from a normal function that they don’t function normal. I’m talking about people that are losing weight and the MYTH that somehow skipping a meal or 100 means automatic “starvation” mode and lean loss. It’s not true.

        Here friend, read this for just one extreme example that it’s not as you believe:

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/

        How in the hell does that work in your world view? It doesn’t.

        The results I presented don’t need any of this discussion and especially when it’s clear you don’t understand this, but rather are just repeating all of the out of context material.

        You make the choice. I’m very clear about what I’m doing. It’s predicable and repeatable and it doesn’t violate any of the work over the last century and a half.

        Ray

      • Feral Boy says:

        I’ve been very polite to you, but you keep making personal attacks against me – can we discuss the ideas, instead? (I get it Ray: I’m a dummy with no comprehension of the material. So, lead me along – dispute my statements with evidence, don’t just argue from authority.)

        I don’t have any set world view, so please don’t keep attacking my (non-existent ) philosophy. I’m not obsessed with protein, I just recognize its role in energy metabolism.

        The article you cite doesn’t mention lean mass loss, so I’m not sure what your point is. The study was n=1, and the subject lost a bunch of weight by not eating. (Of course he would.) There were multiple interventions with electrolytes in order to keep him alive.

        The thing that caught my eye was the part where the authors warn about the other five people who died while in fasting studies: one at 13 days(!), two at three weeks, one at 8 weeks, and one at 210 days. Again, I’m not sure what your point is.

  8. Jason Harrison says:

    I’m interested in knowing if the statements about intervals boost metabolism are true. And I think that you will want to clarify that building muscle or aerobic capacity may require energy, it doesn’t necessarily come from fat stores.

    • admin says:

      Good point and after I finish my final weight loss trial (still no exercise for 2 years) I can’t WAIT to do my old body for life intervals and set up my leverage system to do my entire workout while measuring RQ/RMR. As this community supports my work, I’ll continue to dig deeper.

      All metabolic boost numbers are very small when compared to an Oreo cookie. I’m asking you to accept that and move along. When the activity is over your body, still genetically designed for the last several hundred thousands of years of survival, goes back to conservation mode.

      Your metabolism isn’t boosted for day, because its not an evolutionary advantage to respond to increase effort by burning more calories when one lives in a calorically scarce world. That is the significance of the post I did on Irisin (see A New Eye on BAT). Why would it be in our evolutionary advantage to create a hormone that increases energy costly tissue (BAT) as a response to exercise? The answer might be because exercise looks a lot like shivering and in the place of creating 80% waste heat shivering from limited body CHO sources, one can create 100% heat (skipping ATP step all together) using much more energy dense fat.

      I believe indeed Steven’s body is doing just that.

      Ray

  9. jesse marandino says:

    You’re giving it all away, Ray. Great post/series, but really it’s just great that you are measuring and sharing what you measured. The only thing bugging me is the kettlebell experiment… it seems like you’d need a longer measurement window. If you’re right that Steve is nervous during the initial rest period then this may not be a good baseline. Otherwise you could say that KB raised metaoblism similar to being nervous, since the trajectory *appeared* to match. But that appearance could be false, “off by an inch, off by a mile” as they say. If you had measured a couple hours before and after I think it would be more convincing. As it stands his pre-KB RQ was .82 and post was .87, is that not significant?

    Great stuff on the cold exposure though, it blows the KB out of the (cold) water.

    • admin says:

      Thanks Jesse,

      No. Those aren’t significant difference and people move around the .85 center. I could have taken a mins or so less average and seen closer numbers if matching them was a goal. Whether its 60/40 or 40/60 it’s not 80-100% fat and I see that in my lab all the time with people losing weight.

      Nervousness boosts RMR and boosts RQ. If you’re just trying to get a good baseline RMR measurements one has to be fasted and without exercise for preferably 12 hours, but at least 4. Even then I’ve seen people lay there and a perfect baseline is ruined because I asked them to adjust the chest strap measuring heart rate.

      It’s not as static as everyone thinks, but this is NOT new science revelations. This is almost 2-centuries worth of data and its not changed.

      I know this is hard to swallow, because it wrecks what everyone thinks is happening, but there’s no serious exercise physiologist that would debate it. The problem is that this sort of thing doesn’t bring in grants, doesn’t boost performance and doesn’t make one wealthy.

      Still it’s the right thing to do to point out how far we’ve drifted and I know when I launch my program I can make a living and impact my goal of 10,000 people. I’ll do it without compromising my integrity or invoking the tooth fairy.

      Exercise is critical for increased performance, but if you’re not competing, are there alternatives that have equivalent effects on health? I think it’s a fair question and some think I shouldn’t ask it, so I will and that’s the kind of rock innovation always hides under.

      Ray.

      • jesse marandino says:

        It’s true that there isn’t much money to be made debunking false claims. More money gets made making those claims 🙂 Thanks for the clarification on the significance. I know you put hundreds of hours into this and it’s also a financial investment… but it would be cool to do the same measurements on someone doing the Body By Science slow weight lifting the failure. In their book they describe the proposed mechanism of the Kreb’s cycle by which it boosts the metabolism (I won’t go into it here). Would be interesting if it was not actually boosting the metabolism because it would open the door to some questions about what _really_ happens when we build up a big oxygen debt in a short time at the cellular level.

      • admin says:

        Absolutely open to it. I’m open to all ideas, but the vast majority of food “programs” are squarely settled in the realms of ideology, not open to scientific investigation.

        My goal for the next year is to focus on nutrient sufficient/calorically poor diet. I’m afraid to say nutrient dense, because then people use an increase in numerator with excess nutrients to justify an increased denominator of calories.

        I’m certainly not a food nazi, but I feel we’ve often used the word “moderation” to rationalize little lifestyle change. I’m a proponent of the idea: if you think you can’t cut it out, you should. Addictive behaviors don’t help one make the best decision – especially with food.

        Once we clear the protein, carb, fat, and metabolism speak and we begin to talk about whole food – something that was living and not too terribly dissimilar from how you found it (no cheating looking in a box), we begin to push ourselves closer to the caloric environment that our biology was designed. Sprinkle on top the necessary consideration to the 100 trillion cells that we feed that don’t share our DNA and dispose of their waste products in our primary absorption organ, the choices for optimizing all these variables gets rather limited.

        Many are beyond the weight loss stage and are focused on gaining or increased performance. While I’m sure there’s load of snake oil in those blogs too, that’s not my focus right now.

        I want to live long and die fast. I want to live disease free. I’ve never been to a hospital except an ER or two for an acute issue and I’d like to avoid one if possible for the rest of my life.

        Ray

  10. Robert Burkhalter says:

    Ray, this is very good. Much more information this time than in any other post.

    One comment about the kettlebells. When I was testing a ROM machine (that’s the $16,000 machine that moves every muscle through a full range for 4 minutes with as much weight as you can handle), the guy who was starting to do metrics on it (some elaborate oxygen use metering) told me that their tests so far indicated you had to use the machine for 90 days before things really kicked in. I used it for only 31 days and noticed some tremendous endurance and strength increases (no measurments taken).

    I don’t know how tall of an order this might be, but I mention this to suggest that you try the kettlebell thing you did and do it every day for 90 days. See if it stays the same. Just a thought.

    And thanks for all you do. I’m still very glad you’re on the planet !

    • admin says:

      Thanks Robert.

      Fat burning (substrate utilization) simply doesn’t work that way. We have a century’s worth of data on food, diet, exercise and RQ. Your body doesn’t know if you worked out yesterday or ate 4 hours ago. Your body resets this with every meal. Even when I’m at RQ = .7 and I step on the treadmill I shift up from that point. If you don’t eat “carbohydrate” for months and stick your finger, you’re still measuring glucose. There’s a reason and I know for a fact that I can feed people nothing but “carbohydrate” and keep them at RQ = .7-.78 for months on end. I’ve done it and I’ve measured it. The best part is it doesn’t require rewriting a century and a half worth of biology with no new data.

      It’s a simple, yet elegant machine that was designed to survive, not live in a calorically abundant world and go to the gym, because it couldn’t steer clear of the pizza.

      Studies that compare athletes side by side – on FAT vs CHO preload diets all have shown both groups get a performance boost by eating CHO before activity.

      This is a bit like the idea that a “spending cut” by governments is the same as just spending less than you would have, but still spending more. All reports of “fat burning mode” are between .85 and 1.0 meaning you are burning less fat % than at rest, but presumably you are burning more calories per hour – good luck with that approach.

      I get between .6-.8 lbs/day loss repeatable in a non-ketogenic state and have done it with dozens of people, for the first 120 lbs or the last 15. It doesn’t require any fanciful ratios of macronutrients, it’s just biology 101.

      We have to move away from the macronutrient madness. As well we all want to blame the obesity pandemic on lack of activity and that is simply not the cause.

      Thanks! This next series of experiments will need MANY of you to participate and we are now designing the tools for us to do it.

      That being said, I’ve always wanted to get on a ROM just because. Remember, I never said I didn’t like exercise, I’m just trying to steer the car out of the field and back on the road. Lots of kettlebell swings in my future – just no delusions of 30 hour metabolic boosts!

      Ray

      • Ian S says:

        Hi Ray:

        There is one more thing that begs to be measured here.

        You have measured that there is no metabolic bout effect from exercise. But is there any possibility that consistent exercise over time can have a long-term chronic effect on RMR? It would be fascinating to take, for example, the population in John Berardi’s Lean Eating program and measure their RMR before they start and after 6 months of constant exercise. How well understood are the variables that effect RMR?

        Ian

      • Ian S says:

        By the way, I am in no way questioning your thesis on the need to stop exercising if you want to lose weight. In fact, I have no interest in obesity or weight loss. My question stems from my observation (as a coach) of fit young athletes who ‘appear’ to ingest massive over-nutrition, while still remaining very very lean. I also observe that when they abruptly stop playing their sport(s), with no change in dietary habits, they can quickly pack on the pounds.

        But your experiments tell me that the ‘extra’ calories they can consume from sport training, even if it is 90-120 minutes a day at fairly high intensity, are minimal. I.e., there is no ’bout effect’ from their training that allows them to consume huge amounts of food. So I was curious if perhaps all the training is chronically elevating their RMR, or if something else is going on?

      • admin says:

        Ahhhhh. Losing weight and not *gaining weight* are two separate processes – the difference is easy to understand.

        Eating to ones required output – Michael phelps for example – is a matter of keeping up with expenditure, but eating isn’t like going to the gas station in this regard. What shows on your fuel gauge doesn’t match what’s billed at the pump AND the idle of your engine would change based on the level of the fuel tank and how much fuel you took on with each fill.

        We don’t put fuel in the fuel tank and a great portion of food is simply wasted when you aren’t in conservation (fat loss mode).

        So here’s an experiment I did for 4HB – 6 weeks perfect diet and then all I could possible shove into my mouth on Saturdays from noon until 8. Big weight change and sick most Sundays but by the following Friday – back to starting weight. After 6 weeks, waited for 2 weeks to establish and next 6 weeks I ate “just a little” of what I ate previously on Saturday every single day an I was able to put 12 lbs on in 6 weeks that way eating a fraction of the binge calories.

        When you have weight to lose you are stretching a metabolic spring. It wants to snap back. Any extra calories you consume, the body is looking to tuck away. It wants to go back to normal (fat). These fit guys in gym absolutely do have metabolisms that are cranked, but so do obese people that are carrying around 50-100 lbs of fat all day, every day. Does it matter If its steel or adipose?

        The difference is a deficit is so hard because it not only takes so little calories to fuel a human relative to what’s possible to eat in a day, it wants to conserve and one DAY of indulgence in that mode is not the same as a binge when you’re scooting along healthy.

        We are designed perfectly for an environment where calories are rare. All the systems point to that. Our conundrum is that calories are not only everywhere, but eating is primary a social function, not one of survival.

        Ray

      • Brian Beaven says:

        Sorry I had to stick this above the comment I wanted to post on, but…

        (I also observe that when they abruptly stop playing their sport(s), with no change in dietary habits, they can quickly pack on the pounds.)

        I just wanted to make this an N=2 example. I’ve seen this time and time again with both martial artist and runners, especially women. I think I understand now, learning from Ray, that cutting calories and exercising is the worse think someone can do for fat loss and muscle retention. It may also really screw up your glands and hormones. I used to think that all you had to do was consume extra protein and lift heavy things to prevent the muscle loss during calorie restriction. Looks like I’ve been following a flawed logic. But it makes since to me now why people lose weight with calorie restriction and exercise for a while, then hit a plateau, and then start putting on fat.

      • leo nidas says:

        Hey Ray – love your approach. The only comment I want to make is please don’t get too hyperbolic with your writing. It sounds a little like Mercola or Kruse in places.

        I can’t speak for others, but what attracts me to your work is the clear and concise presentation of novel data.

        Cheers

      • admin says:

        Oh no…not that.

        🙂

        Ray

  11. sumit bhatia says:

    hi

    your findings are great .

    please consolidate them and simplify them for the end beneficiary

    you were thinking of starting a blog specially for fat loss . that should have minimum of jargon and the instructions should be clear and simple
    and yes going everyday to a cold swimming pool is a luxury not every one can afford

    regards

    sumit

    • admin says:

      Thank you!

      It’s in the works, just not as fast as I’d hoped. Most of the site is in place and I’m creating content based on the many people I’ve worked with in the last year and the upcoming 6 week test I’m doing.

      It’s entirely food centric with the addition of mild cold stress and leisure activity.

      The initial site will be invitation only and my goal is to keep it growing at a pace that we can have maximum, life-long lifestyle changes not quick hacks. I’ve selected 25 frequent commenters, past clients, friends etc to help launch the site. Some know who they are and some haven’t been contacted. All have succeeded in their goals. They each have the ability to invite 10 people and we grow from there. No one can invite another person in until they’ve achieved their goal.

      My business model and focus is on completing, not starting – most diet programs have the opposite goal and while that’s very lucrative, I’m interested in maximizing success. Certainly it would make a lot more money to create a line of powders and pills, but I feel confident this will work and allow me the flexibility to continue to challenge the status quo.

      You’ll read about it here first. Having an all day meeting on it today in fact. I hope interest is high.

      Ray

      P.S – if anyone is knowledgable on S2 member pro, PHP, and WordPress plugin development, please contact me.

      The new site is moving away from wishlist due to its closed nature and after it’s launched i’ll likely release these posts from login requirement, but require for commenting. I know I’ve sent people away with the login, but it’s kept the discussion productive and minimized trolls. My goal was to make progress, learn, discuss, and think, not “build a list.”

  12. Ashryn says:

    Another well reasoned piece, thankyou!
    Since you talked about food not being an emergency I have felt quite liberated, I think I have commented thus before, but I wanted to say it again. True, I have been less than obsessive about it, and not focused so much on fat loss since I hit a scale place I haven’t seen for years. But I understand a lot now about the excuses and justifications I make for the sake of fleeting pleasure, and I don’t feel helpless anymore. Now I just have to toughen up for more cold.

    An all day meeting? That’s crazy. Make ’em sit in your pool and talk!

    Mostly I want to say thanks for ‘setting me free’ with your work. It has been as much a psychological journey for me as a physical one.

    • admin says:

      Thanks and your welcome!

      I think your last sentence is the most important part – this is a social/psychological problem not an issue of activity or metabolism. It’s our relationship with food that is broken and that’s been my “other” project for the last three years.

      You’ll be reading much more about it and I’ve not only acquired nearly 200 years of metabolic/nutritional textbooks, papers and lectures, but I’ve designed a lab that adjoins my kitchen. I even removed the door so that they become one space.

      Someone said weight loss happens in the kitchen and I’d add, not in the gym. Doing it simultaneously created unavoidable metabolic conflicts and I believe adds to recidivism and failure.

      Ray

      • Brian Beaven says:

        “Someone said weight loss happens in the kitchen and I’d add, not in the gym. Doing it simultaneously created unavoidable metabolic conflicts and I believe adds to recidivism and failure.”
        That is a really powerful thought Ray. I use this statement, “you get healthy at the table, you get fit in the gym” with my weight loss clients.” But I see now that fat loss and exercise are in conflict with each other.

  13. Ashryn says:

    I do have a question though, and it may end up in the old wives tale bag, but if you get a cold, do you still keep doing the cold stress thing whilst you’re sick?

    • admin says:

      Yes. Cold is based on a virus, not anything to do with the temperature.

      The cold stress many times will boost immunity and help you shake the symptoms faster.

      Ray

  14. Catherine Garceau says:

    Great post!
    I’ve finally gotten myself close enough to the ocean to get in COLD water every morning (62-64F). I tried the pool thing (which most feel too hot for me) and the hot-cold showers.
    Those may have been working too, but I definitely haven’t felt what I’m experiencing right now (for the last 10 days of committing to ocean swims.)
    I don’t have measurement tools to show me what’s happening, but I know my body is changing.
    Reading this motivates me to push (or not push) my weight exercises even further along the resistive side for stretching and awareness purpose only. (+spontaneous barefoot beach runs to satisfy my ove for tunes in the sun – endorphins I know.)
    Anyway, thanks for this – I’m starting to get it. I think…

  15. Josh S says:

    Ray,

    Well done, this was a very informative and eye-opening article. As a data junky myself, I have always wished for access to the tools and results you have at your disposal 🙂

    I know you have a lot of commenters and a lot on your plate already, but I have a few curiousities that could pique your interest as well…
    1 – Have you performed any extended-length cold water exposures (2-8+ hours… longer)? Is there any notable point that the body “switches” to a more preferential fat burn as glycogen is depleted or is it a constant RQ dependant on water temp?
    2 – And/Or have you tested cold exposure in a glycogen depleted state, i.e. after a marathon run or century bike ride?
    3 – Regarding a keto vs. non-keto diet, have you tested similar adaptation trends to cold exposure as is seen with exercise, and does a keto state promote a similar up-regulation of fat burning RQ as adaptation increases? (exercise example: http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance ) I think it would be very interesting to compare a keto vs. “potato diet” or similar over an extended time to see if/when their calorimeter readings show statistical differences.

    Thanks again for all you are contributing to the n=1 movement!
    Josh

    • admin says:

      Thanks Josh

      Yes, don’t misread what I am saying here about athletic performance – that is not what I am addressing and there are many regimes that one can successfully operate. I wanted to address very specifically that “metabolic boost” is not what we believe it is, despite those exercises being useful for increased performance.

      As well, obesity simply is not a “output” issue, that is, it’s not the lack of activity that causes it. The problem is an input issue (eating) and it can be most quickly addressed through dietary intervention. There are many schemes that can successfully increase caloric deficit, but in the end, that is what causes all weight loss. Finally, the goal of training (as is shown on this page) is to increase your body’s utilization of fat via volume effort. The body “learns” that it must utilize. I can come back to this, but know that it doesn’t apply to someone that is 20,30 or 100 lbs overweight. The problem gets compounded by the idea one is trying to eat to lose AND eat to maintain/grow at the same time – this causes issues.

      As for 1, no, I have not gone past it, but the body naturally makes the translation from inefficient shivering (glycogen) to beta oxidation of FFA/UCP-1a upregulation (no ATP involved). What I believe is possible is to shift substrate utilization via cold stress and tap into it to do exercise – that will follow what I am doing now. The reason I believe this is Wim does it now. He’s never trained for a marathon and yet he can run one…let’s go and he does it. -40 or in the desert a 115 with no water. Wim has the ability to tap into that fat utilization at will. We also both can generate heat at our extremities through will. What I have found by using the calorimeter at the same time is I shift RQ towards fat when I mentally “warm” my hands and feet. I am a skeptic, so I am still trying to figure out some other explanation for what causes it to work – ie. am I measuring something eles.

      I have a lot of data on starch and plant based diets and not much on keto. I think all diets end in the same place if you think about it: RQ =.7 that’s the only time by definition we make progress. I KNOW that even when eating nothing but high-gycemic starch, you still end up at .7 as I have seen this in dozens of people. That of course make sense, because you can lose fat without burning, right? Where I differ in opinion with the keto crowd is that I don’t think one has to eat fat to burn fat. I can explain weight loss in or out of ketosis and it works the same. I see none of the issues with IR and when people are T2DM it typically vanishes in 14-30 days. This isn’t new as Roux-En-Y bypass does the exact same thing and 75% of them are “cured.”

      Good stuff and I plant to get Ben Greenfield in here at some point and a few others. I will make a prediction that a lot of the keto crowd is “right” for the wrong reason. We’ll see if it plays out.

      So, everyone be cautious when trying to generalize what I am saying here to elite athletes or intense training – you will still lose body fat faster without the exercise and more severe restriction, but I am NOT trying to make any claims about what is happening during an ultra marthon. WHat I am suggesting is that in BOTH cases we should not apply those mechanism to the other case. What works for an ultra marathoner isn’t what a couch potato needs and visa versa..

      THanks for posting!

      Ray

      • Josh S says:

        Ray, thanks for the reply. I have some follow-up comments/questions on your note. If you could please elaborate as applicable when you have some time, I would greatly appreciate it:
        “What I believe is possible is to shift substrate utilization via cold stress and tap into it to do exercise – that will follow what I am doing now.”
        Do you mean this in the sense of using cold as a replacement or addition to strength training? If so, this is actually something I have been milling around for a couple of months since beginning my own CT. I have essentially cut out my strength training (squats/deads/bench) and switched to HIIT running/bike sprints a couple times a week, coupled with some bodyweight workouts: pull/chin/push ups etc. Very interesting

        “The reason I believe this is Wim does it now. He’s never trained for a marathon and yet he can run one…let’s go and he does it. -40 or in the desert a 115 with no water. Wim has the ability to tap into that fat utilization at will. We also both can generate heat at our extremities through will.”
        Who is Wim? Apologies if I missed the reference. I’ve noticed since my CT adaption that I am slowly gaining control of the same bodily function that kicks on when I jump in the cold water (feels like my insides are performing subtile shivvering, for lack of a better explanation). I have a skin thermometer and have been considering experimenting with trying to raise limb/area temps through will… your note above indicating you have this ability is my inspiration to try it! I will report back if you are interested.
        Further, regarding fat adaption: I have been trying to hone my own fat burning ability lately as well. For example, I hadn’t ridden a bike for 10 years up until ~2 months ago. The first time I jumped on I went ~20 miles without exhaustion or fatigue. Since then I have done 5-10 long rides, 25-70 miles with little to no fatigue. I have tried to pay attention to my body while doing this, and believe I am actually able to tell through my breathing and muscle feeling when I am crossing the threshold into preferential/higher carb burning vs fat burning.

        “What I have found by using the calorimeter at the same time is I shift RQ towards fat when I mentally “warm” my hands and feet. I am a skeptic, so I am still trying to figure out some other explanation for what causes it to work – ie. am I measuring something eles.”
        Hmm, I am new to manipulating my body like this, but if I had to hypothesize, I would guess that you are shifting the RQ towards fat since you are likely activating the same mechanisms (mentally/manually) as you body does (automatically) when exposed to cold. Similar to how an althete can “run” a race mentally and their brain/muscular activity matches when they are physically running it.

        I agree with you that RQ=.7 is the end goal for all, dietary choices aside. I am a proponent of progress and realize that everyone chooses their own method of getting there based on whatever works best for each individual. If you would be interested in additional Keto data, I am a 29 male, 5’8″/155-160/<10% BF; I eat 1 evening meal/day and practice a strict intermittent fast outside that. I have been fat adapted (primal) for a couple years and strict keto since 3/1/13 with 1 day/week carb feeding. As I mentioned in my initial posting, I am a data junky so I'd be willing to track any necessary metrics that I can.

      • admin says:

        Let’s see, wills start with your last comment first. You don’t need to be ketogenic to be at RQ = .7. Like my comments to Brian on Diabetes, this is akin to hammering the symptom instead of treating the disease. I have numerous people that are RQ = .7 (actually measured, not guessing) and the eat nothing but “carbs” whole-food starches (oh, I hate that word). Fat loss is by definition an RQ = .7 activity.

        Yes, on adapting, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to substitute cold stress for some of the volume training and get a benefit. Of course, VO2Max is the other side of the volume coin, but this is exatly what I want to do when I reach my idea body mass (same as you only 5’9″). I may not remain at 10%, because I have some thoughts about too low too, but that’s the goal.

        Who is Wim? Wim Hof, friend, colleague and cold badass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_rIYtebwLM We’ve been working together for 2 years now and he’s making incredible breakthroughs with the autonomic nervous system and immunity. As for my hesitation, It’s possible that you are correct. I know that last year when the tech (also a successful weight loss story) was setting up the instrument, I gave him temporary heart failure that it wasn’t working when decided to start doing the meditative things I do to warm in cold. I was thinking, hmmmmm wonder what happens? sure enough I could shift RQ on cue from 1.0 to .7, but I’m a skeptic and I want to make sure there isn’t anything in breathing or CO2 dump, etc… I need a thermal imager and was hoping to have one by now. That’s perhaps part of an upcoming crowd sourcing effort I’ve discussed. It’s identical to what you are doing with a run and this is worth confirming. I have several elite athletes that I’ve discussed confirming when this next phase is complete…but I don’t WANT to run a marathon. Oh well, for data I might do it.

        I think you continue on the path. THis is an inner exploration and no one completely has the answer. Contrast showers should improve peripheral circulation and that helps in both phases with O2 delivery and lactate build up. Obviously shifting over to Fat does better, but I will tell you that there are MANY studies that show both sides of the role of glycogen.

        Finally, cold stress doesn’t replace “strength training” but most people falsely believe that “strength training” is necessary to not “loose lean tissue” on a diet. I think that is not only false, but the opposite is true. You lose MORE tissue by training and not eating properly, than radically restricting diet and eliminating exercise for a period. That being said, people then spin off into the “p-word” black hole and that’s an entirely different story.

        Good stuff!

        Ray

  16. nicolas duran says:

    Thank You for sharing your findings, I’m a big fan of your work Ray. I was wondering have you tested the foods and supplements that claims to boost your metabolism and help you burn fat such as green tea, green coffee, l-carnitine or CLA?

    Nicolás.

    • admin says:

      Nicolás

      Thanks! Yes, I’ve done a little here, but nothing exhaustive. Certainly any stimulant has an impact on metabolism. As I discuss in the article, even if one is standing or nervous you see a rise. It doesn’t take much to make it jump.

      For example, one of my clients was on day ~ 38 of weight loss and down 38 lbs. his RMR was 3100 kcal/day at that point. When we were done with the first 15 minute assessment, I had him stand and gently swing his hands back and forth and we repeated the test. It was now 3697 kcal/day. In both cases RQ = .78 (26.3%CHO/73.7%FAT).

      Here’s my guess, take any one of these products and try to measure an effect while someone is fidgeting and you’d bury the boost in the movement. Fidgeting is a good strategy as are “walking desks” or simply using the inactivity reminder on bands, such as Jawbone UP, to get up and move around. You can use a headset and pace during any phone conversation – anyone that’s used a metabolic cart would confirm that all of these activities would interfere with the test giving a artificial high reading.

      But here’s the problem and why I started the mild cold stress in the first place. Even a marathon at ~ 2600 kcal is easily nullified by a meal or two. It’s not practical to run a marathon every day, but its pretty easy to consume a marathon’s worth of fuel.

      Even if one of these products does work, it’s not going to double or triple metabolism and so one must still come back to the intake side of the equation – if of course the goal is to lose body fat.

      So being critical, why do I get so excited by mild cold stress? Why isn’t this in the same category? Well, when I started I didn’t know for sure, but there turns out to be two distinct differences. The first has to do with what I repeat here often – mild cold stress for longer periods trump ice baths, but as we see short term large exposures may have lingering effects. Second is that the body responds, or adapts to cold stress by signaling the mitochondria to skip ATP production, burn fat, and make heat. It’s a win-win.

      I will do some testing in time of “energy drinks” etc…I suspect I’ll see a stimulating effect. Lets not lose the message – it will be short lived and not very many calories when compared to what you might eat on any given day.

      Ray

  17. Slow Sure says:

    I’m intrigued by this and it will doubtless disturb me for a few days while I think my way through it. It will then perturb me more because there is little comparable data from others to compare it with as yours is a distinctive data set.

    I will be particularly interested to see if these results are approximately the same in women (particularly at different stages such as peri or post menopausal).

    • admin says:

      Lol. Don’t let it disturb you.

      I can say that men/women, fat/thin, fit/unfit, and young/old who’ve been here always had a metabolism. It’s never 0. Even if its depressed – how much can that be? If we start with an average person of 1500-2200 kcal/day then add in some activity – 300-800 kcal/day, how depressed is it? 200, 500, 1000 kcal?

      Pick any number and then show me that number in tablespoons of olive oil. You’ll see that we can add a 120-300 kcal oil in any meal and its imperceptible. Despite all the hormonal and metabolic adds on radio, metabolisms aren’t broken in this way and give any one of those people water only and I assure you they will lose body fat.

      Take a look on either Part 1 or Part 2 comments and you’ll find the BBC documentary someone posted and its all there (I’ll look and add it here later).

      We are inundated with calorie and have biology designed for a calorically scarce world. We are a society of one meal that takes breaks to work and sleep. Everything is food. It never stops.

      Our metabolisms aren’t broken. Inactivity is a catch-all for obfuscating out broken relationship with food. 50 lbs gained over 20 years is an extra 168 kcal/WEEK! ~ 24 kcals/day. It’s a food problem.

      Embrace and succeed.

      Ray

      • Slow Sure says:

        I feel that I might agree with you for the most part albeit we might differ on some details.

        The ’embrace and succeed’ – I’m within a normal weight range for my height (not that BMI is meaningful) but can readily accept that I’m over-fat. Interestingly, for me, I think this because I’m 5ins broader in some parts than I previously was at this weight.

        I think the notion of ‘broken metabolisms’ is intriguing, not because it’s true but because it’s become an unhelpful narrative device*. The metaphor of damage of malfunction has been the only way for individuals/certain sections of the nutrition/fitness industries to explain the disconnect between what is accepted as canonical knowledge, and people’s personal experience of attempting to implement it but not experiencing the results that they were led to expect. It’s easier to locate the blame with the individual than question the received wisdom.

        (*This is a horrible shorthand for Pratchett’s ‘lies to children’: The Science of Discworld is: “A lie-to-children is a statement that is false, but which nevertheless leads the child’s mind towards a more accurate explanation, one that the child will only be able to appreciate if it has been primed with the lie”. The authors acknowledge that some people might dispute the applicability of the term lie, while defending it on the grounds that “it is for the best possible reasons, but it is still a lie”. (Children refers to people learning a topic, not age.))

      • wayne fearn says:

        You disagree with actual real time and significant data that ‘we’ have the honour of seeing outside of a blinkered multi billion dollar industry designed to keep us chomping down chemicals?

  18. Quinton Fraser says:

    This morning I did my kettlebell swings shirtless in 12C outside temperature. It makes me laugh to think that the cold stress probably burnt more kilojoules than the exercise.

    • admin says:

      Now THIS man has a plan!

      Really, this is a good plan and my program involves intervals of swim and and kettlebells. When I first tried it, I hadn’t wrapped my mind completely around the impacts of RQ, and so that is why I want to measure after I get closer to my ideal weight. I’ve put on almost 12 lbs in the last 3-4 weeks in preparation for my next food calorimetry experiment – funny passing one of the people I was coaching as he progresses down from 235->155/160. We met briefly at 191. He’s now in the 180s and Im at a whopping 192 – biggest I’ve been in 4 years.

      Once I hit 160-165, I will begin exercising again and until then, let us know how this works out.

      really, I’ve grown to love kettelbell swings. It’s just a fast way to hit everything.

      anyone else have cold stress interval training you’ve experimented with?

      Ray

      • Quinton Fraser says:

        Great article by the way, it really answers a lot of questions that have been building since I found this blog a few short weeks ago (like many I was led here after reading “4 hour body” a month ago). While I didn’t have a full grasp on the science (and still don’t), it made enough sense to start trying things straight away.

        Tim Ferris is pretty extreme in his approach to cold and I really prefer your moderate touch.

        Slow Carb Diet is works well with your ideas since TF doesn’t place a high emphasis on exercise when trying to lose fat. I’d really like to try diet without cold stress and then with it to see the difference but I want to lose weight more than collect data!

        Fortunately it’s Autumn in Perth (Australia) so there’s a bunch of easy, manageable ways to add cold to everyday life.

    • admin says:

      Now THIS man has a plan!

      Really, this is a good plan and my program involves intervals of swim and and kettlebells. When I first tried it, I hadn’t wrapped my mind completely around the impacts of RQ, and so that is why I want to measure after I get closer to my ideal weight. I’ve put on almost 12 lbs in the last 3-4 weeks in preparation for my next food calorimetry experiment – funny passing one of the people I was coaching as he progresses down from 235->155/160. We met briefly at 191. He’s now in the 180s and Im at a whopping 192 – biggest I’ve been in 4 years.

      Once I hit 160-165, I will begin exercising again and until then, let us know how this works out.

      really, I’ve grown to love kettelbell swings. It’s just a fast way to hit everything.

      Ray

  19. Simon Gustafson says:

    Ray,

    Appreciate the new article. Having been one of the original participants in the potato hack I learned some very interesting things during the initial two weeks. My relationship with food was severely limiting my attempts with weight loss and all of the excercising I was doing just left me feeling sore and depleted. Food has always been a soothing thing and was used to change my emotional state rather than just as a source of fuel. It’s definatley and addiction for many people and I for one fall into that category.

    I am now able to go days on end eating the same foods over and over again and am satisfied. I have mainted my weight loss now for just short of a year (26 pounds). When people see how I eat they think it’s a bit quirky, I still eat lots of potatoes. Even my wife gives me a hard time. I would love to be part of your new website. Your writings on this blog has had more of and impact on my health than any other research, or book, that I have studied. You are definatley right we have and eating problem not and activity problem.

    Keep being the voice of reason in a vast sea of misinformation. Thanks again for all that you do.

    Simon

    • admin says:

      Thanks Simon!

      That’s fantastic. You were already on my short list of the first 25, but just consider it done. I’d really appreciate your help in launching this to a wider group.

      Now if I can get all the material finished and stop getting sidetracked with curiosity.

      Ray.

  20. admin says:

    Had some emails requests to add the running test, so here it is:

    null

    • Shane says:

      Ray,

      Have you done any testing where you keep heart rate at or below 75% of maximum, this is the reported fat burning zone and one which gets talked about in heart rate training circles especially long slow runs or bike rides. Also when up in the + RQ =0.9 range and burning predominantly CHO is that the glycogen (sp) been burnt first? And once that’s burnt the body must replace by converting some form of fuel.

      Been using KBs for the last year, the swing, snatch and Turkish get ups are great exercises, have a couple of protocols I use for conditioning and they work for me, both aerobic and strength conditioning and more importantly hip flexibility.

      Cheers Shane

      • admin says:

        Shane

        The fat burning zone means this: you’re burning more fat than than you would have been if you were burning 100% CHO. There is a sweet spot where the calories X percent FAT, delivers a slight increase/per hour IF you maintain it.

        The truth is that even running on a treadmill with a mask and watching it full time, I rarely stay there. Good luck. And if you do, the next meal can surely wipe all the progress out. You must also eat enough to support the repair and at the same time not over eat.

        If you’re not competing or if you simply want to drop fast, then why bother? Staying at RQ = .76 nearly 20 hours/day delivers a better result. Or do the arithmetic. Of you’re losing less than .6-.8 lbs/day you could improve your game by skipping.

        As for glycogen depletion, say there’s 1500-2000 Cals of glycogen (upper limit). That’s basically 15-20 miles worth (at 100% CHO). At 50% (RQ = .85) it gets you to 30-40 miles. And at 25/75 (RQ ~ .78) you get 60-80 miles.

        That’s some good efficiency and obviously one can work on ketone bodies.

        I’m not of in elite endurance athlete. I’m talking about the obesity pandemic. I’m interested in that massive group of people that are being told they are overweight because of lack of activity. Not belittling the role of exercise, but I’ve not heard many people proclaiming these facts and so I thought I’d be the disrupter.

        You have a choice.

        Ray

  21. wayne fearn says:

    I just told someone to quit doing 200 burpee jumps in one hit after he complained his knees were hurting. I offered him this web address so let’s see if he appears?

    I love exercising so I walk my dogs and play with the kids if I’m really feeling energetic I’ll do 5 pull ups.

    Can’t understand why people REALLY damage themselves in the name of fat loss? After a number of months floating around here I just change the food on my fork and pop a few new holes in my belt. In fact I have picked up a nearly new wardrobe of clothes from people who have bought smaller clothes ready for their weight loss after joining the gym and can’t drop the weight.

    I just did what Ray said and BOOM free clothes. I did start to TRY and tell people my secret but it became too much for me to literally fight and argue.

    Ray told me to stop it and enjoy my success. People do have negative comments on my food choices as they tuck into a 16oz rump steak with all the trimmings and a dessert even though I may sit there wearing their new clothes that they can’t wear.

    People are mostly ignorant due to the wrong influences in life just hope some swallow their pride (calorie free) and login here.

    Ray keep it coming more frequently in future:-)

  22. An M says:

    Hi Ray,

    Thanks for sharing these experiments. I’m finding these recent posts interesting. Your own tests on KB’s and exercise have helped me correct some assumptions I’ve had as a direct result of the unquestioned ideas bouncing around in the echo chamber we called the internet… I’m looking forward to reading more and I’ll pipe in with everyone else who is looking for a plan! 🙂

    A thing I want to question: “I’d argue they are practically worthless and craving is a term of addiction, not survival and health”.

    Have you done experiments to prove this? The reason I am wary of it is after reading Gary Taube’s book, “Good Calories Bad Calories”. He strongly questions the idea of cravings being caused by ‘addiction’, or lack of self discipline (as implied when we’re instructed to just stop eating). Rather, Taubes put forth data that argues that some cravings may be happening due to a hormonal response in our system diverting energy to our fat cells. One lab rat experiment he cited showed how an experiment was done where a group of rat’s had their ability to produce insulin was removed. These rats gained fat and ate WAY more, and they showed signs of suffering from malnutrition at the same time. In other words, these rat didn’t get fat because they ate more, it seems they ate more because they were getting fat. Not addiction, or lacking of will power.
    To me, this ties in with the idea that our own ability to ‘use’ insulin is affected by insulin resistance – such as what happens if we eat a lot of sugar over prolonged periods, which would also explain why so many overweight people are also happen to be insulin resistant. But I can’t know either way, because I can’t run experiments to answer that question.

    The reason I think it’s important is because the answer is fundamental in the way we ought to go about looking so solve our eating issues. If it’s down to us being addicted and having cravings are just a question of willpower, it implies that our hunger is an issue of psychology. This would tend to put us in the direction that I’m sure many of us are familiar with. The one of ignoring hunger even though it can actually be overwhelming. I know when I have tried to do that I haven’t lasted long, and when I caved I would over-eat….
    On the other fork in the road, if we were to say that those cravings may in fact be a physiological response to what we’re eating. That is, the hunger is something that is happening to us, then it takes us away from that unhappy road of ‘mind over matter’, of trying to fight those feelings of hunger – failing, and berating ourselves because we aren’t good enough to stop eating more food – even when there is so much fat in our thunder thighs and stomachs waiting to be metabolised…

    Again, I can’t know the answer because I am a layman and in no position to test anything, but because of the amount of false stuff that’s floating around out there, I’m taking a precautionary exception on you with this particular idea until someone can show me actual human experiments that can prove this is simply down to addiction…

    I hope I don’t sound crabby with this post, my reasons for replying comes from a place of wanting to understand things more clearly so I can make informed decisions for my own health.

    Thanks again,
    Andrew

    • Paul N says:

      I’ll be interested to hear Ray’s take on this, but meanwhile, here’s mine.

      I think there are two different pathways that lead to cravings – addictive, and nutrient deficiency.

      Addictive cravings are often not just for food, but for specific foods. The best example for me is wheat/gluten, which is know to be addictive. When I went off wheat (after reading Wheat Belly) I used dark chocolate as my substitute food,whenever I had a wheat craving. It supplied calories and pleasant taste, etc, but not gluten. I could eat all the chocolate IO wanted but I still craved bread for days. I gave into it and had some toast, and the cravings dissappeared for half a day. that was the clincher for me, a definite addictive craving.

      Nutrient deficient cravings are where your body needs nutrient X. and you crave foods that have it. Pregnant women are probably the best example of this. A more common example that we can all experience is eating “empty calorie” junk foods like potato chips. They hit our taste sensors for fat, salt, sour (vinegar) umami(free glutamate) so our body is expecting nutrient rich food, but what it gets is no nutrients, and you eat more, looking for nutrients that aren’t there, but getting *lots* of calories.

      Eating kale or beef liver is the reverse, lots of nutrients but not many calories. Even a good steak is the same – if you eat it slowly, you actually lose the desire to eat it after about ten mouthfuls – your nutrient needs have been satisfied.

      The Seth Roberts Shangri-la diet takes this a step further. When you eat calories without taste (drinking flax oil with your nose pinched) your body senses nutrients, but you do not have taste sensations making you crave more calories. It is amazingly effective at killing your appetite.

      For a really interesting explanation of hunger and satiety, watch J. Stantons talk from AHS 2012. Essentially, if your body is getting the nutrients it needs, you will be less hungry. But if you are eating nutrient poor foods – almost all processed foods – then you need to eat more of them to get them same amount of nutrients, and some (like vit K2) you are unlikely to get at all.

      You want to get the most nutrients from your normal daily calories, not your normal daily nutrients from the most calories.

      • Shane says:

        I had beef liver for lunch, 1/2 dozen small pieces and I was satisfied, not full, but not wanting to continue to eat. It was about 1/3 of what I would normally eat if it was steak.

        Also had carrot, kale and beet root juice for breakfast following 1 hour in the pool.

    • Ashryn says:

      I have to put my bit in here too.. Because all the things you said, I said. And there will be no convincing you till you prove it to yourself. Do the potato thing because it is the simplest boringest most enlightening thing you will ever do. It’s only two weeks,( an oddessy not a lifestyle change) it won’t hurt you, though the first few days are difficult. You will learn much about your relationship with your food. Read all the blog posts and all the comments again whilst you’re doing it to see what things suddenly make sense when food is a non issue.

      Sorry to bring up the potato experiment again Ray, I know it isn’t what you want to be remembered for, but its such a good illustration of your point about how we think about food.

      • Jason Harrison says:

        Regarding cravings. Don’t forget about the microbiology of your gut. What they eat and poop, we eat. A meal of Lentils and Beans results in less hunger and less eating the next meal and day. Thus the “slow carb diet” may not be working strictly through slow carbs, or low carbs, or low sweets, but also through shifting the microbiology of your gut, also through shifting your choices, also through shifting your mindfulness of your eating.

        Beans and the Second Meal Effect
        Gut Feelings, Probiotics, and Mental Health

      • admin says:

        Completely agree.

        Ray.

  23. Alex Stoilov says:

    Ray, please explain more about kettlebells. Can we put muscles on with them. How often should we train. I reached my ideal weight, but I look very skiny. I want to gain some muscle. But after a very intense excersize I cannot stop eat fo 2-3 days and I put on fat instead muscle.

  24. Mark Jeffries says:

    Ray,

    This is phenomenal, fascinating, thought-provoking stuff, as always. I’ve read everything on your site, but never comment because I can’t think of anything intelligent or useful to add.

    I did recently start trying something during 10-20-10 contrast showers (I’ve been doing these almost every day, often 2x/day, for about 1.5 years) that might be useful to others. While standing under the cold water for the last 2-4 minutes straight at the end of the shower [for those not familiar, the cycle = 10 seconds warm water, 20 seconds cool/cold water, alternating 10 times, then all cool/cold water at the end for at least two minutes], I do a very low-key calisthenic-type movement where I alternately raise my knees to waist height and touch them with the opposite hand. This is a basic daily mobility “stretch” that I do anyway, and doing it (carefully! slowly! gently!) under the cold water provides – I think – two potential benefits:

    1. Warms up my body enough to help the cold water feel more comfortable (I still have varying levels of comfort with the cold water… sometimes I love it, other times it is slightly unpleasant – although I always feel good afterwards)

    2. Provides a low level of activity that (perhaps?) forces more fat burning as the modest heat generated from movement is shed immediately by the cold water (akin to swimming, possibly?)

    I should re-emphasize: this is a super low-key/simple movement, and my shower floor has good traction. No burpees in the shower, people!!!

    • admin says:

      All good points.

      Lets discuss why I want people to do contrast showers as it might not be obvious.

      The first reason is increased serotonin hit – analogous to bright like as used to treat SAD. This is the good mood high and anyone that does this for a week or two and suddenly stops feels the effect. One gets to the point that if you exit the shower hot, you feel terrible.

      The second is not so obvious, but it has a two fold effect. Vasoconstrict/vasodilate – repeat. This increases circulation at the extremities. Wim has done some work on this with patients that have poor circulation. Push the blood out. Push the blood in. This is not just to the extremities, but also to the skin – circulation is key and this is also some benefit of exercise, but its more effective (my belief) than just pumping blood out (cooling). As well, this mutes your cold shock fight or flight response so that instead of going into shiver mode, you pass more quickly to mitochondrial Non-shivering thermogenesis.

      The exercises you are doing make it fun and can’t hurt (unless you fall) so if that’s the way to pass the time, fine.

      Good input!

      Ray

    • wayne fearn says:

      I do hulk type body squeezes to comat this shiver response and I feel so much more manly to boot; except if my wife is around then I just grit my teeth and bare it;-)

  25. chris musgrove says:

    Seems like a lot of the pieces to the puzzle are coming together. As I am understanding – you induce mild thermogenesis thru cold water immersion, best not to eat after for 4 to 6 hours, do intermittent fasting at least 18 hours, eat some form of resistant starch to provide satiety and caloric restriction with very little to no fat, exercise should be mild to none until weight loss goals are met.

    This will produce half to a pound a day weight loss. I’m right now 210# and have been 160 twice in my adult life. [that would be goal]. I have reasonable will power if not hungry. I do have access to a pool. I would be interested in participating in the group thing you are planning.

    I join the others in thanking you for what you do. I hope you can make a living from it as well as impact the tens of thousands who are willing to do something about the obesity epedimic.

  26. Ashryn says:

    24 hour fasts are easy enough for me to do these days, I do 2 per week, sometimes 3. I keep waiting for the tired and fuzzy crash I always used to get when on low cal diets.. It doesn’t ever come, (I guess that was a sugar or wheat thing) sure, I get hungry, but if I ignore it the hungry goes away. so the question is if I can push it out to 36 or 48 hours, should I?

    Another question; since I started eating lots of salads, dark green leafies, I find that that’s what I crave. What’s going on here? (No one believes me when I tell them I could murder for a salad 😉

    • chris musgrove says:

      Everyone is different – for me I like 6 p.m. to Noon the next day. Read somewhere that the benefits decline rapidly after 24 hours.

      No opinion on the salad – can’t hurt just don’t pull the trigger!!

  27. Jesse Valianes says:

    Really great stuff Ray, thanks for doing all of this.

    Regarding RQ, from what I’ve read, and correct me if I’m wrong, but you’ve spoken about it as if the only types of fuel burned are a combination of carbohydrates and fat. How does muscle factor into the equation as an energy source?

    I’ve seen/heard of many examples of people losing strength when trying to cut weight. I’ve heard many opinions that state that cardio is a no-no when doing so because it makes it more difficult to maintain muscle mass. From what I’ve read RQ tells us whether carbs or fat are being burned, so how does loss of lean muscle factor into this?

    • Feral Boy says:

      Jesse, I alluded to this in another comment. According to
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient
      the RQ for protein is 0.8-0.9.

      I don’t think there is an RQ difference between dietary protein usage and endogenous protein usage (from tissue destruction).

      If one were strictly cannibalizing muscle tissue for energy, RQ would read similar to someone burning 50% fat, 50% CHO.

      • admin says:

        Please see my reply. You are leading people off astray and you obviously don’t understand the thermodynamics involved.

        I don’t mind questions or even being wrong, but this is well beyond the scope of Wikipedia and its not a matter of debate with people trained in the field.

        Ray.

  28. Shane says:

    Hi Ray,

    I did a slow ride on the push bike this morning in tee shirt and shorts running the dog so not a fast ride. The outside temp was 8 deg Celsius so wind chill would have seen it lower. Felt cold the whole ride especially the hands but not shivering cold. Is this a good mild cold protocol?

    Cheers

  29. neal johnson says:

    Hi Ray

    Good post as usual. I have tried to wrap my mind around the fact that exercise though good for sculpting and performance can slow fat loss. I know we mentioned hormones before as having some involvement but you were not investigating at moment.
    So I decided to try this 3 weeks ago. No work out for 2 weeks…I typically eat only when hungry and that’s usually a couple times a day with consists of veges and legumes, rice etc. I now live in mountains where is cooler and my house is usually about 60-65 degrees at night. Anyway, that average of .6-.8lbs/day is very real! Biggest fat loss I have had in a short space of time. And I was already at 12% BF at last DEXA reading. Will be going in for another reading in a month to evaluate further. I measure every 6 months.

    Yes it goes counter to the exercise/diet regimen often Rx, but makes perfect sense. Like I said, I’m a skeptic by nature and I guess it’s because of my scientific training, but I had to spend time with my own experimentation to figure it out. Your info has been the catalyst.

    Looking forward to supporting anyway I can

    Neal

    • Brian Beaven says:

      Nice going Neal. How much time are you exposing yourself to mild cold stress per day?

      • neal johnson says:

        Hi Brian

        The recommendation was the 10/20 x 10. Morning and night. I must admit I did it mostly at night only. In my meals I don’t add extra oils or stuff like that. Love veges and beans, rice, potatoes etc. I don’t count calories or anythin either. Waste of time( at least for me). I choose not to eat animal products either but that just me. Not a specific recommendation.

      • Brian Beaven says:

        Thanks Neal. So you do the contrast shower and your house stays between 60-65 degrees. What type and/or how much clothing do you wear? How about covers at night? Do you feel cold most of the time or comfortable?

      • Brad W says:

        Is that a shower consisting of 10 seconds warm / 20 seconds full cold cycles, repeated ten times?

        ie, is the “warm phase ” full comfort, and is the cold cold-water only?

        Thank you.

      • neal johnson says:

        I am usually without a shirt or socks. Light scrub pants and maybe a light sheet no covers. Once I fall asleep I’m good to go! It’s chilly for sure but I get used to it pretty fast. Initially as I tried this it was uncomfortable. But experimented with temp and layers until I adjusted:)

      • Brian Beaven says:

        Thanks Neal. Its getting hot here in Oklahoma so its getting harder to stay cold. I have my house set to 72 degrees and I wear short with no shirt. But this is hard for my female clients to do. Especially those with children and other family members that told want to be cold all the time.

    • admin says:

      Thanks Neal and thanks for the donations along the way!

      It’s really incredible how easy this is once you’ve past the addictive habits and acquired appetite for certain foods and press on into true hunger. Food just tastes so good. In the program I’m writing for a “self-experiment” based cooking tutorial, I do an whole section on tastes. Flavor is so completely subjective, arbitrary, and cultural. Anyone can learn to love a wide-variety of Flavors and prefer them over previous favorites.

      The relationship is key and that’s what I’m focused on, with a twist.

      Keep us posted!

      Ray.

  30. A few months ago Ray and I finally met in a little Mexican grill over guacamole and margaritas. He openly declared my two years of diet experimentation: paleo, low carb, intermittent fasting… a giant failure. “You’re still fat!”

    Over chips and drinks he exclaimed that in roughly 100 days (he had the math down to a specific date) I would be at my [new] goal weight which he said was solidly 20lbs lower than I thought. I’d just have to follow a few simple rules. Shockingly, one of those rules was NO EXERCISE! I’ll admit, I listened mostly in disbelief as he declared I’d lose .6 to .8 pounds a day until I hit my goal.

    I averaged .9 pounds per day the first 30 days!

    First, he reintroduced this crazy idea he had about potatoes. Over a year earlier he’d try to get me to do this, but I was dedicated to low carb and had resisted. “Eat any kind of potatoes you want, no butter and no sour cream. Just steam, boil, or bake them.”

    I should emphasize here, the potatoes are [not] a healthful diet plan! It’s a very effective training protocol, like boot camp for the food addicted and nutritionalism brainwashed.

    Ray kept chastising me when I talked about foods in categories like proteins, carbs, and fats. When you realize that 200 grams of carbs: starch, sugar, fiber, can be dramatically different, ranging from fat loss inducing (yes, carbs!) and absolutely impossible to do you [any] harm to being profoundly poisonous to liver damaging, cancer promoting, and heart disease causing… when you finally realize just how obscenely meaningless “proteins, carbs, and fats” really is, you’ll understand why Ray introduced the “potato diet” – he picked something that worked to demonstrate the absurdity of how myopically we view food. It’s hard to argue with with these results.

    Since my last lab revealed my previously low carb controlled diabetes was raging back with an A1C pushing 8, triglycerides in the high 600s, and a total cholesterol over 200… my tipping 235 pound fat, sick nightmare of a body wasn’t anything I was overly concerned about protecting from Ray’s crazy experiment. What the hell? I’d eat potatoes for 14 days.

    35 days later, a shockingly smaller person already, my labs reveal the starchy truth. My A1C is 5.6. My cholesterol is under 160, already! My triglycerides are down to the low 100s. And, today I’m a solid 50 pounds smaller than I was at SXSW in March.

    And, I’m still losing weight! There is no plateau, not for consistent calorie restriction and fat avoidance weight loss. I havent started exercising yet because I’m still about 35 pounds from my goal weight. Ray was right by the way, I’m smaller than I was when I got married 22 years ago. But, I’m not stopping until I’m below 15% body fat. It’s insane. By the middle of Summer I’ll be more lean than I’ve ever been my entire life. I only wish I’d listened to Ray about that crazy potato thing a year ago. And, what he’s taught me since… I’ll simply never be fat again!

    • chris musgrove says:

      Jason – congrats on your accomplishment – can you share a little about what you actually eat on a daily basis. Do you measure quantity? Any variety?

      I find boiled little red potatoes or baked sweet potatoes are my favs. Gave up on adding anything as it just set off craving. Keep it simple and bland is best for me.
      Of course they have to be cold out of fridge or set out to obtain room temp to maintain the resistant starch value.

      • Thanks, but to be honest it’s really easy. The accomplishment was Ray getting me to agree to do what he instructed for a few weeks. Now, I’m addicted to the results!

        I did potatoes for 14 days. I still occasionally eat potatoes, purely out of laziness.

      • wayne fearn says:

        What?
        I ate them hot out of the oven.

        No problem with my stats! Where did the science come from just eat your cooked pots hot???

    • Brian Beaven says:

      Great job. Are you just using the potato diet or are you also doing mild cold stress?

      • I use Ray’s alternating cold shower therapy when I have time and think about it. TBO, I’m totally lazy about this at this point. The cold stress is more about feeling good than weight loss.

        I lose weight every single day, cold stress or not. But, I do think cold stress is very important. I found Ray through cold stress and use it to improve sleep, mood, mental clarity.

      • Through private conversations with Ray, I’ve learned a lot about long-term diet. I don’t use potatoes as a primary staple anymore, though I like them. And, unlike my prior fatter, sicker, “low-carb,” “diabetic,” state I can eat rice, beans, potatoes, and I never have substantial glucose spikes, enjoy very low fasting glucose levels, and feel pretty good all the time.

        I won’t to go into details about my diet today, but needless to say it’s pain free and tasty enough. I have a very lazy diet, somewhere between the starchy potato diet and a truly healthful diet that Ray would encourage.

        I benefit from the privilege of calling Ray a personal friend. Ray invited me to his lab, where he connected me to a calorimeter and showed me that I was burning mostly body fat while living on potatoes. I’m very fortunate to have found Ray, and his dedication and investment in knowledge and tech (his lab is super cool) has opened my eyes to a new world previously hidden from me.

        I appreciate that Ray wasn’t hawking potions, powders, or pills. His experiment cost me dozens, not thousands of dollars. I mean, a 10 pound bag of potatoes and a new box of glucose testing strips to watch the “damage.” BTW, those spikes went away in days.

        Warning, if you are diabetic, work with your doctor. You’ll need to change or drop your meds, in days!

        Ray’s forthright approach to sharing his knowledge is a breeze of fresh air. I’m really thankful we’ve connected.

        Ray has transformed my life. If he put out a book, program, or membership, I’d buy it in a heartbeat!

    • admin says:

      Thanks Jason

      You’ve done a great job and its cool to be able to measure your metabolism and watch your face in disbelief. I hope you don’t mind me sharing this story, but Jason came for his second RMR/RQ measurement about the same time he was having his bloodwork done (~ 30 or so days in as I recall).

      During that visit (May 8) his resting RMR/RQ of 1769kacal/.7 down from his Apr 11th first measurement of 2248 kcal/.7, which was 2 weeks after he began (Apr 3). On this day we were going to do a nutritional hood assessment – that is feed him, sit still for 4 hours and watch how his body reacts to the food.

      Now, imagine his face when I said to this former T2DM – you know, FBG in the 160s and highs of 270/300 after a meal – today you are going to eat 400 g of white rice with 30 g of maple syrup and we’ll measure both your blood glucose and metabolic response over the next 4 hours.

      “I like maple syrup,” he said with the look of WTF – are you trying to KILL ME. well, his blood sugar never went above 137 (2 hrs), and was down to 118 before he went home – we sipped some TN Rye Whiskey, because you can’t let a man leave with a high RQ.

      I wil explain more about his tests in the next blog post (PROMISE not to be 2 months) – Getting Schooled by a Senior (Parts 1 & 2). Until then, note that unlike many protocols that remove the antagonist (sugar/carbohydrate) and wait for applause because they’ve “stabilized blood sugar problems,” with jason, he no longer has them – even when he eats simple sugar in the form of syrup and high GI white rice. These aren’t health foods (neither are potatoes necessarily), but this underscores the broken relationship we have with food and the terrible misguided issues caused by “nutritionism.”

      I’m excited because so many people have positive results. This isn’t that difficult to study, but it doesn’t sell pills, powders, screenings and procedures, so who’s going to study it and promote it?

      Me. There is a reason we became obese and chronically ill in the last century in spite of more knowledge and access to healthy food than any time in Human history.

      You can’t out-exercise your mouth. The corollary is, you can’t out supplement your primary diet. If you have problems now (weight, etc…) you likely can’t eat the way you are and reach your desired goals.

      Like seeing the conversation drift. good stuff from all!

      Ray

      • Brian Beaven says:

        That is amazing to me, Ray. Was Jason undergoing mild cold stress for the 4 hours?

        Although I am not diabetic, my son is type 1. Which he developed in his
        twenties. My mother’s side of the family has a history of diabetes as well. So Jason’s results as well as any other of your clients is very important to me.

      • admin says:

        Brian

        Sorry to hear that. I’ve been reading extensively on TYPE 1/2 and juvenile vs adult. Even back to mid 19th century. Please get this book..yesterday, The End of Diabetes. Whether T1DM or T2DM, this food intervention is POWERFUL. physicians typically don’t believe in the power of diet or that patients will actually do it, so it’s very important that your son heed the warnings and work WITH your physician. You might have to push a little harder if they are not advocates of dietary intervention.

        For T2DM, there’s no reason to manage the disease, when most can simply eliminate it (before it progresses to T1.5DM – and it WILL). You will not get better on meds, nobody does, you will manage symptoms.

        T1DM, is likely here to stay for him (depending how long ago he was diagnosed) and this will help him too. I’ve also been using the Dexcom CGM and I ABSOLUTELY recommend you get that for him as well. Get the G4 and this will revolutionize his life. Besides, you can wear it for a week or two and it will probably change your mind about food as well.

        Very eye-opening!

        Ray

        P.S., on the new site I plan to have a diabetes group. Food is so important and the advice most people get is merely to minimize the symptom and does not go to eliminating the root cause.

  31. Brian Beaven says:

    I have 3 questions for those that are having success:
    1. Are you eating anything besides potatoes? Such as salad and other vegetables.
    2. How much time are you exposing yourself to mild cold stress?
    3. Are you using water or air exposure?

    • 1. See my comment above.
      2. Ray’s 10/20/10X protocol.
      3. Water, showers (see 10/20/10X protocol).

      • Brian Beaven says:

        Thanks for your responses Jason. I’ve been following Rays work for a couple of years and I had the pleasure of meeting Ray earlier this year. I am lean 52 year old non- diabetic personal trainer. I’m trying to use Ray’s protocol to help my clients. I’m looking for specific recommendations to give them so they can have successful stories like yours.

  32. brian braith says:

    “in the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.” Camus. Ray, I’ve put in about two years research thus far towards something as solid as physics when it comes to arriving at optimum body fat, optimized health, wellness, incandescent consciousness and so on haha. being into science and things I knew there was a better way. I got pudgy in high school, and since then my quest has been to keep clear of that statet and keep getting better. its important for me to get my family on the wellness wagon. I use the same logic with them I see you use where, hey, I’ll do all the reading, I’ll devour bio technical journals like nobody’s business, just use me. I’m also a NASA freakazoid. totally love making sure people give the space program it’s respect. I’ve had a cold fetish since I was a kid, thermal loading is like that thing on the tip of your tongue, that you know is the answer, but just can’t articulate it. well, I mean you can articulate it but… I did whole body cryotherapy recently with half of my family my grandma is the oldest person in our county yet to do it. and I’ve got mom and her doing contrast showers with moi and am baiting breath for more techniques and devilish details from you. I hereby volunteer all 550,000+ of my families kcal worth of combined adipose tissue looking to be pulverarized to any frigorific plans or website you are involved with! good on you.

    • admin says:

      Great stuff. WE need more space geeks!!!

      An interesting fact, most people don’t know. The Liquid Cooling and Ventilation Garment (LVCG), is actually used to COOL astronauts in EMUs (space suits) not heat them. Despite cold temperatures in the dark/shadows, the vacuum of space is an issue of heat build up, not loss. In fact, the very first critical task of the now retired space shuttle was to open the payload bay doors. These were radiators that are designed to radiate all the heat from the vehicle, people, and systems out into deep space. If they couldn’t open them for some reason, they would have been forced to reenter.

      Scott Parazynski also looked at issue of heating hands during the long EVA (he spent 47 hours out there). Last fall, he was at my home and decided to do some “thermal loading.” Now, hes an extreme athlete, climbed Everest twice, and this years CMO for antartica…but he was shivering like crazy in a short water soak. I played a video of this at my SuperHuman Conference talk (ben greenfield) and then followed with video of my then 13 son, telling stories while in water and completely unaffected.

      It’s all an adaptation and anyone can adapt.

      Thanks for the comment!

      Ray

  33. Feral Boy says:

    I’d be interested in seeing a graph of the RQs vs. time. (Not averages for blocks of time as you’ve done above.)

    • admin says:

      Ok…

      I have two of them handy, but I need to plot the running one. These are breath by breath RQ measurements, IOW, I don’t use a breathing valve and a mixing chamber, which mechanically “average” the RQ over time. I also do a std gas cal (16% O2/5% CO2) before and after a run. Room air, temp, barometric pressure and humidity are all compensated.

      So let’s look at the data, We’ll start with 70F swim. As you can see he starts of normal (as much as one can breathing through a tube outside) and then you see the first spike in RQ hitting the cold water getting in. After that, the characteristic drop on activity start up as cells dump CO2, followed the more steady state. In 60F water, the rise during exercise was higher and then fell as he hit “the wall” a little faster due to cold water.

      As he exits, you will see the two “shivering” episodes (take a look at video from wired and there is a quick shot of this) and then the clear drop in RQ.

      Here is the plot for Kettlebells. I don’t have the ranges on here, but there’s a plot of EEtot and the time scale, so you can orient it to the other. We see the typical drop on exercise start and then afte a few swings, RQ heads up. You can see RQ heads up to ~ 1 and we just see the anaerobic spikes at each exercise period (RQ >1). Then there is the recovery period, he drops down and we end back where we started at ~ 8 mins.

      you should also be able to see the point at which the EEtot slope returns to to pre-exercise phase.

      Hope that helps.

      Ray

      • Kevin Jessop says:

        Looking at all this, I am intrigued by the comments. Being a former collegiate swimmer as well as a current practicing exercise physiologist in the industry, Ray is making bold claims but they are 100% true. Exposure to cold and an improved diet is the best way and one of the safest ways to lose weight for both men and women.

        Right now, I am actually at a world congress for physiologists and they are presenting more information on oxygen uptake during resistance training (I.e. kettle bells).

        Ray, I love the post and the discussion it has created. There is so much which can be learned from all if this and I look forward to assisting you in your quest.

        You have been a great inspiration and friend.

      • Feral Boy says:

        Thanks for posting this additional data. I didn’t expect RQs to be so clearly delineated as regards activity.

        I’m especially curious about the post-swim data. While the rate of energy usage stays fairly constant during the entire recovery period, RQ rises during the shivering period before ultimately settling down to, or lower than, pre-exercise levels. Although the measurements fluctuate wildly, there appears to be a distinct change in RQ as the swimmer transitions from shivering to not shivering.

        While it may be premature to tease too much out of this, or to apply it to a non-exercise scenario, I suspect this could be instructive to cold-therapy users, e.g., if you’re shivering, you’ve probably not doing yourself any favors (at least regarding fat utilization); back off to a less intense mode of cold and fat usage may increase.

      • admin says:

        The data is actually pretty stable – this is breath by breath measurements. That may not have any significance to you, but clearly it resolves what’s going on an there’s no mechanical averaging of a mixing chamber.

        Shivering is a first response – body creating waste heat + ATP. This is an an evolutionary inefficient process and so the body responds by bypassing the shiver (think exercise) and goes straight to heat – with no ATP generated. It used fat instead of glycogen, preserving a valuable substrate.

        Similar shifts occur in endurance runners, but I don’t want to take this off track. The thesis still stands: exercise doesn’t burn much calories, burns the wrong type, and induces unnecessary break down/repair for people that just want to lose body fat. It can be done far more efficiently with dietary intervention.

        Ray.

      • admin says:

        “I suspect this could be instructive to cold-therapy users, e.g., if you’re shivering, you’ve probably not doing yourself any favors (at least regarding fat utilization); back off to a less intense mode of cold and fat usage may increase.”

        Btw, this is exactly the point of mild cold stress vs extreme for the last 2.5 years. Shivering does not get you there – at least while you’re shivering, but it can at least demarcate that ones entered cold stress territory. Once the shiver ceases (and it typically does) then one is almost always burning fat.

        Ray

  34. Neil Vorley says:

    Always leaving us wanting more…

    Here I was thinking I was good boy and it turns out I have TWO addictions – food and exercise! After working in the fitness industry (in a previous career) and looking back I can see its not the answer to fat loss (lots of other benefits) but 99% of the people I inducted in to the gym, joined because they wanted to lose weight (fat)!

    Is there a way to measure or ‘guesstimate’ RQ without a indirect calorimeter? Or is it diet and IF that will keep us moving in the right direction? Basically, any rule of thumb?

    On cold stress – I have a mixer shower so can’t quickly change it from 1 temperature to another for contrast showers. Would a cool bath immersion have a similar affect?

    • admin says:

      Yes. There is a simple diet and it happens to intersect with similar regimes that also produce longevity in every organism tested.

      That was my goal over last year – figure out how to take all the “screenings and tests” out of it. Those are cool, don’t get me wrong, but they don’t change anything.

      It turns out its mostly a head game as you’ve heard others report, but I’m not sure you get there incrementally.

      I’ll say more later. Next two posts will be fun.

  35. neal johnson says:

    Ray

    I had a couple questions
    1. How do you factor in the information on EPOC which seems to fuel the debate on increased metabolism over 36/48hrs post circuit or HITT?

    2. What happens to RQ when lets say I eat a handful of nuts?

    Neal

  36. brian braith says:

    let’s do like a research scavenger hunt to be on the guest list for the new website. If I’ve missed a how to on that, insofar as having access to that bad boy, let me know!. Have you had any scientists from McMurdo Station or the like talk about experiences in maximum environments like that? I mean, I’ve seen “Encounters at the end of the world” (4 times) and there’s clearly no mild stress going on there but is that a fact, they have to eat 20,000 cal more or less daily to prevent wasting? My grandma also wants to know if the cold plunge pool at our gym is worth it? sauna, plunge, sauna, plunge? haha. And yeah, I read that in a PS mag years back about the suit cooling. However anywhere past the neutral zone, like into Romulan space, all bets on thermodynamics are off!

  37. Feral Boy says:

    I’m a little confused by some of the data. You state that Steven’s RMR was initially 1984 kcal/day, which I calculate as 2.76 kcal/min. Later, still resting but nervous, this rises to 3168 kcal/min. I calculate this is equal to 4.4 kcal/min. (For the sake of the experiment, comparing exercise to non-exercise, I think it’s fairest to use the lower figure, but this is not germane to my point.)

    On the presented graph for the kettlebell experiment, however, the line for hypothetical resting energy usage shows 44 kcal / 20 min. This is 2.2 kcal /min, or 1584 kcal/day.

    In the swim experiment data, you use a similar line, but this time it represents 68 kcal / 45 min. This would equal 1.51 kcal/min, or 1088 kcal/day.

    Where are you getting these numbers from? What am I missing?

    • admin says:

      You’re measuring miles with micrometers. I drew lines on paper – I had no intention on doing quantitative analysis, in fact doing so doesn’t even make sense – hence why RQs are in blocks of averages picked to illustrate general concepts. You don’t understand how metabolism works (dynamic) and so you’re applying static analysis to a dynamic system – far outside of the boundary conditions.

      Try understanding the bigger point first, rather than drilling down without understanding an ending up with noise.

      Even better, it’s obvious that I’ve somehow rocked or conflicted your world view – how about being transparent and put that out there rather than attempting to tear into details on a subject you’ve not studied? There’s no shame in being wrong about something – it’s called learning and I do it all the time. I often point out my incorrect notions of meal frequency here.

      I’m pushing hard on you, because this is something I’ve studied in depth and measured and the questions you’re asking don’t make a lot of sense.

      Just simple sentences: this surprises me, because I always thought _______ is going on.

      I’ve got no problem with people disagreeing and presenting some evidence, but I’ve got little patience for the high noise factor of so many blog comments on other sites; one of the reasons I required registration. Trolls don’t want to go to the effort of logging in.

      What is it you are trying to prove? Maybe you’re right, but we are going to get anywhere like this and at the moment you’re only serving to confuse people.

      I’m open. Just be direct.

      Ray

      • Feral Boy says:

        Hey, Ray, why are you attacking me? I’m on your side… I think.

        You’ve made quite a few assumptions about me that aren’t true. You haven’t “rocked” or “conflicted” my world view. And I haven’t disagreed with you. You put out some data, and I asked how you came up with it. This makes me a troll? Listen, Ray, I’m not trying to prove anything. I have nothing to prove.

        On the other hand, you’re correct about one thing: I don’t understand metabolism. And while I don’t know anyone who fully does, I think we’re all trying to help each other to better grasp it. Lashing out at your readers is not the best way to help this process.

        “There’s no shame in being wrong about something”.

      • admin says:

        My goal was not to “attack you,” but I am trying to get you into a productive contribution. I didn’t call you a troll, I said that avoiding random comments from trolls (wanting to incite disagreement to confuse and obfuscate, but have no interest in understanding) is why I required registration. I could have thousands more readers if I changed that one thing on my blog, but if I do, the disruption becomes so great that I can’t help people. I care more about helping people than being popular. If I did think you were a troll, I’d hit the delete button 🙂

        I don’t mind disagreement, but this:

        “RQ still shifts up. You never go above 1.0″

        RQ can be above 1.0 – in fact, your data demonstrate it.

        Has no other purpose than unconstructive antagonism… You could have said, “you say RQ can’t be greater than 1.0, but I see it spike. what causes that?” and I can we can all get somewhere. You aren’t alone in your understanding metabolism and I would have been right by your side a few years ago. That was what the last 4 years of my life has been about as I decided to begin meticulously verifying all of it. If you don’t understand metabolism, then going from comment to comment and offering up answers and explanations doesn’t help. Trying to copy/paste wikipedia data in as if I got this far and had no idea that the stochiometry was different on difference metabolites doesn’t help either.

        So frame things you don’t understand or want to understand in terms of a question and everyone is well served. Part of the entire root cause of the unbelievable notions of obesity explanations are these isolated points, facts taken out of context or generalized, that end up with confusion and contradiction. In the real world, contradictions don’t exist. They only exist when we attempt to figure out what is going on.

        I thermodynamics, there are very interesting phenomena that results in chemical clocks and oscillators (most famous is the iodine clock). In these systems reactants because products and then products react with new species and become the original reactants again. At first this seems to violate the second law of thermodynamics. How can a “river” flow down the mountain and then flow back up to the top again. When one closely examines the systems, they find that this behavior is because the systems are far from thermodynamic equilibrium. When the entire system is taken into account, it all works.

        I did a series of investigations on “self-organized criticality” back in the early/mid 90s. This is most easily explained in what is called “avalanche theory” – add one grain of sand at at a time and eventually it goes critical and slides. We looked at atmospheric models, single cell flagellate organization, bioluminescent, and other systems…

        The body is a complex system and these self organized critical states I believe are a result of chronic over nutrition. The problem is everyone is living in a generalized world and the debate is dominated (like many other important scientific issues), with lots of bandwidth and half-truths.

        so, I will take the high road and apologize for misunderstanding and you do me a favor by helping to frame things within some bounds of what you really understand. I am a HUGE skeptic, but the most productive way to be a skeptic is to ask questions.

        Does that work?

        Ray

      • wayne fearn says:

        Where are you getting these numbers from?

        Real life data that is bucking the normal trend that is highly ingrained in us from the propaganda machine.

        Question the elephant that is and not why the elephants molecules made it so!

      • Feral Boy says:

        Wayne, I got the numbers off of the graphs embedded in the above post. (Should I have framed my answer as a Zen koan?)

      • Brad W says:

        Ray, really looking forward to your hitting the delete button on this troll.

      • admin says:

        I think it’s an honest misunderstanding. I’m good now.

        It’s easy to over analyze especially when there’s such a massive delusion about “metabolism” medical and fitness communities alike.

        Ray

      • Feral Boy says:

        Ray, I’m sorry my comments rubbed you the wrong way.

      • admin says:

        No worries.

  38. brian braith says:

    I take being called a troll as a very high compliment. troll, necromancer whatever. ringlefinch. sorry… haha so my sports club has a pool with a waterfall, a classic Olympic and a warmer guy for the kiddies. amazingly European style we have a cold plunge pool. what in the thermodynamics batman. any clever usages for that sucker? get in, wiggle about, evaporate rinse repeat perhaps? I’m stoked too, I checked my pool at home this am and I got a steady 80f reading. kick off on that tomorrow morning!

    • admin says:

      We all get frazzled from time to time, but the silver lining is there is more explanation then I would have without. So feral boy helped things move further. We all win and I’m not trying to squelch curiosity, but I am up against a lot of momentum and inertia of obviously failed ideas. We aren’t getting healthier as a society.

      Ok, plunge pool. First contrast showed help mitigate that “shock” that causes the shivers. So begin those. Then you can go for a leisure swim at the pool and if temps approaching 80f there’s minimal heat loss, but there are cardiovascular benefits as well as vo2max without huge muscular impact (meaning driving up nutrition demand).

      When you’re done, get into the plunge pool. Don’t try to go too long at first (what’s the temp? Below 60F exercise caution) and lengthen exposure. When you get out mentally try not to start shivering. It’s going to be difficult at first although some people get it early. You will feel the surge of warm. It comes from within and you feel a “runners high” for the next hour or two. I can’t explain it, but you’ll feel it – runners chime in here.

      That’s all. Make sure you minimize food in the hours after. Don’t over eat. High fiber/low calorie.

      Make sense?

      Ray

      • brian braith says:

        Good copy. You know, I realized the chilly rabbit hole I fell down a few years ago on this cold quest all started on a hunch. I was training my ^%$# off for my Cal State ROTC Army program, and I wanted to learn more about scientific approaches to recovery and lipolysis. Cut weight? No, that’s too vanilla, I want lipolysis haha. Anyway, I had a hunch about ice bags, packs, cold, whatever, would have a deleterious effect on janky old inflamed fat cells. That’s the wonder of the internet, there’s other wonks out there hunching like me! luckily some of them have NASA pedigree and an understanding of calorimetry. More on that later. Dude, I have pick the NASA guys brain syndrome so… heads up haha So, I’m taking the therm to the plunge tomorrow. I’ve asked every employee at the gym, and the, ummm, I don’t really know answer has become like a drinking game. I’ll measure myself. Interestingly, been contrasting in the shower all week. Last night, the cold water units of time, could NOT get cold enough. I felt volcanic during the cold part. Near the end I enjoyed, twerking the shower handle up and down 6x back to back, so the water just does like a pre-loaded magazine of contrast packets. Lastly, 78-80f not optimum for a pool? above you said approaching 80f effects only a minimal heat sink… I don’t want maximal, I do whole body cryo for that 2-3 mins, but moderate or mild sounds better than minimal. Am I splitting hairs?

      • brian braith says:

        Oh, and also, the surge of warm. Man alive, my first little cryo sauna trip, five minutes after I got out, my vasodilation began like huge time. Felt tremendous, high all night. My wife had to nap in the car haha, total relaxation. Face gets flush, core blossoms, its like smoking niacin or something. anyway, double reply, boom.

  39. Bryan W says:

    Would be nice to be able to get email notifications of new comments w/o having to make a comment.
    Bryan

  40. Kevin Ready says:

    This is a great discussion, with very valuable contents.
    Since this is just getting started, and Ray has so much invested in the equipment, it makes sense to sign up for a recurring $10/month donation on PayPal.

    I encourage the people following this thread to click the “donate” button. If you like it, take the next step and help out! (Ray has nothing to do with this comment, this is just my unsolicited opinion).

    Ray – Thanks for the great information, and for following up with each question posted.

    Kevin in Austin

    • admin says:

      Wow! Thanks Kevin.

      I appreciate it and I’m putting together a bigger request. As always I appreciate everyone that’s donated and I try to respond to everyone with an email – I may have missed a few so if you’ve not heard from me you can always email me directly.

      Ray

    • wayne fearn says:

      Hi Kevin

      Good call and I have been doing so for a while now. My conscience made me feel guilty for exploiting this huge shift in my world.

      It’s the correct thing to do for a life change!

  41. I don’t know why, but I feel compelled to deal with some of Feral Boy’s question/comments. I’m finding it very hard to refine a bonafide question, point, meaning, or coherent disagreement. As someone who once listened to Ray’s explanations how exercise effects weight loss, and secretly thought “he’s got to be full of it,” I’m very open to questions about the interpretations. Alas, my doubts were all settled with first hand experiments and dozens of pounds of missing fat.

    1) RQ can not be higher than 1.0 because it’s a quotient, and the math doesn’t allow it. Spikes, dips, those are due to short term fluctuations and Ray has already addressed them clearly above, perhaps too much detail and too little layman interpretation. But, if you’re going to argue the science, you need to understand the science.

    Fatties go from fat to thin over the course of miles, not micrometers. And, the body’s use of food, nutrient, and energy stores also happens over long periods of time, not nanoseconds. The nanoseconds science is different, much smaller, cellular, and OT (Off Topic).

    2) The study Ray linked to is called “a successful therapeutic fast of 382 days,” for a reason! And, it’s mindboggling that anyone could argue overweight people burn lean mass during calorie deficit after reading it. 382 days, no significant caloric intake, maintained substantial lean mass!

    The traditional arguments are “if you don’t exercise your body will consume its muscle.” “If you eat fat, you’ll burn more fat.” “Your body needs protein regularly to survive.” “If you starve your body will slow down to a metabolic stand still and you’ll stop losing weight.” So goes the arguments. And, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!

    My data, this man’s data (the guy who fasted for 380+ days), and virtually everyone who has ever done a calorie restricted diet to lose weight rapidly defies all these claims.

    “Five years after undertaking the fast, Mr A.B.’s weight remains around 196 lb.”

    This kills two myths: “Rapid weight loss causes weight regain,” and “if you don’t eat adequate amounts of protein/calories your body will consume its own lean mass.” Wrong, wrong.</b

    Somehow Feral Boy gleaned from that amazing study/experiment that folks died, or that they supplemented electrolytes. And, this is where (again) I’m finding a point as difficult as ice in the Sahara or the proverbial needle in a gluten packed wheat field.

    Yeah, 400+ pounders with morbid obesity related disease do that: die. I don’t think 13 days without food is what killed the fat guy. I think it was the years of self-abuse leading up to the study that did that to him. But, “Only one of the five ‘fasting’ deaths has been associated with a fast of more than 200 days’ duration.”

    Do you know what killed her? Hint: it wasn’t going a long time without food. It was how she reintroduced food. So, as anyone who spends a modicum of time studying fasting already knows, you shouldn’t go on a [very long] fast without qualified supervision. 13 days isn’t a very long fast. In many parts of the world this length of time is called “looking for food.”

    The point of Ray’s posting is likely [not] to debate how fat, sick people are at risk of premature death. Surely, everyone here already agrees to that. The reason he posted that link was to outline just how extreme fasting proves the body doesn’t eat lean body mass when it has an excess of fuel: fat! If the 456lb man who fasted 382 days lost his weight 50/50 fat to lean body mass, he’d be dead, not 196 and alive 5 years later.

    So, if there’s a point to all this I’m lacking facility to refine it from the words I’ve read. It feels quite OT or straining of gnats. But, I’m oft to do that myself. And, a smack is welcome to jolt me back to discussing the real topic.

    • brian braith says:

      I feel you on that one Jason. In fact I found myself extemporaneously debating some surgeons and primary care Dr. the other night. I got a little flippant, but hey… This is what I said, the comments below express no expressions directly towards this blog, but rather towards another blog that thinks Ray is just cutting BMI etc because he’s an avid swimmer now and that thermodynamics is a less god like governing department of physics than I had realized. I must have got A’s in my therm physics classes because its all so easy and its effects are so puny. haha… “The thing I don’t understand about any of the commenters is how do you explain the voluminous peer reviewed published research on whole body cryo therapy? Which is the microcosm of mechanisms taking place in the greater thermal loading genus . Do I really have to set the phaser on citations? We are under thinking, or over thinking things on this thread. Not arriving enough on the golden mean. If liquid nitrogen is convincing my nervous system there is a legit challenge on for survival, or at very least conservation of favorable environment, does my physiology not compensate by various means? do these compensations not have correlations to what Ray has to say? are these compensations not rare and amazing compared to historic techniques? Is swimming in a water temp at say 18-20+ degrees below my homeostatic range not amortizing the aforementioned process? Is there really no relationship? See that? Yeah: the old guard notions fail quadratically with the cogency of the object moving through it.” I assure you, they started it… haha

    • Feral Boy says:

      Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more! First, congratulations on your weight loss, Jason. I am envious. I would like to lose 15-20lb myself, but the results are eluding me.

      I wish you would have replied in the appropriate section; as it stands, I’m not sure where best to put my response – here, or in the original nest. I guess I’ll do it here, and just summarize the history:

      First: I am not criticizing Ray’s success or methods. Ray has not published data from his client-work, that I’ve seen, so I take him at his word. Also, I don’t think he’s ever elucidated his program, committing only to 1) be cold more, and 2) eat less. He’s been coy about the details, thus the regular barrage of questions in the “comments” section: “How do I take a shower?”, “How do I eat potatoes?”, “Can I eat them with ice cream”, etc. So I am not commenting on those subjects. And I’d like to lose weight, as most of you probably do. Again: I’M ON YOUR SIDE!

      My only issue is with very specific statements that seem patently false; accepting these statements as true will not help us get to the Promised Land! (Well, we might get to the Promised Land, in spite of them, but still…)

      Ray wrote in the original post: “RQ (respiratory quotient) is a breath by breath analysis during the period measured of the % Fat and % Carbohydrate being utilized… RQ is EXTREMELY sensitive to activity and is constantly changing to accommodate the body’s fuel needs.” [Actually, the RQ doesn’t change to accommodate the body’s fuel needs; it reflects the change in fuel substrates, which is dictated both by diet and activity, and varies between types of tissue. But I won’t quibble further on this.]

      Jason wrote: “…the body’s use of food, nutrient, and energy stores also happens over long periods of time, not nanoseconds.”

      Well, which is it, boys? Breath-by-breath, or over long periods of time? It’s obvious to me that the body is using fuel constantly, and the substrates used are reflected in the breath-by-breath RQ measurement, with each breath’s reading being an average of the substrates used over a breath-size interval, transposed by an amount of time necessary for metabolites to travel from tissue to lungs. Sorry, Jason.

      Ray wrote: “RQ still shifts up. You never go above 1.0″. First, let me say I think Ray’s heart is in the right place, and that he just overstepped a bit with this statement. I was not playing “gotcha”, I was correcting a error before it became an indelible entry into the hypothermics dogma. I thought his approach was to be data-driven, not ideology-driven, and he would appreciate the correction.

      Anyway, is this true? Well, let’s first look at it analytically. There are substrates which result in an RQ>1.0. I listed some of them previously. Do these substrates make a significant contribution to the total RQ? Beats me, but if they exist, RQ>1.0 is possible. That should be the end of the story.

      Now, let’s look at it empirically. Ray reports that his machine measured RQs up to about 1.35. I take him at his word. Also, in a comment, Kevin Jessop wrote that when he was doing Atkins he found it difficult to get his RQ above 1.0. He did not write that it was impossible, only that getting it above 1.0 was difficult. So we have two examples from this blog entry with measured RQs above 1.0. This should REALLY be the end of the story.

      Now, let’s look at it mathematically. Jason writes: “RQ can not be higher than 1.0 because it’s a quotient, and the math doesn’t allow it.” This is ridiculous; a quotient is just the result of one number divided by another. 2 divided by 1, the quotient is 2. Impossible? In what way?

      But perhaps he meant to write that if RQ>1 there would be more oxygen in the dividend (CO2 going out) than in the divisor (O2 going in), begging the question, “Where’s the extra oxygen coming from? How can you have more oxygen atoms going out than are being breathed in?” (God, I even have to write the rebuttals to myself around here.) Great question, Jason! Let’s find an answer!

      Oh, here’s one: Some (many?) substrates have oxygen built into them; one example I’ve already cited is malic acid: “Malic acid is an organic compound with the formula HO2CCH2CHOHCO2H. [So… lots of oxygen.] It is a dicarboxylic acid that is made by all living organisms, contributes to the pleasantly sour taste of fruits, and is used as a food additive…Its RQ contribution is 1.33.” [Wikipedia]

      A bonus corollary to the above several points: RQ is an average of all the different substrates being used, from all the different living tissues in the body. Now, the body doesn’t do a whole lot of anything at 100%; this is certainly true with energy substrates. The heart, for instance relies primarily upon fatty acids (and ketones, if available). Let’s say that an RQ is measured as 1.0. Ray, Kevin, et al., will claim this means 100% of energy is being derived from CHO. (This NEVER happens, but bear with me.) Unless the person is dead (which we will know by RMR approaching zero), then this is impossible: the heart (plus skeletal muscle, actually) will be burning fatty acids at RQ of about 0.7; therefore, the body MUST be burning some other substrates, somewhere, which have RQs higher than 1.0 in order for the net average to be 1.0. And, again, the body will NEVER use 100% CHO if the heart is beating.

      Ray denies that protein plays a role in fasted metabolism, but as I’ve cited earlier, studies show amino acids make a significant contribution to energy during exercise. Plus, with an RQ of about 0.85, this again suggests – nay, demands! – that there must be other significant substrates with RQs higher than 1.0, in order for the instantaneous average to be 1.0.

      Ray claims examples of “300+ days of fasting with no significant lean tissue loss” and that lean tissue loss comes only from “deliberate breakdown (through exercise) without sufficient diet to repair/rebuild”. Again, Ray is a passionate man, with a lot of comments to respond to, and I think the reins got away from him a bit on this one. He surely can’t believe this is true. I think he was caught up in the moment and drifted into hyperbole.

      I presented the image of a heavily-muscled, steroid-free man; if this man stops exercising will he still have the same lean mass one year later, assuming either he has enough body fat to survive fasting, or, if not, he supplements with enough calories from dietary sources? Common sense, and experience, suggests otherwise. Anyway, Ray responded that bodybuilders are exempted from his thesis – “people that have shifted their body so far away from a normal function that they don’t function normal.” If, instead, Ray were to say that the loss of lean tissue is less than most people would suppose, and that this loss is worth it in the end, then that would be a reasonable claim and I wouldn’t quibble with it.

      But muscle tissue needs to be fed, and thus presents a metabolic burden on the body; therefore, the body only maintains the level of muscle it thinks it needs for continued survival in its contemporaneous environment. This is the basis of bodybuilding: by placing an artificially large load on muscles, the muscles respond by increasing in size in order to accommodate that load. The muscles “think” that load is a part of the environment. Once a person stops applying that load, the muscles shrink to a size that can then accommodate the normal day-to-day loads.

      (Here’s a recent personal example: my local Rec Center closed for two weeks for semi-annual maintenance. I took this as an opportunity to give my body a break from strength-training, and to allow for “deep recovery”, and so did no exercise at all during this two weeks. Afterwards, it took me FOUR weeks of consistent training to recover the strength that I had lost during the TWO weeks I’d missed.)

      In the case of an obese person, the leg muscles will have swelled in order to ambulate the increased body weight, if activity remained similar. (Arm muscles, to, if the person is a big fan of the monkey bars.) If that person loses weight – any combination of lean and fat – I would expect the mentioned muscles to shrink, even if there is no energy-specific need for catabolism, because those muscles are no longer under the same regular loads. This would be reflected by additional weight loss, though it is not coming from adipose tissue.

      Ray cited a study about one man fasting under medical supervision. I have nothing against fasting, but I questioned why he cited this study, as it did nothing to support his point. The doctors did not measure lean mass before or after the fasting, so we know nothing about the proportion of fat vs. lean tissue lost during the study. Yet Jason later declares that this study “proves the body doesn’t eat lean body mass when it has an excess of fuel”. IT DOES NOTHING OF THE SORT! This was never measured!

      Jason also wrote: “Somehow Feral Boy gleaned from that amazing study/experiment that folks died, or that they supplemented electrolytes.” Yes, Jason, I gleaned this because I read the study and both of these things are true. During the 382 days of his fast, vitamin supplements were given daily as ‘Multivite’ (BDH), vitamin C and yeast for the first 10 months and as ‘Paladac’ (Parke Davis), for the last 3 months. Non-caloric fluids were allowed ad libitum. From Day 93 to Day 162 only, he was given potassium supplements (two effervescent potassium tablets BPC supplying 13 mEq daily) and from Day 345 to Day 355 only he was given sodium supplements (2.5 g sodium chloride daily). [So, really, not fasting. They gave him vitamins, yeast, and electrolytes. But close enough, I suppose. I’m not arguing against fasting. I love fasting!]

      Jason also boasts that “Only one of the five ‘fasting’ deaths has been associated with a fast of more than 200 days’ duration.” as if this were a good thing; the fact is “only one” fasting death occurred after 200 days because the other four people were already dead, and the researchers didn’t allow them an opportunity to die a second time. So, I don’t see your point. The study mentioned several other successful fasts, and five deaths. I have nothing against fasting, but this is a pretty grim set of facts. The authors of the study write: “…longer term fasting (i.e. longer than 40 days) has an element of risk attached (Lawlor & Wells, 1971).”

      Finally, as regards all these “myths”: did you read them in the back of a comic book, next to the ads for X-Ray Spex and Charles Atlas? Who would believe these statements? You are trying to knock over straw men.

      Can we go back to talking about potatoes and showers again?

      • wayne fearn says:

        Feral Boy,

        Mmmmmm……

        Set up a blog, do your own experiments and present them. Give me you blog address and i will take a look.

        This is what i am doing with Ray, I don’t know science but the things he has said to do I did, the results he said i would have i had and he has promised more info that breaks the myth of food and how that may relate to me!

        I enjoy his posting and where he is going because there is NOTHING else i have tried that worked to the letter. Blind belief? I don’t think so because WE can all replicate it.

        I don’t need to know the geographical position of china, the language or the history to be able to cook and enjoy rice (and lose body fat). So why do you persist in dragging this down to a level most lay people ( probably about 6.5 billion of us) cannot comprehend.

        This is not one man going alone at the detriment to his followers. Ray repeatedly tells the blog that the results are constantly reviewed by peers in the field.

        I think he is on to something NO one else is doing this in the way he is and presenting his findings to the public.

        So please until YOU do it and have your own findings as a comparative please stop with the belittling and fruitless attacks.

        Also if i wanted to read wiki i would, but again don’t you think this is the very info Ray knows, understands and has researched prior to the path that has lead him to test and see for himself if any of it is REAL?

        What are you here for? Have you looked at all the blog postings and the comments because you would have a better understanding of the potato test and the contrast showers.

        I hope Ray does answer your latest post because i would be interested in his reply; however i would be equally disappointed that Ray is spending his time with your disagreements and not presenting his next findings that most of us are hanging on for.

      • Well, I’d like to hash out the disagreements on how the data proves or disproves Ray’s analysis if there’s such a point to be made.

        And, I’d love to go back to potatoes and showers. Only, Ray is talking about exercise and I think you’re challenging his data and analysis. Of course, you haven’t clearly challenged anything in a concise manner other than this assertion that an RQ can be > 1.0. So, there’s a tinge of ad hominem flare on both sides because there’s no clear analysis debate or germane disagreement to debate.

        Since you brought it up let me address the facts you did challenge, sorta.

        “RQ is EXTREMELY sensitive,” and “the body’s use of food, nutrient, and energy stores also happens over long periods of time,” don’t conflict. To clarify, Ray deals with the >1.0 indicators on the gas analysis by explaining why that happens, and why it is not an RQ greater than 1.0. Why, because 1.0 is the top end of the measurement based on how the human body functions. Those fluctuations on a breath by breath basis are milliseconds. The useful data, where we derive RQ, is a larger sample. A cell expressing stored CO2 isn’t human respiration, so it’s minuscule and not pertinent to the conversation.

        This is where a scientist throws in the “measuring miles by micrometers.”

        You keep saying RQ goes over 1.0 and protein (I can only assume you mean protein gluconeogenesis) should be factored or that Ray ignores them, or that Ray pretends they don’t happen. If you’ll read the literature and extensive research on the subject, you’ll see why they do not factor into this data at all.

        The fasting data is a clear example of long-term fasting in test subjects where lean mass is never consumed for energy. If it were in any substantial portion to the fat used, they would be devoid of lean mass.

        I’m happy to return to potatoes and showers. But, I do think challenges to data should be cleared up if you’re going to claim a conversation on scientific basis.

      • I should add, the myths are widely sold by virtually everyone selling protein/fat based diets to lose weight. It infects virtually any conversation on “proteins, fats, and carbs.”

        If you read Dr. Atkins work, he clearly discusses using fat as a catalyst for ketogenesis. Virtually any protein/fat diet teacher will insist that fat is essential to kick starting the fat burning process. If you’ve missed that, you’ve missed the dietary literature virtually everyone here has been exposed to over the majority of their lean pursuits.

        Not trying to attack you, because I haven’t seen you claim ANY of this stuff. But, it’s an important set of myths to debunk since almost all of us hear this crap.

      • Kevin Jessop says:

        Ok… Ray did have some breaks that went above an RQ of 1.35, but that is because our physiology changes breath-by-breath.

        At rest, an RQ should never be >1.0. If it is, this indicates anaerobic metabolism equivalent to approaching VO2 max, and that Would include the production of lactic acid.

        When I referred to my Adkins diet years ago, and my RQ never getting above 1.0, that was referring to maximal exercise.

        In the spirit of Full Disclosure, I am an exercise physiologist by education and work for a manufacturer of Metabolic, Bod Pod and Pulmonary Function Equipment. I am responsible for setup, training, service and calibration for all of our high profile customers including Hospitals, Key Opinion leaders and universities all over the country.

        I have tried different diets and nothing worked. Ray was able to CHANGE MY LIFE, and for that, I am forever grateful (like Jason). Through working with Ray, and using my personal equipment, I was able to continuously monitor my metabolism over my transformation. None of this has been posted on this blog, but… Maybe that will happen soon.

        I was the one who even setup the equipment for Ray and Trained him. I know the data is accurate and the procedure is being followed closely.

        The human body is a very complex system and mathematical equations do not always work.

        I would suggest we just understand that Ray is trying to post very simple information out there and not try to delve into the metabolic processes. This information can be found in any textbook, but will put you to sleep.

        My suggestion, give this a try because it works. You will see that those 15-20lb disappear fast. And please let us know how it goes.

        Let’s just look at this as an educational lesson and move on.

        Kevin Jessop, RPFT
        Clinical Application & Training Manager
        COSMED USA.

      • Feral Boy says:

        Again, I have nothing against Ray, or his methods, or any positive results some of you have seen. (Down, boys, down!) Yet it’s disappointing no one here will address my salient points – I suspect some of you read my nom de web and go straight into defense/attack mode.

        Wayne, I now understand you are correct – I am writing for the wrong audience. I will fight no more forever.

        Jason, I’m not sure how else to help you with your comprehension of my comments. I tried really hard to make them clear and concise, but apparently have failed. My bad, as the kids say. I’ll try to move along. You wrote: “If you’ll read the literature and extensive research on the subject…” PLEASE, JASON, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HYPOTHERMIC, GIVE ME SOME LINKS. (Seriously!)

        Kevin, am I to understand that you DIDN’T achieve an RQ>1? You wrote earlier that you only found it difficult to do so, implying that you had achieved it. Please clarify. Also, if you can provide information as to how my chemistry is wrong I WOULD LOVE to see it! I realize your company’s reputation depends upon my ideas being wrong, so this should be an easy one for you.

        As regards Ray’s program, Kevin: again, I would love to try it but, as far as I know, it has never been posted. Hints, but never a commitment to anything specific. Fuhrman-esque, is the closest he’s come. Care to help 10,000 people (that was Ray’s goal, I believe) by posting what you know? Or, better yet, Ray?

        I actually tried the potato diet for two weeks back when Ray first posited the experiment. He didn’t say why to do it, or what the experiment might yield, or through what process that yield may occur, as I recollect. Anyway, during Week 2, I developed severe and alarming health problems. I won’t claim causation at this point, but it was a frightening correlation. I did lose a few pounds, but nothing close to the advertised rate. Months later, in an attempt to skirt around the previous crisis, but keeping within the spirit, I lived on rice and beans with no additional fat, all cooked from scratch. I developed another, different, health problem. Again, a few pounds lost but I bailed at 1 1/2 weeks due to extreme fat cravings – I just had to have salmon/avocado sushi rolls!

        I didn’t want to mention these episodes because of the vicious attacks on ellie Rilie, Brian W, and Cody Fyler, in the previous post. It seems if you’re not in lock-step with the company line around here you get stomped on! Plus, I don’t want to blather on about myself – I would rather discuss ideas.

        Anyway, I’m going to dabble again – starting today, actually – using some variation of low-fat, whole-food. Best wishes, FB.

      • brian braith says:

        Hey Kevin,
        Do you know anything about that German stuff, EWOT (exercise with oxygen therapy)?

      • brian braith says:

        And FB said let there be links, and there was links, and it was ? “With extended knowledge on these factors it can be ascertained if a pharmacological regimen is possible which would mimic the effects of chronic cold or elevated catecholamine levels, without attendant side effects.”
        Why there is a role being played and its variability
        1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12806223
        Why the data is dynamic and important to mine
        2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12733325
        Why numbers vary but they don’t lie
        3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11960973
        Why its a unique mechanism
        4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877922

      • brian braith says:

        Oops, FB wanted links on RQ and protein. I’m trigger link happy. It seems that in that RQ test the assumption is generally made the “metabolic mixture comprises only carbohydrate and fat.” So is this just the general set up then on the test?

      • Feral Boy says:

        And lo, the Feral Boy read the links (sort of), and saw that they are not good:

        Wrong subject, as you later note, but what’s more the abstracts all read as some variation of, “There’s something going on here and we should really get around to studying it later” They don’t really “say” anything:
        1. “…require more well controlled studies.”
        2. “Further studies of UCPs will improve the knowledge of mitochondrial metabolism and substrate oxidation.”
        3. “Answers to fundamental questions regarding the metabolic functions of the new UCPs are thus pending and more research is needed to elucidate their physiological functions.”
        4. “Whether the induction of UCP1, the induction of other UCP or chemical mild uncoupling represent promising strategies for attenuating nutrient efficiency and counteracting obesity should be considered.”

        Furthermore, the second link’s abstract is erroneous: “…regulation of body weight requires energy of foods to be entirely dissipated as heat.” This is not true. It ignores “work” as a variable. The article was originally in French, so perhaps there was an error in translation, but when respiration is coupled to ATP production, the ATP can be used to perform work.

        But most puzzling: the titles you gave the links do not seem to reflect the content within their abstracts.

  42. Thomas Hemming says:

    Hi Ray,

    Very interesting work you have done, I’m really looking forward to see what you have for us the next time.

    I have a question rergarding the experiment with sitting in the 60F water. Steven’s metabolic rate had not returned to normal even after 37min of being out of the pool but his RQ dropped after 9min to 0.74, right? Obviously, that would be very interesting as it means that Steven is burning more calories overall and additionally a higher percentage of them coming from fat.

    Did I understand the outcome correctly?

    Currently I’m taking 5-8min cold showers morning and evening. Would it be better to alternate hot and cold water for 10sec and 20sec cold to enhance blood flow or would that routine make it harder to cold adapt?

    For future posts I think it could be interesting to also focus on the health benefits of cold thermogenesis not just how it works for weight loss. That said, I really admire the enormous work you’re doing on verifying old claims. I very much agree with your approach that finding the truth is the most important goal – not about sticking to old or new dogmas.

  43. Jason says:

    Ray,

    I continue to be fascinated by the work you are doing. I wanted to quickly chime in after I saw your link to the palmar cooling work being done at Stanford. I previously worked at a company that distributed products to fire depts. One of the big challenges that fire fighters face is the effect of the extreme temperatures the deal with when they fight a fire. So much so that there are certain cooling protocols they follow to recuperate quickly. There was one product that was focused on forearm cooling to rapidly bring down their core temperature before they got back into the fight: the (full disclosure, I no longer work for that distributor nor do I have any relationship with the company that makes this chair). There are a few white papers posted on their site, but I don’t have a ton of other data to provide. It’s always interesting to see how the practices / knowledge from diverse areas seem to converge as you get closer to the underlying concepts.

    I’m anxiously awaiting your next posts and am going to get started on the contrast showers and ‘potato’ experiment.

    Jason

    • admin says:

      jason

      Good stuff. Localized cooling is a great thing and REALLY works. In terms of “sucking calories out” it’s probably not as efficient, but there’s no doubt that it can cool. My friend Kurt, over at Veskimo, has a painstaking attention to detail and unbelievably well-engineered products. In the middle of the summer here (think high-humidity and hot), I can be biking or even cutting the lawn, push the on button and – swooosh – instant cool. I can’t say enough good things about kurt or his products.

      Extremities are a great place to work, since adipose is so thin and vascularity is high. Keeping the blood flow there is the challenge and that has been demonstrated in both the stanford lower pressure gloves and NASA Lower Body Negative Pressure (LBNP) protocols to counter blood shift in long duration weightlessness.

      Ray

      • Feral Boy says:

        Ray, from what you’ve read or investigated, is there any advantage to localized cooling at the probable brown-fat locations versus localized cooling elsewhere (assuming heat transfer is equal). Ever since 4HB, people are crazy for ice packs on the neck or upper back, but is cold somehow more effective when applied there? I’ve assumed that there is a central mechanism for temperature regulation, and thus thermogenesis control, in which case location wouldn’t matter.

      • admin says:

        I haven’t seen any and it’s hard to tease out what localized cooling does. I’m not a fan of ice backs due to increased chance of skin nerve damage. Over all it seems that up regulation is systemswide and BAT or not there’s an effect. I believe the mild cold stress is longer lasting and much more tolerable once conditioned.

        Ray

      • Jason says:

        Very interesting vests. Both they and the glove from the Stanford experiment remind me of the cooling apparatus that I was given to speed post-op recovery from a shoulder surgery. Basically a pump that pulls ice water out of a cooler and feeds it through a plastic cooling pack where you could adjust the exchange of heat by speeding or slowing the pump.

        They mentioned the low pressure vacum in the Stanford video (haven’t read the full paper on the results yet, on my list for today) but it hadn’t occurred to me that they were using it to maintain blood flow in the palm. I’d be interested to see what other occupations / activities have overheating problems and the solutions they have come up with to manage them.

        Jason

  44. Andrew Miller says:

    Ray, have you measured the effects of ice packs on the back vs. submersion for the RQ of fat burning? It seems like this would be a cheaper/easier/less shocking way to do cold stress.

    • admin says:

      Andrew

      I have not. What concerns me about repeated ice packs (or ice in general) is nerve damage to the skin. It’s not my recommended way to do cold stress and nothing I have seen makes me feel that BAT has to play the front and center role – many don’t have significant BAT, but they have skeletal muscle with mitochondrion that can be unregulated to produce heat.

      I will keep in mind as it would be interesting to see what happens (especially to someone that’s not accustom to cold). In general, I would prefer to see you doing the contrast showers to get a morning/evening serotonin hit and to mute your “fight or flight” to cold and then use the chronic exposure over time. As well in water temps above 60F(~16C) it will be far more tolerated and you’ve seen what happens with a swim.

      Ray

  45. Edward Grigoryan says:

    Hi Ray,

    Very cool post, and I appreciate your research and your commitment to objective science. I have a simple question: when I do an intense “metabolic conditioning” session, such as 30 minutes of a combination of KB exercises and calisthenics, or even just 10 minutes of KB snatches with minimal rest, my heart rate remains elevated for several hours after the training session. For example, in a 10 minute KB snatch session, I might spike my heart rate as high as 182 bpm, and my HR average over 10 minutes is usually between 168 and 172 bpm. After that, my HR drops fairly rapidly to about 120 bpm, then the rate of decline goes down until at about 5 min post training, it hovers just over 100 bpm and stays there for about an hour. At this point, HR declines very slowly, and is usually something like 80 bpm even up to 3 hours post training. My resting HR averages at about 60 bpm, and I don’t get back to that until something like 7-8 hours post training. I have compared this to lighter aerobic activity, such as jogging at about a 10 min/mile pace for 30 min while maintaining HR at about 140-145 bpm, and my HR returns to baseline within 2 hours. I assumed that this indicated that the KB training was thus a more intense perturbation to metabolism, causing the body to expend more calories to restore homeostatic equilibrium. This phenomenon is of course referred to as EPOC in exercise physiology textbooks, and though I haven’t look at this in a while, I thought that there was an abundance of literature supporting the concept of elevated metabolism post exercise, with higher intensity exercise resulting in greater elevations in the metabolic rate. Am I missing something? Or does your point have to do with RQ, and that while metabolism is elevated, it doesn’t matter, because RQ never indicates more relative fat burning than is achieved at rest? But even if RQ is equivalent post training to what it is at rest, doesn’t the absolute increase in metabolism still necessarily draw more fuel from fat than it otherwise would at rest without an exercise induced metabolic perturbation?

    • admin says:

      Edward

      What you are seeing is real. There is increased caloric burn with EPOC, but you are exactly the person that would be used to generalize these ideas across the board. Think less specifically and focus on the goal I have painted: The obesity pandemic and people trying to lose enough weight so that they even feel like exercising on a regular basis. There are MANY people in the 20-50 lb overweight category and thousands that have read this blog or summited data.

      Look at the total calorie expended for the exercise activity and even include this EPOC%(it varies widely with fitness level all the way down to non existent) and compare it to just a single, bad meal. It vanishes. WHat happens is that we use these generalized notions, primarily researched under elite athletes or competitors, and then apply it with a broad brush to the perceived Diet < -> Exercise. On one hand we have a group of people saying we don’t “move enough” and that’s why everyone is getting fat and on the other a “calorie isn’t a calorie” invoking all kinds of extreme hormonal imbalance.

      Now, let’s look at the solution. If I have 50 lbs (22.6 kg) of fat to lose, or a deficit of 175,000 calories, how do I go about doing it? Well, I might decide to run 67 marathons (~2600 kcal each). That is going to take time, but let’s do better, let’s say half of the calories are from the marathon (only 33 to run – whew) and half are from caloric reduction. Now we enter the zone of failure. If I just assume without question that I am going to run these 33 marathons and know I won’t be burning full fat – even at my best, now how must I eat to prepare for them?

      and in it is the conundrum. There is significant damage and repair associated with running 33 or 67 or 5 marathons (any of my elite runners want to chime in) and this is not the time to begin to restrict significant calories, or that broken down tissue isn’t properly repaired and you get…drum roll, lean mass loss.

      I used an extreme example, but the arithmetic rolls all the way down the down. People can needle over RQ (the mass majority got the point) or if we everyone wants to have a “my metabolism is broken” or “I’m boosting my metabolism” party – knock yourself out. The numbers are paltry compared to food and one cannot maintain the exercise regime you are doing on a shitty diet. Caloric restriction of any kind is a shitty diet for growth or hypertrophy. When the difference is measured in small amounts (the body is better suited to scavenge and store calories here and there then grab them during a binge – like you saw in my or Tim’s “cheat day” experiments).

      It’s a choice, when you know it, but no one else seems to be talking about it. I have email requests every week from people that have “plateaued” or need to lose the “stubborn last 15-20 lbs.” It’s for them, I am targeting this approach. One puts aside activity, maintains a good deficit, and achieves the same level of fat loss as water fast (as measured by bioimpedance scales, BodPods and DEXA), with none of the downside damage to the intestinal microbiome from no food and no refeeding issues.

      This is not how to win the gold medal in curling, but it is a way to achieve amazing fitness – fast, at which time one can resume and hit it hard.

      Hope that makes sense. What you are experiencing is real, but if you have significant body fat to lose there is a separate, more efficient way to do it.

      Ray

      • neal johnson says:

        Hi again Ray

        So I have 4 friends who I am experimenting with. Yesterday I stopped 2 of from exercising except one day or so of leisure walking in evening. They are on veges and beans/rice, no added fat. Sleeping in cooler environment and using the alternating cold and hot showers.
        They are all at different fitness levels. One has at least 30lbs to lose(I day walking), 2 are trying to buildup muscle (3 day strength workouts with adequate nutrition to support repair), one has is pretty muscular and wants to lose 10lb(1- 2 days a week high volume strength training), then there is me trying to get to that 8-10% body fat.

        First of all, can you critique my experiment and secondly, I am wondering if there is a limit to this? I know that you have thoughts on how low is too low past homeostasis. However, what regimen would you suggest in my case? I know that another 3-5lbs of fat will get me there but I am wanting to know if I risk plateau by going this far. I’m accustomed to 4-5 day work outs and I think I’m pretty strong and fit actually. BP 110/67, eating hear rate usually between 42-45bpm etc.

        What are your thoughts?

      • Edward Grigoryan says:

        Makes sense. Seems like EPOC has the potential to add something like 100 extra calories expended for the day, which of course is paltry if one does not have diet under control. Also, that type of training makes me ravenously hungry.
        I meant to add that I am not overweight and am not seeking to cut body fat, but advise many people on weight loss and health for my job and have increasingly started making (sensible) suggestions for implementing cold thermogenesis in overweight/obese individuals who are struggling with weight loss. I have drawn from Ferriss, Wim Hof (really enjoyed his book), and the research literature on BAT and CT, of which I have read a lot but still have plenty to read. I just started reading the posts in your blog and now see that this will be a very useful resource, as you have been developing this idea and helping people out for some time now.
        While I am not trying to lose fat, CT is a part of my daily routine as I enjoy it and like being cold adapted. I would like to eventually build up to cold water swimming and some of the other more advanced CT practices. I am convinced that cold exposure/adaptation plays a very important role in maintaining good health, and look forward to seeing the research that will be coming out on this in the next several years and beyond. I particularly found the data on elevations in adiponectin in response to cold exposure to be fascinating.
        I noticed that you made a call for more space guys in a post above, so I would like to add that you have another one right here! I went on a parabolic flight about 2 years ago as an undergrad at UC San Diego with a team of 4 other students. Our project was accepted by NASA’s Microgravity University Reduced Gravity Student Flight Opportunities Program for a parabolic flight. We built a model emulating human cerebro-vascular flow to measure the effects of microgravity on intra-cranial pressure. That amazing experience was the beginning for me. My background is in neuroscience and physiology, but I read obsessively about all aspects of space whenever I can. I am an amateur astronomer who owns a 8-inch reflector to observe and study the heavens.
        Thank you for this site and the contributions you are making to the fields of CT and weight loss. I’ll be around reading, commenting and learning.

        Best,
        Ed

  46. Kevin Jessop says:

    FB – when I spoke about RQ in my earlier post on Adkins. Keep in mind, this was about 8 years ago. It was difficult to achieve an RQ during exercise. I think I stopped exercise at a RQ of 0.98 rather than my normal 1.20-1.30.

    Normal physiologic response during incremental exercise is a RQ>1.09 at peak exercise.

  47. helder maia says:

    Ray alright. I’m addicted to reading your articles, I really like your research and think amazing what u doing this.
    I understand that doing the exercises we left the burning zone fat and carbohydrate used as a primary fuel and I believe this occurs even with glycogen stock are depleted. But that will be using a small amount of carbohydrate, something like 60gr about before the exercise, amount only to avoid lean mass breakdown and maintain without ingestion of carbo after training and throughout the next day. We know RQ back to normal levels after minutes of recovery (~.85).I ask this also because the process of tissue regeneration will need calories and I think that moment favorable because the RQ at this point already be in .85 plus carb depleted. I do not know if I was clear, im brazillian and my english is very poor..kkkk.

    Helder

  48. Anna Korenina says:

    Ray, thank you for your research of cold exposure and exercise, the difference is impressive. Looking forward to your next blog with great eagerness.

    Feral Boy, if you don’t mind my asking, what kind of health problems did you have trying Ray’s plan? And contrary to what others may have led you to believe, your comments and RQ explanation was appreciated, keep them coming.

    And finally, anybody who has tried Ray’s diet and was successful with it, can you comment on your cravings? Did you not crave fat or protein or salt or chocolate at all? Did you go out and were and were able to use your willpower to order steamed veggies and eat only that? Did you ever “cheat” and if no, how long were you able to eat only rice, beans and vegetables for before eventually reverting to eat some other foods?

    Thank you all in advance for answering.

    • Feral Boy says:

      Anna Korenina, how heartening it is to receive a non-insult! Here’s too much information for you. (Everyone else will want to skip over this comment. In fact, now that I’ve gone over the text myself, I’m pretty sure that Anna should skip it as well. It’s self-indulgent and boring.)

      First of all, as I noted: I don’t know what Ray’s “plan” is. But I lived upon mostly potatoes for two weeks (with, initially, some cooked plain white rice that I had on hand, and a bit of steamed broccoli) and plain leafy greens daily. I did use salt, however. Liberally.

      The potatoes did sate my appetite, but I was hungry again soon after every meal. In fact, I was hungry constantly, and consequently ate many meals each day.

      During the second week my torso became tingly, and I lost almost all strength in my arms – I could not raise them! A stroke? A heart attack? My heart was racing, and when I checked my blood pressure it was very high: a systolic of one hundred fifty-something. I regained strength within about one hour. I was very shaken by this. It happened on two occasions, and possibly a third time to a lesser degree, although it may have been paranoia by that point.

      Two members of my family have MS, so I was concerned that this was a symptom. MS is poorly understood, especially by me, but it appears to be related to damage to the (electrically) insulating, fatty myelin sheath encasing nerves in the CNS. Could it be that my very-low-fat diet uncovered a pre-existing MS condition, I wondered? Was my body unable to maintain nerve sheath integrity without dietary fat?

      After the two weeks I went back to a paleo-ish diet, and the episodes have not recurred. (It’s been about nine months.) I saw my doctor shortly afterwards and he was baffled, but by then the symptoms had been long gone. And I’m sure my experience doesn’t apply to the general population. Anyway, a correlation with the diet, but no evidence of causation – just wild speculation on my part, something to keep me up at night.

      During the two weeks, I lost a few pounds, and while it was less than the lower end of the purported range, it was something! Then I gained it right back.

      On my second stint, months later, I tried rice + beans for every meal. After a couple of days I had CONSTANT and EXTREME cravings for fatty food. It was very difficult to stay true (though I did). Ironically, Feral Boy is a bit of a bon vivant. Or, as the pejorative local parlance goes: my relationship with food is broken.

      My lip split open and wouldn’t heal. (I think my body doesn’t like beans – this has happened before.) My arms lost all of their visible vascularity. (I have struggled with borderline-high blood pressure, about 130/80, for a long time. I hoped that the loss off vascularity was indicative of a lowering of BP, but this turned out to not be the case; BP was unchanged.) I suffered from weakness, a lack of energy and “brain fog”. I gave up after 9 days, following a ski race I’d been in.

      Again, I lost about three lbs. My waist stayed the same circumference, I lost 3mm in total three-location skin caliper measurement.

      I went back to a moderate, paleo-ish diet. My vascularity returned immediately, and I felt so much better!

      Then I transitioned to eating high-fat, very-low-carb. I experienced the typical quick initial weight loss (from glycogen and associated water, likely) and energy loss, but after 2-3 weeks my energy stabilized. Over five weeks I lost only five lbs, and while I lost 5mm in caliper, mostly on my waist, my waist circumference didn’t change. Perplexing! I also suffered from diarrhea and muscle cramps.

      On the plus-side, I had few food cravings – mostly I fantasized about variety. I added intermittent-fasting, and while I found the program very sating, my BF% became stable – as I’d mentioned, I’d like to lose about 15lb.

      After transitioning thru a more-varied , higher-carb few days, I’ve started another potato diet, this time w/ intermittent fasting (no breakfast). I’m finding IF VERY difficult to do w/o dietary fat. I’m eating potatoes, greens, steamed broccoli, and had a few steamed carrots last night. On Day 1 I gained 1 1/2lb! On Day 2, I starved myself until dinner and was rewarded w/ almost 2mm total skin caliper loss. Yesterday ( Day 3), I couldn’t last past noon – I had to eat those taters! – and (breaking all the rules!) went for an hour-long mountain bike ride before dinner. Today, I find my caliper readings went UP slightly. Net change, over three days: 1 1/2 lb, no change in waist, 1mm total skin caliper loss. And I’m STARVING!

      I will update at the finale, arm function allowing, and assuming I’m not dis-membered by then. (Is a word, yes?)

      Full disclosure: I have several (sugar-free) cocktails, or glasses of wine, most every night, under every dietary paradigm – I’m quite sure I would elicit better results without self-treating the aching, gnawing angst that haunts my soul.

      • Brad W says:

        FB, I think a key issue is within your disclosure. Especially if you have been ending your days with multiple cocktails for a long time.

        Your family history of MS and your current neurological issues are concerning. I wonder if you don’t have B12 issues in your family, which might indeed be compounded by switching to nothing but potatoes. B12 insufficiency can cause many of the issues you describe, and is often misdiagnosed by doctors as MS. Watch this video Diagnosing and Treating Vitamin B12 Deficiency, then read this blog post & the comments for more info about how dietary folate (it’s added to EVERYTHING) can mask underlying B12 deficiency, with catastrophic results.)

        Petro is a very low carb dieter himself, but he knows enough biochemistry to understand why a potato-only diet is so effective. He explains why here and in an older post here.

        He also explains why a potato-only diet might be very risky in someone with liver disease (diagnosed or not.)

        Good luck.

      • admin says:

        Actually there is another explanation that’s far more simple and yet none of the high fat diet people seen to see it, because they are too focused on high glycemic food and labeling foods as “protein carbs and fat.”

        I’ll get to it later in this blog, but none of that is necessary to explain the results. It’s interesting to see just how much diagnosis bias is out there.

        http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_ms.html

        http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/050812tasic.html

        http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/jan/ms.htm

        Dr john Mcdougall funded this $750,000 study at Oregon University on MS. Results are in preparation and it appears they’ve been as expected. I met a couple of former “MS” papers at his advanced study weekends along with some other incredible researchers. Dr Walter Kempner began successfully treating diabetes with Rice in 1939.

        This isn’t new, it works just like it has with Jason and many others. I’m doing similar work now with an implant.

        It’s not that difficult to understand if one puts aside Nutritionism and reductionism. It’s well understood, bud sadly doesn’t drive medicine or supplement sales.

        I opened with the first few paragraphs for a reason. Craving is not a sign of nutrition. It’s a term of addiction.

        For the record I’m not a promoter of a “potato diet” I use it very specifically. I just put it out there for fun and its been that. People can’t lose weight on their diet of choice.

        I’ve never had that problem on a nutritarian diet. It always works.

        Ray.

      • Feral Boy says:

        Brad W, thank you for the links. (This may be presumptuous, but I hope your gesture means you no longer want me deleted.) The video is an hour long, so it may take me a while to get to it.

        I drink too much! It’s true. It started out as a way to fall asleep in spite of pain and anxiety, but now it’s mostly habit. I’ve been experimenting with tryptophan, GABA, valerian root, ashwagandha, and phosphatidylserine in recent weeks, but my old standbys are Ambien and alcohol.

        Which reminds me: in spite of almost dying, I experienced two great benefits during my first potato diet. 1) My sleep quality improved; and 2) my body aches subsided, both considerably. (My exercise for the last two years has been primarily strength training, usually 3-5 rep sets w/ a 5 reps-to-failure weight. It’s a lot of strain on my connective tissue. Also, I’ve a bad lower back, and two torn up shoulder joints, plus rotator cuff tears, from sports-related shenanigans. I am in nearly-constant pain from training and playing.) In fact, these two things, more than weight loss, inspired me to try it again.

        Listen to me, going on-and-on about myself.

        I love Petro’s blog! I’ve only had time to read a handful of his posts, and the Proton series has been on my short list of things-to-read for weeks. I will try to get to it very soon. His posts are VERY dense, and each one is a rabbit-hole of links, as I’m sure you’ll agree. I read his original (I think it was, anyway) explanation for the potato diet success, but found its logic lacking. I’ll have to give it another read. Also, I think someone mentioned it in the comments on Ray’s blog, and Ray dismissed the theory, hinting the success had something to do with termites. (Did that really happen, or was I drunk?) So I’ve been waiting for Ray’s explanation to be revealed. And waiting…

        Again, thank you for the links – I will research this B12 thing. Also, it’s interesting you mention liver function, because… oh, there I go again. Let’s not dwell on me. (Maybe another time.) I’m really interested in how people make this potato diet livable, and so is Anna!

      • admin says:

        There is no potato diet here. At least none I’m recommending. I’ve been clear I think nutritarian is the closest to optimal I’ve come. Starch does have a role, but it’s not at the foundation for a lot of reasons. It can be used and Mcdougall does it well.

        I started the two week starch hack to make a point. It’s useful for other things as well, but I’ll get into that at some other time.

        Ray

      • Feral Boy says:

        In re:

        “http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_ms.html
        http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/050812tasic.html
        http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/jan/ms.htm

        MORE HOMEWORK? OVER SUMMER VACATION? Aww, jeez…

        Thanks, Ray. I’ll check them out.
        (Please don’t label me a “high fat person” – I’m TRYING to lose weight.)

      • admin says:

        Honestly, I hope you and your family take a look. Johns been dedicate to this for a long time. He’s driven by healthcare, not ideology and I’ve spoken with several success cases.

        It’s probably not the story that is popular, but I am beginning to see some things repeated.

        You can lose weight. You can keep it off. I was up and down until I got on my current path and now up has only been deliberate to do down self experiments.

        I hope it helps.

        Here’s an (older) video on the same subject:

        http://www.drmcdougall.com/video/diet_ms.html

        Don’t analyze it. Try it. Diagnosis bias has tripped up even the smartest.

        Ray

      • Abstaining from fat (or food completely) for 2 weeks likely won’t cause a stroke, heart attack, MS, or any other life threatening disease in an otherwise healthy person. Ray doesn’t recommend unsupervised water fasts and in fact people seem to do much better than fasting with similar weight loss. The symptoms you describe sound much more like a panic attack.

        It’s possible your fat withdrawal amplified your anxiety and that manifests in all sorts of physical symptoms. I sympathize.

      • Feral Boy says:

        Jason, thank you.
        HOWEVER…
        I’m starting to think you intentionally misread my comments; I never said any of those things, or implied any causality!

        As regards the panic attack hypothesis: I did have a single panic attack about a dozen years ago; these episodes were quite different. Having said that, I will keep the idea in mind should I experience another one. Perhaps it will help me cypher what is going on. Thanks.

      • Anna Korenina says:

        Feral Boy, thanks for sharing, I definitely second b-12 recommendations and the video, although it is long and could have been easily cut in 1/2, actually watching the first 1/2 is probably sufficient.

        And may be taking some time off from the gym would be good too 🙂 Sleep issues could be possibly related to high cortisol from overtraining? Just a thought, no need to reply, I know most people don’t want to hear about cutting their favorite activities 🙂

        And as for cramps on low-carb, I assume you took potassium and magnesium and it didn’t help?

      • Feral Boy says:

        1) My cortisol is high at night, but probably not due to overtraining. I’m currently treating w/ phosphatidylserine to blunt it. I suspect adrenaline surges may be causing sleep issues, and have been taking GABA and recently started ashwagandha to take the edge off.
        2) I’m taking time off from lifting heavy things while I do this potato diet. And no, I’m not happy about losing any of my well-earned physical prowess.
        3) Cramps/diarrhea are a bit like chicken/egg. I’ve tried using magnesium, potassium, sodium, and calcium to alleviate the muscle cramps brought on by low-carb, but was rewarded with diarrhea, which likely exacerbates muscle cramps via dehydration/electrolyte loss. I’m still working on it.

    • wayne fearn says:

      Hi
      Had great results both times.

      First time I craved salt.of all things.

      Second time I cut out all added salt and just ate potatoes. Did have some red wine but recieved a swift chastisement from Ray. But nothing in the form of.cravings. my blood pressure dropped about 10-15 points either side of the / and my pulse hovers around 50 bps anyhow so no changes there really.

      Both times lost about 13 lbs I think. Ray has all my details of the second time.

      I eat predominantly veggie with some fish a few times a month anyway but I was amazed how much extra load I was carrying and even more amazed I lost again the second time.
      It wont kill you and if it does.you wont be able.to post anyhow.

      Other scare stories are very very few and far between and ray walks you through it in his unique way.

      • “The body can store vitamin B12 for years in the liver.”

        http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002403.htm

        You’re not going to suffer a B12 deficiency from any 2 week diet.

      • Feral Boy says:

        And a car can store gasoline in its tank for years, but all it takes is one too many trips to the liquor store and you’re out!

      • Brad W says:

        Jason, watch the video.

        The pubmed insta-googling to shut down a discussion adds heat, not light.

      • admin says:

        Brad.

        This is real and not the acute issue that seemed implied by the idea that 2 weeks of starch might cause it.

        We’ve know this for 40 years and physicians are trained to check for it. It shows how incompetent some doctors are. B12 is trivial to manage in diet.

        Thanks for posting. Sad that its come to this. So avoidable.

        Ray.

      • I’m not trying to shut down a discussion, but I am trying to get you guys to adopt a less superstitious approach to problem solving. Assuming extreme nutrition disease happens in a few weeks is evidence you’re missing some pretty key (and simple) information.

        You’re not going to suffer pernicious anemia after two weeks of ANY diet.

      • Feral Boy says:

        Jason, I just watched the video. It’s pretty good. (Thanks, again, Brad W. You really hit the nail on the head – I have many of those symptoms!)

        I think Brad’s point – and the point of the video – is that many people have a B12 deficiency, and this may be due to genetics, diet, disease, etc.

        I’ve always supplemented with multi-vitamins, so I find it difficult to believe that is one of my problems, but I like thought experiments: let’s assume I had a level of deficiency that barely allowed me to function, because of poor absorption, alcohol abuse, shoddy diet. My “B12 tank” is nearly empty. Suddenly, I change my diet to one in which there is no B12 at all coming in – say, a potato-based diet. My formerly limited supply dwindles to nothing, and I pass the tipping point from barely-surviving to unable-to-function. My myelin sheathes decay just enough so that my motor nerves short circuit, I lose strength, and the deficiency becomes apparent.

        I didn’t start with a full tank. I was already running on fumes.

        I don’t think this is superstitious problem-solving.

      • Well, that doesn’t happen in a week or two. And, if you’ve got a B12 disorder you should be on supplementation already.

        If you’ve developed symptoms of pernicious anemia, food sourced B12 won’t likely be adequate. My point is a few weeks of potatoes isn’t going to do that.

        I’m no doctor. Go ask one. Have him test your B12 while you’re at it. Given the symptoms you’ve discussed, it sounds like you should be working with a talented internist regardless.

      • Brad W says:

        Hi, Ray,

        I never thought that 2 weeks of the potato diet could cause catastrophic B12 deficiency. I’ve done several days on it with no effect other than startling weight loss and a feeling of well-being.

        And thanks, Jason, for your noble efforts to cure me of the superstition you imagine me to have. The only superstition here is your fantasy that you know what I’m thinking when there was nothing of the kind in my comment. It must be a pleasant superstition for you, reinforcing your fantasy of your fierce intellect and overarching wisdom against the foolish hordes.

        Here is what was behind my comment (which I recognize is itself a superstition and a projection): that Feral Boy is in great danger. So I couldn’t feel good about myself unless I pointed him to that video and the issue of pervasive folic acid supplementation in food blinding physicians to masked B12 deficiency — which DOES NOT MEAN THAT I THINK TWO WEEKS OF TATERS PARALYZES HEALTHY PEOPLE, JASON.

        My layperson’s guess is that Feral Boy is a fifty-something, possibly diabetic long-term alcoholic with advanced liver disease and genetics that already make him vulnerable to nerve damage. My theory is that he might be catastrophically low in B12 and on the edge of a neurological catastrophe, yet ASYMPTOMATIC FOR THE MOMENT. Along these lines, my superstition was that there was something about the potatoes (loss of B12 from meat? Something in the metabolic pathways Petro Dobromylskyj describes that’s depleting the minimal B12 he had left? Dunno, beyond my pay grade) that was pushing him over some neurological threshold and surfacing the B12 problem…which he was then blaming on KILLER TATERS.

        I didn’t share this in my comment, as I know it’s just armchair theorizing. (Though I suppose I could have dressed it up with a PubMed cite; that cows some people and beats constructing an actual argument.)

        So yeah, I think Feral Boy is a piece of work, and it particularly pisses me off that he’s hassling Ray, who has better things to do than be trolled on this amazing forum. But that doesn’t mean that I’m not going to throw a few links at Feral Boy that I think could keep him out of a wheelchair.

        THAT DOESN’T MEAN I THINK POTATOES ARE EVIL MURDEROUS KILLERS, JASON. So save me the victory lap.

      • Anna Korenina says:

        wayne fearn, thanks for you comments. What happens after the diet? Do you go back to your normal eating or do you continue eating the same “diet” way? I guess I’m a bit confused on the issue – is it a permanent dietary change or just a few weeks of a diet?

        thanks.

    • Slow Sure says:

      @AnnaK

      I ate potatoes for 5 days and then potatoes or rice for another 23 (so, 28 consecutive days). I also had a few meals of a small quantity of idli (steamed fermented rice dumpling – no other additions).

      I ate the potatoes completely plain, or with salt and pepper or a small quantity of mustard/fat-free tomato ketchup. I mostly ate the rice in the form of congee (rice soup/gruel), prepared plain and then with a little fat-free stock powder added or salt when consuming it.

      It was quite easy to ask to go to an Indian or Chinese restaurant when going on in a group and request plain rice as part of the spread of dishes for the table: I then ate just the rice. In South Indian restaurants, I also had the option of requesting idli if they offered a plain fermented rice batter rather than the usual fermented rice and lentil batter.

      I had 2 episodes of GI upset, both of which were very unpleasant (after the first one, I introduced rice because I didn’t think I’d be able to continue otherwise).

      I lost approx. 10lbs which I haven’t regained (I ate the potatoes during March). My appetite was considerably reduced after a few days and it hasn’t increased much since. I adore potato and rice and would have thought that I could consume both in vast quantities: it turns out that in the absence of added fat or other attractive flavourings, I can’t eat either in substantial quantities.

      • admin says:

        …and a reason so many children are malnourished on them. Contrary to popular belief it’s not lack of “protein,” but a lack of calories.

        Check the label on the stock – fat free only refers to weight. Look at the list of ingredients to verify. I suspect everyone here knows the US label scam that they report % by weight and not per calorie (its calories, not weight that are your daily limit).

        Ray

      • Slow Sure says:

        I made the stock and dehydrated it for flavour or used a frozen one (also made by me): they were as fat-free as plausible.. I’m not in the US although agreed on food labels.

      • admin says:

        I’m working on vegetable stock now…Tired of buying it. Summer is here and it’s great to have vegetables EVERYWHERE. Another 10 days or so and I am going to eat a LOT of them.

        Ray

      • Ian S says:

        I started my own ‘potato’ (yams actually) experiment recently. On the third day, while attempting to play my usual weekly basketball game, I experienced weakness, extraordinary sweating and fatigue, and disorientation. I was not expecting it, as I thought I had eaten a lot that day.

        Not being a calorie counter, I had never bothered checking how much I was eating. So the next day, I looked it up on FitDay (517 calories /lb for boiled yams) and then measured out the 5-6 lbs of yams I needed per day if I was going to be calorie neutral. Let’s just say I was very, very surprised at how many yams one can eat and still be in an energy deficit 🙂

        So now my plan is to peel my 20 yams every morning, boil them, mash them and spice them, making sure I finish the lot every day. I will also add in a bit of other nutrient-dense foods, as I am not interested in weight loss. As far as I can tell, the objective here is to go nutrient dense (a la Fuhrman) and avoid fat. I’m not sure if condiment level of nuts, avocado, coconut need to be scrupulously avoided – Ray?

        I believe there is an important piece in the comments of one of Ray’s earlier post, where he says:

        “There’s no such thing as “lean meat.” see meat as a “desert” and you’re closer to the truth.

        All together is THE problem. Don’t do it. Pick a source of fuel – don’t eat both.

        I’ll comment more later on excess nutrients.

        Ray”

        (http://hypothermics.com/2012/06/no-guts-no-glory-part-2/#comment-1210)

        So I’m going with that as the dietary basis: Nutrient dense. Heavy on the starch if I don’t want to lose weight, and don’t mix starch and fat. I do not know how much fat from nuts/avocado/coconut or occasional seafood is ‘too much’.

        My interest in all of this is to improve my microbiome for health reasons.

      • admin says:

        You shouldn’t be exercising at that low of calorie. There’s no way you’ll keep up and THAT’S how you lose lean mass – deliberately tearing it down in the presence of any low calorie regime.

        Ray.

      • admin says:

        Ian

        Don’t confuse this potato experiment – which you’ve now proven to yourself – with a nutritarian diet. Starches are okay to use to make up calories, but you should get enough from nuts and sees. Joel Fuhrman has a number of good reasons to limit starch (e.g. Arsenic in rice), but he knows that they aren’t significantly turned into fat as widely believed.

        Don’t stay on the starch-only diet and consider switching out to beans and squash or sweet potatoes. Each day you should get greens, beans, onions, mushrooms, berries and seeds. His fat % comes out to about 20% or so and one can’t lose weight as rapidly. So if you scaled up your food to play, you won’t lose. Don’t mix the nuts and seeds and starch – pick one for the meal (exception – low calorie squash can be eaten with a nut-butter dressing).

        For SURE on the 3-4 day of this low calorie regime of starch you will feel lousy – I go into all of this in my coaching program that many have been through. Hopefully I can get it open sol. To a wider group.

        My reason for putting it out there is the belief that somehow “carbs” are our big problem when in fact anything that label really applies too, one shouldn’t eat in the first place. Ditto for “protein” and “fat.”

        Ray

      • Anna Korenina says:

        Slow Sure, thanks for sharing your experience. How long has it been since your weight loss? I’m concerned that after people go off the “diet” they will regain weight. And I’m still confused what to do after the “diet”, can you go back to eating normal food, or do you have to stick with some sort of post diet plan?

        thanks!

      • admin says:

        This is normal food. You don’t go back to a typical western diet or you will gain it back again. Buy eat to live or super immunity. Follow it for 6 months and then make a decision.

        How much do you have to lose?

        Ray

  49. The potato thing raises its head a lot. I people will chastise Ray’s advocation of eating [only potatoes] in 20 years. Potatoes will be to Ray what meat and cheese were to Atkins: something neither man actually advocated.

    Ray has never told anyone (as far as I know) to eat nothing but potatoes as a diet plan. He’s suggested trying it out for a week or two to see what happens. The point is to show you that you [can] be liberated from food addiction, and you [can] lose weight eating loads of “carbs.”

    I’ve lost a lot of weight eating rice, beans, cabbage, corn, broccoli, onions, berries, leeks, squash, and greens of all shapes and sizes. And, yes, I still eat quite a few potatoes. But, I didn’t lose [that much weight] on the “potato diet.” I just learned to curve my fat addict behavior using potatoes for a few weeks. And, for that short introduction to a better food relationship, I am very thankful to Ray.

    • Anna Korenina says:

      Jason, thank you for your comments. I think cutting out carbs did exactly the same thing for me – a better food relationship 🙂

      I’d think that a few weeks of anything, even starving, shouldn’t cause any major health issues in a healthy person. The problem is that many people are not healthy to begin with, so some people may experience worse then normal reaction to an abrupt way of trying to drastically shift their metabolism/digestion/whatever you want to call it.

      As for Ray and the potato thing, the trouble is that he has never revealed his diet plan completely, so we are left with trying to put together a diet from many random comments and potatoes come up very often.

  50. Anna Korenina says:

    Ray, I really don’t want to stir up trouble, but it’s hard to discuss things without knowing what they are. So, does Dr. Fuhrman’s definition make sense to you:

    Simply put, a Nutritarian diet is a way of eating which bases food choices on maximizing the micronutrients per calorie. A Nutritarian diet is designed with food that has powerful disease-protecting and therapeutic effects and delivers a broad array of micronutrients via a wide spectrum of food choices. It is not sufficient to merely avoid fats, consume foods with a low glycemic index, lower the intake of animal products, or eat a diet of mostly raw foods. A truly healthful Nutritarian diet must be micronutrient rich and the micronutrient richness must be adjusted to meet individual needs. The foods with the highest micronutrient per calorie scores are green vegetables, colorful vegetables, and fresh fruits. For optimal health and to combat disease, it is necessary to consume enough of these foods that deliver the highest concentration of nutrients.

    And if yes, could we just eat vitamin pills with water – zero calories. It’s not only what you eat, but what you absorb that counts… but even though, I’d think salmon caviar or beef liver beats brocoli and kale: http://chriskresser.com/natures-most-potent-superfood
    And what about the missing b-12 in nutritarian diet, why not eat liver, why supplement if the point is nutrition?

    • admin says:

      Yes. That fits the definition. If you think those diets work – then try them. I’ve failed to have lasting success on any of them and I tried many over the last 25 years.

      Excess nutrients in the numerator don’t allow for excess calories in the denominator. H = N/C for adequate nutrients not wild excesses. In three years I’ve never had a b12 deficiency.

      People worry about all of this, because it’s planted into their heads to sell more supplements. Deficiency happens on poor diets – meat or no meat. You can take a multivitamin if you want, I would suggest you don’t take one with folic acid as its not equivalent to folate. 35% increase in colorectal cancer in men. Double the risk of prostate cancer. Increase in breast cancer of 20-30%.

      As for vitamin A, there’s no reason to supplement with it as your body is perfectly capable of converting beta carotene in food to vitamin A. Supplementation with vitamin A is toxic to the liver and its a significant risk for cancer (see the cochrane review).

      Ray

      • Anna Korenina says:

        Ray, thanks for your answer, but even dr. Fuhrman recommends supplementing with b-12 while mistaking stating that it’s only produced by microorganisms:
        Vitamin B12 is unique in that it is made only by microorganisms. Because our produce is washed and often transported far before we eat it (soil contains B12-producing microorganisms), most of us are unable to get sufficient B12 from plant foods alone. B12 deficiency is common, especially in vegans who don’t supplement and in the elderly – our ability to absorb B12 decreases with age, and about 20% of adults over the age of 60 are either insufficient or deficient in vitamin B12.5 Supplementation with vitamin B12 is likely important for most people, and absolutely required for most vegans to achieve sufficient B12 levels.

        I understand that you didn’t have good experience with Low Carb/High Fat diet and that Low Fat/High Nutrients works for you. Many people had the opposite experience, so that only underscores the importance of N=1 for weight loss.

        I also realize that you are not very interested in debating the nutritional aspect of your experiments, you just trust the expertise of dr. Fuhman that whole food “nutrarian” diet will keep you thin and healthy. I agree with the thin part, not so much with the healthy part. I took a look at dr. Fuhman site and the following statements, just to name a few, diminish his credibility in my eyes:
        “Fish consumption in women has been linked to higher rates of breast cancer ”
        and “There is a direct correlation between cholesterol level and heart attack risk at total cholesterol levels above 150 mg/dl”
        and “Vitamin B12 is unique in that it is made only by microorganisms. ”

        But I do realize that this is your blog and that you just wants to focus on CT and weight loss and not debate the validity of the outdated cholesterol theory or the danger of eating fish, so I’m not going to pursue further conversation on the subject of the diet.

        thank you for your time, I now better understand where you are coming from.

      • admin says:

        You attributed many words to me that I’ve not said and then attacked me on it. No, I don’t want to “debate.” I’ve spent the last four years – full time – researching and experimenting. I’ve been fortunate enough to work with experts at leading academic research institutions across the US. I don’t “follow people” as I’ve been a disruptive innovator my whole career.

        That I come to similar conclusions is not blindly following. I don’t have the legal right to give out “nutritional or medical advice” and I don’t. Instead I rely on those that closely match what I’ve also concluded and recommend them.

        I don’t care to change your opinion, I’m impacting lives. If you want to do it the another way, please go ahead. I’ve helped hundreds of people and many directly.

        If showing up here and engaging me merely to say “I’m wrong” is your goal, that’s okay too. Links to journal articles from people that have never published along with non-cogent, endless lists of out of context facts is not intellectual debate. I’ve seen what goes on elsewhere and it’s a circus of a bunch of self-licking ice cream comes.

        I fully understand what N = 1 is – I have a long record of peer review publications and upcoming in this field as well. Everyone throws that term around as if it proves/disproves something. As I said. We can hit your finger with a hammer and you can stop or increase it to an N = 8 to be sure it’s going to hurt.

        One thing people don’t realize is that When N = 1 experiments get the same results of N = many hundreds over the last 150 years, they are valid. I do have a new synthesis of food – and that will come in the form of a publication, not blog.

        On the other hand, I’ve got a lot of information that’s backed by over a century of data – people are simply misinterpreting, because they’ve become enamored with “nutritionism.” My goal is to help the people that hang to be helped. That’s not everyone and I’m okay with that. If being popular was my goal, this is not the path I would have chosen.

        And for the record I never said not to supplement with B12. I said I had no problem in 3 years and there’s no reason to eat the organ of another animal to solve the problem. I’ve never mentioned cholesterol but the data is clear on fat – just go back once again and read No Guts No Glory from a year ago. This last year even more has piled on that data. All of it points to the same issue of microbiome (gram negative) mediation of our diet.

        I’ve looked, and perhaps you can help me find, any microbiome papers that suggest increased lipids form favorable microbiome. There are 25+ I have that say the opposite.

        My choice to eat is about optimizing as much I can – weight loss is trivial at this point. I can repeatable lose .6-.8 lb/day of Fat and anyone can do it. You’re right that people are addicted to sugar, salt and fat at different levels and so not unlike those who can never kick alcohol or heroin, I’m sure they have a lot of problems.

        If you want to do the self-experiment, go for it and report back. We all want you to succeed. If you’ve given Joel Furhman’s or John Mcdougall’s program a try, they are both good men that have personally treated in private practice 10s of thousands (read N = Many) and haven’t found these mystery people that it doesn’t work for. They consistently reverse high cholesterol, blood pressure, T2DM along with a host of autoimmune issues (MS among them).

        For now, I’ve got the ~ 60 that have gone through my program paleos and vegans alike and of the ones I’ve personally coached, there’s been very few dropped out or failed.

        As for the three or four commenters that don’t like the fact that I think it’s irresponsible to give out advice when they themselves aren’t even healthy is not a big concern compared to the thousands that think this site is helpful and original. I’ll have my food site up soon and everyone there will be there because they want to learn and I’ve got a great team to teach.

        If anyone has a preferred way to eat – join dosIQ.com, eat, document, test and post the results. New tools are in the works.

        Hope that helps.

        Ray

  51. Feral Boy says:

    “Feral Boy is a fifty-something, possibly diabetic long-term alcoholic with advanced liver disease and genetics that already make him vulnerable to nerve damage.”

    Gosh, is that with or without the rose-colored glasses on?.

    “I think Feral Boy is a piece of work, and it particularly pisses me off that he’s hassling Ray”.

    There are extraordinary claims being made here, claims that fly in the face of established science and personal experience. I think we owe it to ourselves, and future bio-hackers, and Ray, to pause for a moment and evaluate the data before blindly accepting these claims and then moving on.

    I’ve already pointed out some issues with this experiment, and I could point out more, but I’m not here to bash Ray! With his equipment and contacts and passion, he is poised to make a valuable contribution to bio-hacking. Let’s see if he does. But in the mean time, we’re not doing anyone any good with a kid gloves treatment of proclamations that appear to be exaggeration or overly simplified or generalized. This will only lead to a shaky foundation for future theories to rest on.

    In an earlier comment, Jason mentioned a number of diet myths – stuff that we’ve probably seen on the cover of Women’s Weekly, The National Enquirer, and other pulp from the supermarket checkout lane. He, or others like him, took these myths as truisms, but putting them into practice failed to lead to positive results and now they’re angry about being misled. I worry that they are putting themselves in the same danger here.

    One example from his list: “If you eat fat, you’ll burn more fat.” Is that true? I would never hawk it, but I would say that there is a kernel of truth within it: I think it’s well-established that the liver produces ketones in response to a low-carb, low-protein, high-fat diet. I think it’s well-established that ketones suppress appetite. Suppressed appetite, along with smart food choices, may lead to reduced caloric-intake. I think that it’s well-accepted that reducing caloric intake, all other things being equal, will lead to less weight-gain or increased fat-loss. So, yeah, some guy with no diet or physiology background, who gets paid by the word and never looks back, might write an article for the Sunday newspaper supplement that obscenely oversimplifies the above logical chain by proclaiming “New Study Shows Fat Burns Fat!” If you blindly accept that kind of thing, without researching the underlying premise, I have little sympathy when you get burned by it.

    I’m here to help, not to hassle.

    • Brad W says:

      FB, I doubt anyone is reading your comments any more.

      But I’ll say this: if you spent as much time tending to your own medical issues as you did to trolling here, you might still be alive in five years.

  52. brian braith says:

    Hey comment team. Just a random side point. I wanted everyone to wish me luck. I may very well be on season 5 shark tank on the television haha. just got a call yesterday from the network to do some more paper work. I’ve passed all the other stages, video submission etc. and naturally, I’d be pitching a potentially epic (or epic fail) bio hack product service. I’m open to any angels though, on TV or not 🙂 Incidentally, I had a really good giggle yesterday. I weighed in at 166 yesterday. I’m 30, and effectively thats my weight when I was 19 and in fire fighting school. I’m as fit now as last year (if not more-OK more haha) when I was training like a viking to get down in the army ROTC program. But I’m doing it cleverly, instead of severely. I even built a home made VASPER type contraption at my home gym awhile back. But, man, its so cool being alive in this era. H+ we should arrange a field trip to Antarctica, go around shirtless and freak all the scientists (and penguins) out…

  53. Anna Korenina says:

    Ray, I’m replying here because your last comment didn’t have a reply button…

    First, I apologize if my comments sounded as a personal attack, they weren’t ment to be. It is because I appreciate your knowledge, experience and biohacking, I’m commenting here in hopes to learn more and questioning is one of the best ways to learn IMHO.

    Second, I’m trying to do my best to understand your position and dietary advice and misinterpret less, but it is often hard to read between the lines of the multitude of comments and some assumptions will eventually have to be made. I’m not the only one who’s come to the conclusion that you recommend a vegan diet, so I’m glad to hear that that is not the case and some animal food is ok.

    Thirdly, I do not invalidate your results, your knowledge and the fact that you’ve helped many people. My n=1 comment was only ment to say that some people can achieve the same results you did and cure many ills on LC/HF diet and your results don’t invalidate theirs and visa versa.

    As for B-12, my point was not whether to supplement it or not, but this – how can the diet be optimal if it’s missing one of the main nutrients that you need to supplement, may be not now, but potentially in the future? Should’t the perfect diet contain it already? But I see that now you are saying that you have no problem with animal liver, but the question is still, why not recommend eating liver in a first place because it is also nutrient dense real whole food? Perhaps you did recommend it and I’m simply not aware of it.

    I will read your no-guts-no-glory again, but I agree that gut symbiosis and microbiota are very important and our diet affects our gut bacteria, but more is not always better. And I agree with you “it might be more wise to eat food that feed the gut first”, but how do we know what it wants? I’d go with evolution, as you said: “bacteria … have a wide range of nutritional needs and evolutionary preference.” Veganism was practically non-existant in our latest and very long evolutionary period, so we can assume our gut bacteria would want to eat what they are used to, meat, fat, fish, some plants, some potatoes, etc. Just because eating only plant matter produces more gut bacteria, doesn’t mean it’s optimal. So I’m sure I’ve missed something or misinterpreted something and cholesterol is not to blame, so what’s wrong with fat?

    And finally I’m also very open minded and trying to learn, so I’m merely trying to understand why, weight loss aside, “mostly” vegan diet is superior/healthier/more optimal for humans then our evolutionary diet of mostly Meat/Fish and some plants?

    Just to repete, my goal is not to say that “you are wrong”, I’m really not trying to prove anything or distract you from your goal of helping people, which is admirable, but I don’t need to lose any weight, I’m merely trying to stay healthy, so I’m trying to find the optimal way to do so, just like you.

    • brian braith says:

      LC/HF = HC/LF. Energy wise at a certain point. They’re both energy sources, and after an adaptation period, most folks respond similarly whether you replace one energy source for the other fat loss wise. But we’re sidestepping the vital point of nutrient density thats lacking in that aforementioned formula. There energy aplenty, comparatively bankrupt in micronutrients. its like E=mc? what was that last bit… Although, I work in mental health. I know we prescribe ketogenic diets as an adjunct or standalone to drugs like depakote used in affect (mood disorders). They both have a strong anti-epileptic effect in the nervous system. A high C diet as far as I know isn’t as interchangeable to that end. For people like my grand dad however. I personally have had him on a higher fat diet at least recently because its more realistic for his ancient ways at least right now, to have some coconut oil and kerry gold coffee in the morning vs anything really, cause he can be a thicky. I’m trying to give him some neuronal building blocks. But I think the plant based diet is the most sustainable, both metabolically, financially and environmentally. And for the record, I am NOT a vegan haha, I’m a foodie. Now wish me some luck on my above comment (reaching :))

      • brian braith says:

        Oh I also made liver and onions for grandpa and me last week. But then I also ate like a few pounds of zen blend so… haha

      • Brad W says:

        I wouldn’t put my grandfather on veggies. Not if I loved him.

        The “environment” will have to look after itself.

        It always has. 🙂

      • admin says:

        I wouldn’t use mental health prescribed diets as an authority – the US government’s diet for diabetes is diabetogenic. Here it’s a shame that we have 27 National Institutes For Health (NIHs) and not one for nutrition, which instead is spear-headed by the US Dept of Agriculture – an organization based on the production and selling of food – twinkies and kale alike. Many physicians are simply incompetent at dietary intervention and that should change.

        Here’s the issue with the “fuel equivalency” argument: our gut bacteria respond very differently to “fuels” and its not a simple “fat vs carbohydrate” alternative. We see very clearly that refined sugar and excess lipid cause issues.

        As well, I helped Michael Greger prepare this video:

        http://nutritionfacts.org/video/carnitine-choline-cancer-and-cholesterol-the-tmao-connection/

        on the choline/microbiome issue that’s finally shedding light on what’s happening in this complex feedback. It’s amazing work if one reads it as a collection – below the video is a tab with all the references. Note when you watch that a vegan fed 8 oz steak (e.g. sourcing animal food when occasionally needed in an evolutionary past) does not produce a TMA/TMAO response. He’s not built up the bacteria that feeds on excess choline in the diet – here another example of an essential nutrient that in excess causes issues.

        Others can argue environment, ethics, etc. There is no doubt in my mind that we ate animals in the past and there’s likely some level that can be safely eaten today. That’s not my issue.

        I did a one year self experiments – zero, nada, zilch on animal products – to see what would happen. I wanted problems. I ate a healthy diet and had I seen all these issues predicted by Nutritionism advocates, i’d have happily gone back to my old eating BFL style. In fact, I didn’t, learned to enjoy what I was eating, and now prefer it. If one grew up sucking on grubs and enjoyed this, it’s not likely they’d like switching to cicadas buzzing in their mouth and the crunchy exoskeleton in a mere 12 weeks. Chomp on them long enough and perhaps a fondness arises as the squirt of their abdomen quiets them down. It would probably take longer than a year, but eventually the cicada vs juicy grub debate would ensue. People would begin to debate it ad nausem.

        People like the results and how they feel, once they get past the addictive chains. There are just as many vegans loading up on unhealthy refined grain/oil/sugar as there are SAD people that do that and add excess calorie and fat from animal products.

        I don’t make either side very happy. Oh well. I can still help a lot of people.

        Ray

      • Anna Korenina says:

        Ray and anybody else who is interested, here is another side of the story of TMAO which is much more compelling from my perspective, but it’s not as short and pretty because it’s not a video:
        http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2013/04/10/does-carnitine-from-red-meat-contribute-to-heart-disease-through-intestinal-bacterial-metabolism-to-tmao/

        Ray, we have much more in common, I agree that gut flora is very important, but the video above is not enough evidence to show that fat/meat is the problem.
        – As you said, microbiota is very complex and feeding people antibiotics before studying them produces all sort of unintended consequences.
        -Besides, the link between TMAO and heart attacks is questionable too. Human studies on that had heavy confounding variables.
        – Halibut produces 107 times more TMAO then meat, and fish in general is much worse, so I’d expect fish eaters dropping off like flies, yet they do not.
        – It also possible that High Carb diet + protein is producing more TMAO then LC+ protein
        – It is also possible that excess protein is the problem, most people eat too much protein (another point we agree on, in your “diet” protein shouldn’t be an issue)
        – Another possibility, perhaps plasma carnitine is an inverse marker of vitamin C status (which is depleted by HC diet).
        – The balance of epidemiological evidence fails to show an association between fresh, unprocessed red meat and heart disease.

      • admin says:

        Anna.

        That blog predates the most conclusive work that came out April 25th in New England Journal of Medicine. One has to look at the whole picture and although the microbiome is complex, the range of bacteria and the associations has been the same.

        The blog is persuasive, not convincing as the entire premise is overlooked. It comes from the perspective of trying to look back and justify eating habits, not looking what the very clear NEJM results are.

        The video covers ALL the subject, not just part to obfuscate and persuade. As I said, take a look at the references is if that’s your thing. I don’t look at “carbohydrates + Protein” or otherwise because those words are pretty much meaningless as I’ve described elsewhere on this blog. There is good reason to believe that our biggest problem is organizing food in this way – it’s irrational.

        We all make our choices, but not very many studies that suggest increase in plant food is the cause of problems – outside of highly refined foodstuff that gets all the bad wrap.

        We agree on excess amino acid consumption. My collaborator has shown that Fructose, BCAA, alcohol, and trans-fat are the four big contributors. Chronic over nutrition is the problem (my opinion) and it leads to the easy implementation of a nutrient dense, calorically restricted diet – I’m not sure of any other way to put it together.

        Ray

      • Anna Korenina says:

        Brian, I agree – “LC/HF = HC/LF. Energy wise at a certain point.” But micronutrients, metabolic sustainability and more importantly bioavailability is the question.

    • admin says:

      My apologies. I should have written “one” not “you” on the wrong comment – I was referring to others just trolling. 3-4 in over 2 years is a good statistic. It’s always people obsessed with reductionist Nutritionism.

      What we know is that every organism tested, from yeast to mammals, responds to calorically restricted diet (15-30%) by longer life and less chronic disease. The other side is that energy “foodstuff” (e.g. Refined oil/sugar) have been stripped from the food package and aren’t really food. The real world is calorie scare – not the 6 meals a day I was taught to eat.

      So the challenge to overcome is our need for sufficient nutrient with minimum calorie. At the same time we don’t want to feed the microbiome excess simple sugar or refined fats. I’ll take it you’ll read No Guts No Glory (Part 1) & (Part 2) again – it’s not more is merrier, it’s that the correct bacteria distribution arises as a response to diet with the exception to other environmental factors, such as excessive antibiotic. They are what we eat and their waste products dump into our absorption organ. I know how to solve those equations for plant sourced (scarce) energy, but I’ve not been able to do it otherwise.

      Now for B12 and not an optimal diet. First note that people that have difficulties likely have absorption problems, not they lack sufficient access to the nutrient (many aren’t vegans or near vegans). Next, it’s possible that our increased focus on “sterile” has lead us to not come in contact, or harbor, the bacteria/fungi/algae that make B12. Remember that a small percentage of the population has b12 issues – regardless of what they eat. My point is one does not become B12 deficient in two weeks or even have to worry about it for a long time. There are so many B12 fortified products, you likely won’t have to supplement. IF your blood test comes up short, then it’s an easy fix.

      So pick one supplement, B12 – two if you want to throw DHA in there for safeguard – and eat the rest of your diet with nutrient dense/calorically poor plant food that contains what you need along with many photochemicals not found in animal product. The supplement industry at $28 or 60 or 100 billion depending on who you ask is not necessarily a source of “health” and the industry as a whole has a problem.

      Certainly there’s no need to repeat again the indispensable amino acid argument as we’ve not seen amino acid depletion in otherwise nourished people so long as the primary energy source isn’t refined oil and sugar foodstuff.

      Go above, hit my amazon store menu and buy Eat to Live and Super Immunity and read them both. They are well referenced if that’s your thing and it’s pretty easy to follow. I get credit on my amazon account and I’ll buy even more to read 🙂

      It’s not an ideology issue or even that I don’t enjoy it, but the evidence is clear if one removes “desire” out of the way. Just because we ate some way in a notional past, recent or distant, doesn’t mean we must do that or it’s optimal. We weren’t “evolved” to eat one thing – the process continues and what we’re finding is that the more calorically dense that diet is, the more sick we, and the animals we keep warm and fed (pets), become. I choose to focus on the energy balance side and while mild cold stress and activity are part of the equation, food, and our relationship with it, has become THE thermodynamic issue.

      Ray

      • Robert Burkhalter says:

        and try to remember when you’re choosing the bottled vitamins: if they can package it and it has a “shelf life”, it most likely contains something that kills bacteria. Your body will not thank you for this assault. And because it takes years to die from it, it will be difficult (if not impossible) to trace and prosecute.

      • Anna Korenina says:

        Ray, again, I think we agree more then we disagree:

        – Refined oils/sugars and processed foods are bad
        – calorically restricted diet done “correctly” most likely extend life span
        – 6 meals a day are too much
        – Excess calories are bad and energy balance is good
        – Amino acid depletion is very rare, excess protein is much more common and worse for you via mTor pathway
        – Gut bacteria is important and excessive antibiotics are very dangerous
        – increased focus on “sterile” could be a problem indeed
        – CT is great
        – Our taste buds do adjust to our diet
        – photochemical from veggies and fruit could be important
        – just because we ate something in our past doesn’t mean it’s optimal

        There are only a few things we differ on really:

        – I think the reason Caloric Restriction works is low insulin and protein restriction, which both can be attained on your diet as well as LC/HF/Moderate protein diet. So the point is not just to reduce calories, I’m sure you would agree that eating only sugar on Caloric Restriction diet is not going to work, there must be other mechanisms at play. There are many studies that show reducing carbs and protein leads to reduced insulin and MTOR and longer life span. And empirical evidence seems to confirm that – centenarians all have low insulin and blood sugar while most eat both carbs and animal proteins, although not in huge quantities.

        – I’m not advocating processed oil/fat, but natural/whole fats from dairy, avocados, beef, coconut and pork that our mictrobiota have gotten used to over time and I haven’t seen evidence yet that HF (not processed) diet is harmful to our bacteria – inuits, for example were just fine. There is a multitude of evidence where fat consumption improves brain function, as pointed above, just one example.

        – HF diet and energy balance are not mutually exclusive. HF diet allows one to control appetite just as effectively if not more then high plant diet while allowing for much more variety, satisfaction and fun, so energy balance is not an issue on it. In addition, HF diet allows one to do IF-intermittent fasting with ease to balance some occasional fun indulgence.

        – There is no credible evidence at all that HF diet is harmful if in energy balance and low carb/moderate protein state, if you know of any, please point it out. On the other hand there is credible evolutionary evidence in favor of HF diet and even though there could be better options, I rather take the already tested option just in case.

        – why worry about micronutrients and their digestibility and cancer if we know humans were doing just fine on meat/eggs/fish with no signes of prostate cancer – Weston Price work is great in this regard

        – meanwhile there are lots of studies that people have problems digesting certain nutrients from plants, you may say they have gut issue, I may say so what? how do we know which one of us has or doesn’t have an ability to covert carrots into proper vitamin A?

        – What about some yet undiscovered potential nutrients that you could be missing that’s potentially only available in animal products? As you said, biological systems are very complex and humans were eating animal proteins/fats all the time, so by switching to predominantly plant based diet we claim that we do understand that complexity fully, or are we are playing God in a way with our gut bacteria, our hormones and God knows what else?

        -I’m not saying plant food is a problem at all, but you are saying that fat is the problem. At the same time I understand your “case for ignoring “protein, carbohydrates and fat” when designing a meal” and eating real food, but what’s not real about grass-fed meat or pastured eggs or bone marrow? It’s way more real then broccoli!

        – So far ,if I understand you correctly, you have no problem with cholesterol and your main point was that our microbes don’t like HF diet, but most of these studies are done on HF/HC/HP diet or worse yet, rats. For example the only negative HF study I saw in your no-guts blog was done on mice. Mice are not exactly humans as far as their diet goes and their gut bacteria can function better on grains then ours. I’m not even sure what kind of fat they were eating? Are there any human studies that show HF diet (not corn oil diet) is harmful for our overall bacteria and not just reduces its amount?

        – But even if the only problem of HF diet is our microbes, which I don’t believe is the case, we can simply feed them RS-resistant starch to overcome that. Here a mice study that help them to solve this:
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22950602

      • admin says:

        Anna,

        – Refined oils/sugars and processed foods are bad
        – calorically restricted diet done “correctly” most likely extend life span
        – 6 meals a day are too much
        – Excess calories are bad and energy balance is good
        – Amino acid depletion is very rare, excess protein is much more common and worse for you via mTor pathway
        – Gut bacteria is important and excessive antibiotics are very dangerous
        – increased focus on “sterile” could be a problem indeed
        – CT is great
        – Our taste buds do adjust to our diet
        – photochemical from veggies and fruit could be important
        – just because we ate something in our past doesn’t mean it’s optimal

        Yes. we agree on all but one: photochemical from veggies and fruit absolutely ARE important. And the rest is so far out there, it’s not fit to debate it in this forum. I simply can’t take the time nor is there value in it, because there is so much you are leaving out and you aren’t even getting the basic idea I’ve presented about microbiome. We’ll disagree.

        Do you have weight problems? Is your cholesterol below 150? How about triglycerides? What can I help you with? I don’t know what you hope to get out of reading this blog and I have suggested you simply read those two books rather than me type them in here. There are other good things, but at least it’s a great place to start for anyone that like meaty technical presentation – Joel does a good job at that.

        If you want a complete look at this, and I would suggest you go through all of this, before you make recommendations here you can go to this video to start for an example:

        Weston Price Mystery X-Factor

        Further if you want to invest just a *little* time with an alternative to your hypothesis (in science we don’t get to dismiss things that oppose our view) then here is a fult-tilt retort (and only 5 hours long) to much of the fat-blogging world.

        Primitive Response (5 hours)

        I actually recommend you also go through the full primitive nutrition series:

        Primitive Nutrition (9 Hours)

        And if you just want to look at views opposed to Gary Taubes, you can go to:

        Nutrition Past and Future (16 hours).

        Don’t complain about the presenter’s voice, as a scientist we have to sit through MANY presentations that seem dry and boring – real life scientific meetings aren’t TEDtalks (not that there isn’t great value in TED, but not all great scientists are great presenters). Don’t dismiss him until you listen to the whole thing – or at least make it through Primitive Nutrition (9 hours). There are PLENTY of issues you should find disheartening if your intellectually honest about it.

        It’s often hard to look at opposing views, but I have not only watched all of these, but some more then once. The all quietly went up one by one and had very few views. I tuned in as they came. During the same period they were being put up, I was doing my own research. Take a look at the playlist and you’ll see an interesting trend – the first and last videos have high counts, but the middle – not so much. This is INFINITELY more enjoyable than what I do all day with stacks of paper (still can get through them without printing them out, but I’m trying). This is bubblegum all things being equal as he’s put an ENORMOUS amount of work into them. It’s respectable and if you take the amount of time to put up these posts here, then please take the time to look at all of these.

        As I have said, I feel privilege to have close friends that are leaders in areas of Anthropology, Endocrinology and Caloric Restriction at some of the most prestigious schools. Most of them are meat eaters, so don’t cry that they are on some vegan vendetta. They are perfectly willing to concede and actually support my work, which unfortunately is not as easy to get out there as pushing send on a wordpress blog or assembling an ebook. So for now that work is not available, but it takes issue with some very fundamental tenants of the idea behind “nutrition.”

        I’d like for you to TRY something new – to be open. I was and I still am. You see, I’ve lost weight with and without animal products. With the exception of A1C, Cholesterol, Blood Glucose and Triglycerides, I can do the weight loss either way. These biomarkers never came into check until I dropped them all together. Do I think 5% or so of your calories from animal products will kill you? No, but as you add them back the gnawing hunger comes back and It simply is not an issue for me now. I can go multiple days with no food with nothing more than a tight throat and a little extra salivation. I know true hunger and it’s not miserable at all. Everything else is addictive cravings – not that different from an alcoholic that just wants “a drink.”

        We likely have different goals. I have no idea what yours are and my whole life is out there along with my ideas.

        My belief is you won’t take the time to watch them – most don’t, but I simply can’t retype it all and I don’t really care about the other blogs. It’s great that you are so engaged and I suspect your health is in good order, or you wouldn’t be so certain.

        I could easily come up with “protein powders” and “pills” and had offers so many times from OEMs. “Ray, you don’t have to do a thing, I’ll take care of all of it and send you a check.” My answer is no, because health doesn’t come in a pill.

        I’m placing my bets squarely on what I am doing until I see compelling evidence to the contrary (like the blogger that gave me pause on small frequent meals) – I don’t care WHAT the answer is, but it has to make sense. So far, I am not compelled.

        off to do an late afternoon calorimetry measurement. Rode the bike and played frisbee with my son all afternoon and still haven’t eaten since yesterday. Will be interesting to see what happens and the glucose monitor has been AMAZING insight. They should sell these to EVERYONE. Combine the two and take real measurements with the food that is going in your mouth and it turns out things aren’t as advertised, but nothing yet contradicts the published literature.

        Ray

    • Robert Burkhalter says:

      Anna,
      In “We Want To Live” (2005 edition Amazon) the author suggests that toxins are the cause of most disease. Few folks embrace this idea because it raises the question “how do I eliminate them from my diet?”. He handles it marvelously. But it’s not for everyone.

      One of the fascinating facts (I’m starting to appreciate) is that everyone has their own set of experiences and beliefs. Because of it, everyone manages to get with what is right for themselves even if the experience looks like a wasted life to those around them. I believe the author nailed it by cutting directly to the chase. The weight (a symptom of underlying disease and lack of real nutrition) disappears normally over time. No exceptions.

      I hope this doesn’t come off as trollling, unscientific, or idealism. My desire is that we all get what is right for us, and that Ray publishes his book. I will buy it.

      Ray, is there a place where I can find classic high-lipid diet studies that show what they actually consumed ?

      Thanks for all you do.

  54. brian braith says:

    Had another whole body cryo therapy today with my grandparents and wife. We all hit our time goals. I stayed in the max 3 minutes. It was some dynamic fun. the wonderful german man that helped us today said, he’s only gone 2:40 max so far, but, since he saw me do the extra 40 seconds and felt emboldened haha. I also rode the hunger waves for over two hours to maximize lipolysis and autophagy, or something…. Had a nice meal and hydrated pre-therapy, and after 3 mins in the tube and I felt hunger like I had just done water polo drills in the pool for an hour. Cold torches calories, period. Loved it. I enjoy hunger now. Its got its own satisfaction. I know its ephemeral, like jonesing for a smoke when youre trying to quit. only lasts in reality for like 10-15 mins, roughly the same cycle as ghrelin I think. Fasting and various cold environments are your friend. Ray, can you add like one NASA story per comment string?

  55. brian braith says:

    hey guys im backpacking in yosemite all week. night time temp low 40s. would would do? sleeping bag? sheet? fleece sock? We’ll see…

  56. Anna Korenina says:

    Ray, thank you for your reply. I think we have the same goals – help more people lose weight, find an optimal diet for a human body and ultimately contribute to the progress in scientific knowledge. It is with these goals in mind, while being openminded, I was trying to have a conversation with you. Instead you seem to bring up lots of “arguments from authority”, which I clearly can’t win, in fact nobody can. And the author of the video you told me to watch seems to be a fan of “arguments from authority” too, while, of course being anonymous, which means he not only doesn’t have any credentials, he is afraid to reveal his identity. I find it a bit strange, he criticizes all of the prominent paleo bloggers/writers (taking lots of time to specifically name them one by one) for them not having PHDs, while hiding in the shadows. In addition, my problem with the video is that it is short on data and long on insults. I wish they were “dry and boring” as you said, but they are not “dry” at all, but full of personal attacks and mockery. Why attack the messenger instead of focusing on the message? I don’t think any true scientist in any paper would say Denis Minger is wrong because she is just some desperate blogger, or attack paleo/LC followers as anti-goverment contrarian freaks?

    Let’s take just one video for example, the Weston Price critique video really didn’t have a single good argument besides – “stop using ‘weasel words’ like ‘Wisdom'”, then it digressed into why processed foods were so much worse in the “old” days, so dr Price’s findings are wrong because now processed food is much better regulated? An his other argument against dr. Price, besides attaching his character, is that those people were poor and didn’t have a choice, because if they did, they would definitely chose broccoli to eat over meat. In addition it is very clear that those videos are extremely biased against eating animal flesh simply because we “shouldn’t” kill animals and it’s environmentally unsustainable, which is besides the point. All while not addressing why those people were doing just fine, actually way better then fine, eating lots of meat, dairy and saturated fats. Is that what you call a “dry” scientific critique? Are those videos the best the vegan community can present? I know you said you are not a “vegan” idealist, but the videos and the books you recommend are, so a bit of a conundrum, isn’t it?

    I know you will say that I need to watch all 30 hours of videos, may be then sheer fatigue will convince me to stop eating beef. It seems to me that you are using a “verbosity hole” tactic. But as Einstein said, if you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough, and I’m referring not to you, but the the anonymous narrator/author of the videos. I’m sorry, but you can’t just throw 30 hours of anonymously produced poor quality videos with vegan agenda at me and say – if you don’t watch it all, you are missing the point. I did give it a good try, but I can only stand so many ad-hominem attacks, mockery, condescension and, what’s worse of all, logical fallacies and straw-man arguments.

    Here is another example of misinformation, the anonymous presenter was saying that whole wheat doesn’t’ raise insulin, only processed wheat does. Which of course is false based on all of the CW research and my personal experience. BTW, I do own a blood glucose monitor and I can tell you that any Wheat raises my blood sugar more then actual table sugar. I actually did almost a year of extensive blood sugar testing to see what happens with different foods, so I’m speaking out of my experience as well.

    In addition you assume that I haven’t done any of my own research and haven’t experienced different approaches as well. I’ve watched lots of videos, read lots of books and other literature and I’ve been a vegetarian before (granted, not very low fat vegan, I ate fish), and I personally function and feel much better on LC/HF/MP diet. And I have test results to back it up, including fasting glucose, insulin, triglycerides, etc. My cholesterol is higher then 150 and If it was lower, I’d be very concerned and would like to raise it, not lower it, as there is an increased overall mortality with such low cholesterol. I’ve also lost fat weight and gained muscles. I can also fast for 24 hours with ease and probably longer, although I didn’t try. I’ve also helped many people to lose weight on some version of “paleo” diet. I’m not bragging, I don’t like talking about myself much, I’m only saying this as a counter example to your statements to show that clearly there are two ways to skin the cat as far as weight loss and health is concerned.

    My main “argument” (and I mean it in a friendliest way possible) with you is longevity – which diet is better for longevity. I would have considered trying your more extreme version of vegetarian diet then I’ve tried before, if there was some evidence that purely vegan diet is better then LC/HF/MP, but as I said before, caloric restriction diet is based on low insulin, low IGF and protein restriction, which both can be attained on your diet as well as LC/HF/Moderate protein diet, so why switch? And empirical evidence seems to confirm that – centenarians all have low insulin and blood sugar while most eat both carbs and animal proteins, although not in huge quantities. What am I missing?

    I hope I’m not missing microbiota, you said I didn’t understand it, may be I don’t. Can you help me? What is the main point of your no-gut-no-glory article? I do eat mostly whole foods that our bacteria has adapted to, so that should be a problem. I also do eat lots of salads, veggies, fermented veggies, pro-boitic veggies, etc, so my gut flora has lots of fun food. So the only thing that seems to be left is that you “may” imply that HF diet is damaging for gut microbes. I’ve yet to see any study that shows HF/LC/MP diet is damaging for us where they study people eating normal fats, not rancid PUFAs, not grains and not excess protein. Do you know of any? And you can’t just put a person on this diet for a few days, it takes time for the gut flora to adapt, so they have to study people who’ve been eating like this for some time and where are they going to find them? All Inuits who used to eat like this are dead or switched to SAD diets.

    I’m sure you are an open minded person, I presume you’ve read dr. Rosedale’s research, who’s been able to cure a lot of real diabetics with his LC/HF/MP approach and he has lots of hands on experience in the longevity research area and published papers. Although I don’t know him personally, I think I can still use his name, to throw in just one example of my “argument from authority”. So I’m asking to show me in some overly simplified way – what am I missing in this logic of caloric restriction diet working based on low insulin, low IGF and protein restriction? Where did Ron Rosedale go wrong? Is insulin, IGF and mtor not important? Is there some other pathway that you think caloric restriction works through that can only be attained by eating vegan? If I can present my point in a very simple, granted oversimplified, way above, I’m sure you can too, for the sake of the science.

    • I get what you’re saying regarding “argument from authority,” but what Ray is really doing is looking for reproducible outcomes and evidence based science.

      You asked about <calorie restriction and IGF, so I assume you haven’t read the material on how animal sourced proteins effect IGF1 production, or its link to cancer and disease. Since you asked why plant based, I assume you haven’t read published studies on how the gut bacteria that creates TMAO (and heart disease) seems to live only in the guts of meat eaters, rendering the rare consumption of red meat or eggs harmless to people who primarily live on a plant based diet.

      Pick a single issue and I’ll try to source public domain material. To source it all, most of the juicy bits are in pay only journals, would take quite a bit of time to look up and review.

      I doubt Ray will dumb down or simplify his science reasoning. Not to speak for him, but I’m betting his idea is he’s given you tons of links to simplified science as well as logic behind his conclusions. I can tell you that Ray has provided both the medical and scientific data for me to review as well as a pretty powerful N=1 data. In other words, I no longer suffer diabetic symptoms (even with sugar) and I am losing weight consistently.

      Here’s the thing. I wasn’t willing to debate the science with Ray. I made lots of assumptions along the way, to which he clearly and promptly pointed out I was both wrong and misled. But, I didn’t debate what I don’t know. I just did his silly potato diet, gritting my teeth, thinking it was wrong headed based on my understanding and experiments with glycemic response and starches. Only, Ray was right. Within a week my glucose spikes were smaller, shorter, and eventually I never spike much and enjoy very low glucose readings though I eat rice, potatoes, beans, all the stuff that requires much care before.

      If you want to understand on a science level, you’ll have to read a magnitude of material. If you want to understand on a 37,000 level (where I prefer to fly), you should watch the videos Ray’s posted before. I’m sure he’ll post many more. There’s solid research and piles of data that clearly indicates a plant based diet is superior to any high fat, high animal product diet.

      • Anna Korenina says:

        Jason, actually regarding IGF-1, both animal as well as soy protein and other isolated vegetable proteins and carbohydrates, including rice and potatoes, when in EXCESS can increase e IGF-1. There is nothing magical about animal proteins doing that, it’s about excess, that’s why on HF diet I limit protein. In fact, carbohydrates, like wheat, rice, and potatoes can also raise IGF-1 levels, because they cause rapid increases in insulin levels, leading to increases in IGF-1 signaling. IGF signaling is very connected to insulin levels. In addition, Ron Rosedale for example extensively tested IGF-1 in his patients on LC/HF/MP diet and it was low.

        As for TMAO, please see my reply to Ray in the comments above. And do please show me some studies on humans where HF/LC/MP diet is harmful for gut microbiota. Let’s pick just this one issue. As I said above: “I’ve yet to see any study that shows HF/LC/MP diet is damaging for us where they study people eating normal fats, not rancid PUFAs, not grains and not excess protein. Do you know of any? And you can’t just put a person on this diet for a few days, it takes time for the gut flora to adapt, so they have to study people who’ve been eating like this for some time and where are they going to find them? All Inuits who used to eat like this are dead or switched to SAD diets.”

        Also, I’m not disputing that Ray’s diet works for weight loss and health in the short term, and is definitely infinitely better then SAD diet, as your n=1 confirms. The question is it’s sustainability long term as well as comparison to HF/LC/MP.

        Jason, you have to also understand that not having glucose spikes doesn’t mean you are not having insulin spikes. But either way,as I said, I don’t have a problem with potatoes diet for 2 weeks. I’m sure it works for most people, just like LC/HF/MP works for most people. Let’s focus on the main topic – sustainability long term as well as comparison to HF/LC/MP.

        I do disagree with that:
        “There’s solid research and piles of data that clearly indicates a plant based diet is superior to any high fat diet.” Just stating that doesn’t make it so. I’m not asking to dumb down science, but explain in a simplified logic why it is so like I just did in my previous comment.

        thanks.

      • First, you misquoted me. I didn’t say “any high fat diet.” I said “any high fat, high animal product diet.”

        You’re going to find it very difficult to control protein (amino acid) intake and base your diet on animal product consumption. Maybe you’ve already chosen to avoid supporting an animal product rich diet. If that’s the case, we’re likely not really debating here.

        Second, I’m really not qualified to debate this issue. I’m not well versed in the research. So, I’ll have to read your data and determine whether it’s valid based on a lay perspective. I’ve just been unable to find data that supports what I think is your hypothesis. I must admit, I’m not sure I know what your hypothesis is exactly. That’s where I’d like some clarity.

        Mine is simple: a nutrient dense, whole food diet based on plants is well supported in literature and experiments. Added, a nutrient rich, calorie restricted diet has consistent replicable outcomes for longevity and disease avoidance. Calorie restriction and protein control are difficult in diets based on animal products. It’s easiest to achieve maximal nutrition to minimal calorie with plants.

        Plant based != animal free (important to remember)

        Even Loren Cordain, one of the masters of paleo, has dramatically limited his animal product suggestions in his newest Paleo Plate. It most definitely isn’t HF/LC.

        As a matter of fact, his diet suggestions are plant rich, calorie restricted diet. He even talks about phytochemicals.

        Also, no dairy in his dietary suggestions. So, slash where most people get a large chunk of animal fat.

        Anna, let me clarify your question/hypothesis: a low carb (I assume you mean all kinds of carbs: fiber, starch, sugar), high fat, and limited protein diet is as healthful, nay more healthful than a plant based, nutrient dense diet.

        HF/LC/MP != calorie restriction
        HF/LC/MP != nutrient dense
        HF/LC + animal sourced foods != protein (amino acid controlled) without severe calorie restriction

        Let’s lay down the hypothesis clearly that you support here.

        Your hypothesis is that a high fat, low carbohydrate (all carbs, not differentiating between fibers, starches, and sugars here), and moderate protein diet is superior or at least equal in quality to a nutrient dense plant based diet that limits fat (especially animal fat), refined foods (AKA nutrient poor, calorie rich foods), and calories.

        So, in your HF/LC/MP hypothesis are we limiting calories or requiring nutrient quality at all? Are you also including fiber and ignoring its carbohydrate contribution? Is this a diet that derives most of its calories from animal fats or do you see seed, nuts, and vegetable fats as equally HF valuable?

        I guess the best way to start is for you to provide evidence that your hypothesis is correct. There are many studies on starch based diets, low fat diets, low calorie diets, and decades of plant based nutrition dense diet studies. If you can provide a study that supports the HF/LC/MP hypothesis you support, that will include parameters that are more easily compared.

        Unfortunately, I’m not really equipped to debate this topic. So, I won’t. I will look at evidence that indicates I can eat butter, eggs, and bacon every day (especially if I can eat them without restriction, like I can leafy greens) and enjoy a very good HDL/LDL and triglyceride balance (VLDL indicator). If my pancreas will survive longer, I can avoid disease, especially cancer, on this diet I’m very interested in the data.

      • Robert Burkhalter says:

        Anna,
        you said, “In fact, carbohydrates, like wheat, rice, and potatoes can also raise IGF-1 levels, because they cause rapid increases in insulin levels,….”

        I was believing the same thing until Ray indicated this insulin response disappears when you condition [my word] yourself on something like the potato diet. I’m willing to suspend my beliefs and re-order my list of “facts” to explain what’s really happening.

        Michael Eades can have a lot of success believing that the insulin response never changes in the face of the “c-word”, and that’s ok. He’s dealing with terminal type-2 diabetes patients.

        I want to be disease-free until the day my body stops working, and I’m willing to hear that it’s not as simple as I currently believe.

        I’m starting to feel sympathy for Ray. He’s working his heart out and we’re kinda jumping him with a lot of noodly details.

      • admin says:

        Robert,

        Insulin response disappears with the depletion of the intramyocellular lipid that has accumulated over years of excess lipid consumption. Once it is depleted, normal blood glucose response to any ingested starch or simple sugar. As I was pre-diabetic before I started my journey 4 years ago, I was concerned. I chased down several of these high fat process, but as soon as starch or simple sugar was added back to the diet, so too did the blood glucose control.

        I was a skeptic when I began my personal experiment – I had already lost my weight and still had impaired OGTT and high fasting blood glucose. Within a month that was gone. It has remained stable – no issues even if I drank a glass of orange juice or ate a large bolus of white rice (things I don’t do outside of self tests).

        In preparing for the test I am doing now, I spent 6 weeks (originally wanted 4, but couldn’t GAIN weight – great problem to have) with suspect foods and manage to gain about 12 lbs. In less than 6 weeks, I managed to bring it back – for two weeks I watched it worsen using my CGM. I had full labs done before I began (last monday) and have monitored my glucose 24/7. Let me tell you that even though I have stuck my finger HUNDREDS of times in the last 4 years, this monitor gives one a whole new perspective.

        In short, what I am seeing says that Dr Fuhrman is correct and Dr Eades is wrong. If you want to see the difference, I differ to the End of Diabetes. I have no problem with dietary fats sourced from nuts and seeds.

        No worries on the sympathy – it really doesn’t bother me. I have been a disrupter my whole life, so many many confrontations with people that didn’t agree. I ignore them at some point after it’s clear they don’t care to listen to an alternative explanation. Why don’t I listen? I do, but there’s much of it I heard and have dismissed. If the primary author on the idea can’t convince me, a commenter isn’t likely to do it.

        One of the advantages of the PlantPostive primitive nutrition series is that he clearly uncovers some huge holes in arguments floated over and over.

        time will tell. I’m sticking to my plan and having a ball in my kitchen and lab.

        Ray

      • Brad W says:

        Robert Burkhalter says:
        Michael Eades can have a lot of success believing that the insulin response never changes in the face of the “c-word”, and that’s ok. He’s dealing with terminal type-2 diabetes patients.

        Do you have a link to where Eades described his former practice this way?

      • Ian S says:

        +1 on the noodly detail overabundance. From the perspective of someone who is only interested in clinical evidence of dramatically improved health, you guys are splitting hairs.

        Jason : I did a strict HF/LC/MP diet for 2 months earlier this year – using the Phinney & Volek model. My blood ketones were solidly over 1.5 (peaking at 5) the whole time. It was a measurably ketogenic diet. I ate TONS of non-starchy vegetables!!! I never counted veggies as carbs (I limited my carbs to about 25 g per day from fruit & nuts) and my blood testing proved that I was right, and didn’t need to. My blood ketone level turned out to be far more sensitive to protein – I had to keep it strictly to around 55g/day – about 45 g from animal protein. It’s dead easy in our society to eat HF/LC/MP via dairy fat with modest/no protein, unlimited non-starchy veggies and a little bit of meat/eggs/fish. Practically, it would be MUCH more difficult to do it without dairy, but still possible for the uber-motivated – think digging the bone marrow out of Bison bones, or eating rendered duck fat etc… (I lived on Pemmican for a month once.)

        When you take the high level view, both sides are eliminating large classes of processed foods (particularly the ancestral health guys who eliminate dairy), and promoting the abundant consumption of non-starchy veggies. I’d guess that both camps are suggesting eliminating 95% of the ‘food’ at my local grocery store and about 90% of the ‘healthy food’ at my local Whole Foods.

        My unfounded suspicion is that at the point where the two camps diverge, other confounding factors, outside of diet, could have a far greater impact on health. Trees for example: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130116163823.htm Or perhaps cold adaptation? Or maybe the lack of insects and live soild in our diets? Or our mineral-deplete drinking water? Or stress? Or … my interest in all this … the bugs living in our gut and the bugs we eat. I do suspect that the differences between these diet camps may be magnified when someone is trying to correct an existing health imbalance, so I suggest staying open to ALL dietary possibilities when looking for clinical results. Sorry for the rambling, but this debate is being hashed out many other places. I’m interested in the clinical evidence being generously presented by Ray.

      • admin says:

        Sorry for the rambling, but this debate is being hashed out many other places. I’m interested in the clinical evidence being generously presented by Ray.

        agreed. I think the difference is microbiome and it appears that diet leads microbiome, not the other way around.

        Ray

      • Ian, thanks for that response.

        I agree about the overlapping removal of processed foods. When you look at the volume of meat you were eating, it’s not very different from a plant based protocol most of us would agree looks healthful, but for the addition of animal fat.

        BTW, do you know about my 90 day butter/egg challenge? I [added] 12 eggs and 1/4 pound of butter a day to my normal diet for 90 days. The important thing here is I didn’t gain loads of weight and my HDL/LDL balance improved dramatically.

        However, I will say 35 days of starch based eating dramatically dropped my LDL (lower than EVER before). And, I’m sure a nutritarian based diet, seeds added, will improve my present HDL/LDL balance (the bane of my cholesterol panel lifelong).

        I’d love to see good data collection from the same subjects across different protocols. But, I guarantee you that this protocol you describe is very much more healthful than the average American diet. I just wonder if you would benefit from a seed/nut fat source for a 90 day experiment. I’d love to see the results.

  57. Anna Korenina says:

    Robert Burkhalter, when you “condition” on potatoes diet, glycemic response changes in most, not all, people and their blood sugar doesn’t spike as much, but that doesn’t mean that insulin is not spiking. What we test with blood glucose monitor is not insulin, but blood sugar.

    And anyway, as I said, potato diet is a temporary diet, what I’m talking about is longer term solution. I think everybody will agree that potato diet is not viable longer term.

    • Robert Burkhalter says:

      oops. my oops. Ray, if you’re willing, please clarify. Are you measuring insulin levels or blood sugar levels ?

    • wayne fearn says:

      Call me stupid but some people in 3rd world countries have nothing but a kind of gruel to live on. Malnutrition-ed – yes. nutrient deficient – yes, heavily susceptible to disease – yes.

      Alive – YES.

      The human body is an amazing machine with all kinds of systems in place to make the best of what it has, so the potato thing is not that bad if that is all you have!

      I just thought the point of this was to see where we could balance our bodies at the optimum response to the most minimal calorie with acceptable satiety and high nutrition density so we can all walk around with a healthy covering of body fat and live longer with less chronic disease than what we have seen to date. Reverse the current trend of obesity as it were!?!?

      Anna you looking at singular parts of a huge system to argue your point about? You are dragging us back to the media who suggest wonderful health and diet changes daily i.e. eat cinnamon as it lowers blood sugars…yada, yada, yada! Fight cancer with a pomegranate! Eat meat for the protein!

      Ray is now connected to a blood sugar monitor and he will have a new blog post soon with all these wonderful results we can all dig into, so lets wait and see. Patients is a virtue and all that.

      I am sure Ray will detect that insulin is present in a ratio to blood sugars that has already been proven by some wonderful scientist or he will blow that theory out of the water – which seems to be the norm since the start of his blog.

      Anna get down the medical center and get yourself a glucose implant and study your preferred ways and then lets all compare the findings!

      • Brad W says:

        Wayne, I won’t call you stupid, but I will point out that you didn’t actually respond to a single point of Anna’s. I’m not sure why you posted except to pressure her to shut up.

      • wayne fearn says:

        Brad,

        one can only hope!

      • Brad W says:

        Ray’s spent years and a ton of money trying to get to the truth of this. He’s hardly going to fold under some intelligent interlocution.

        But your bullying is lazy and stupid, Wayne. If you don’t have anything intelligent to add…well, you know the rest.

      • admin says:

        Let:
        a = b

        Then:
        a^2 = ab
        a^2 – b^2 = ab – b^2

        Factoring:
        (a – b)(a + b) = b(a – b)

        canceling (a – b) on both sides:
        (a + b) = b

        substituting a = b
        b + b = b
        2b = b
        2 = 1

        Sometime otherwise rationally sounding arguments can be built on bad basis and while they sound good, they are flawed none the less.

        If you know the issue, don’t say a word. Don’t google – think.

        While this is far more obvious then the molecular biology gobbly-goop, this is THE problem with many of the great sounding arguments. It’s not new, but internet has allowed the uniformed to ramble on with exponential growth.

        Ray

      • admin says:

        No Wayne,

        I am looking at Glucose, not insulin. I can infer what I need to know from there. It was as interesting to watch my body go out of shape as it is to see it rapidly transforming back. You know first hand your diet and health is now in control. I know it can be frustrating and I too see the crazy ideas floating around. I waited 20 years to see my work on disrupting private space come to fruition and it’s going to be a while to change the minds behind a very PROFITABLE supplement and healthcare industry.

        When the new site comes out, you get 10 invites to make an impact and they’ll be listening.

        Ray

      • J M says:

        How can one get an invite? I’m interested!

      • admin says:

        When I announce the site there will be info.

        Ray

      • Shane says:

        Ray,

        How far away is your new site. seems like an age since you first mentioned it. Hope its all going well and hoping you might give us a teaser of what will be included on/in it?

        cheers shane

        BTW I rode my motor bike to swimming yesterday morning at 5am and was shivering the whole way dispite plenty of layers. The 27 degree pool water felt like a bath hoping in but I did do a cold shower after my 1 hr session. I did 20mins of KB and BW this moring shirtless in 11 deg c weather as well. Fresh was a word that came to mind.

      • admin says:

        Every time I say, I jinx myself, so I’ll just keep it at “soon.” In the mean time, I have had a number of people go though it and getting a lot of good results. I started myself on June 3, and so we’ll see how it progresses.

        Ray

      • chris musgrove says:

        I KNOW you have to vet this properly – but – I’m still sitting here on 200#!!

        Can’t wait.

        Chris

      • chris musgrove says:

        Reread my comment and of course can wait!!

        Let’s see – started on 6/3 putting it all together – my guess 12 pounds down.

        Close?

        Chris

      • admin says:

        Close 🙂

      • wayne fearn says:

        Hi Ray,

        “I am sure Ray will detect that insulin is present in a ratio to blood sugars that has already been proven by some wonderful scientist or he will blow that theory out of the water – which seems to be the norm since the start of his blog.”

        Sorry, I know you are looking at your blood glucose and my comment above was poorly constructed in all the excitement of today’s shenanigans. What i meant to say was that as you are looking at your glucose I would expect the insulin released to be proportionate to that blood glucose in some way and either it will be agreeable to previous data or it would fly in the face of that data which seems to happen often here.

      • My insulin levels were verified extremely low in a 24 hour urine analysis 35 days on starch, A1C dropped, glucose tests dropped dramatically. Fasting rests around 60-80mg/dL now, 4 hour postprandial averages 60-80mg/dL. Spikes seldom over 120mg/dL.

  58. wayne fearn says:

    Brad W,

    I agree that was a silly comment but bulling is a little harsh as to bully someone there has to be a catalogue or history of events to the same. And stupid………….. very much a possibility!

    I wait as others do and have just become affected by the noisy neighbour in the flat below!

    Also Brad I would love to have something intelligent to offer the group, but the intelligent thing to do would be to wait for the evidence of the elephant and not jump to conclusions that because you have found a footprint there is an actual elephant near (when in fact there is a little lad around the corner with a mock elephant footprint).

    So it does make me wonder why those challenge the man doing the experiment when they themselves could be doing just that to satisfy their curiosity? If Ray was to go to the lavatory and gather a sample of his urine there are people here that would debate the colour of said urine, the temperature and chemical make up when Ray is holding the sample in his very hands, in the privacy of his own bathroom.

    • Brad W says:

      You said you hoped her comment would pressure her to shut up. If that’s not bullying, I don’t know what is.

      And then you have a silly elephant metaphor to again say that “people” (ie, Anna) should shut up and wait for wisdom to be delivered.

      And then you argue that people can’t converse if they’re not going to go to Ray’s exact, extreme lengths. ie, another way of telling Anna to SHUT UP.

      And then an asinine story about piss, no less.

      Anna is clearly extremely intelligent, seems quite astute on the science and is bending over backwards to be respectful to Ray. It’s a bit surprising to me that Ray got a bit ruffled, but as I said, he’s a big boy.

      If Ray can’t handle Anna, he’ll be in deep shit once he goes public.

      • wayne fearn says:

        Yes Brad you are again correct!

      • admin says:

        Actually Brad,

        This isn’t correct. I don’t have to “handle” Anna. Clearly what she is talking about is not something I support or recommend. She doesn’t have her own forum, so she hangs out here to post. I don’t agree with the ideas of Weston Price, nor do I agree at all with Rosedales recommendations.

        I ask her to read two books for details as I didn’t want to go into nutritionism – people talking with a lot of multi-syllable, technical words and not really saying much. I would further point her to End of Diabetes (also Fuhrman) if she wants to go into diabetes. One can’t argue with nutritionism, because its chasing a bubble in a bumper sticker. For every unique, reaction she brings up there are dozens more we aren’t talking about.

        It’s unfortunate that people are persuaded by people like Anna and there isn’t much one can do. The words sound good, but it doesn’t hold up to the scrutiny of what has happened in peer review over the last century. The people that are trying to get her back on topic (I believe we were talking about metabolism, RQ, etc..), were unsuccessful. Some of them have actually gone through my program one on one and achieved results. Some of their frustration is due to things they don’t want to divulge and some of it is simply not knowing how, but knowing it definitely does work.

        There are thousands of Annas on the internet. I have nothing to offer her except a sounding board for her ideas so she can reach people and feel important. That has run dry. I feel sorry for the people the run down this rabbit hole, but that is their choice. Internet has created a lot of wikidiots, blidiots, and pumedidiots. I am not going to change that.

        This is exactly the reason I chose the process peer review for vetting my work and not putting it all out here at once. I have very good collaborators on endocrinology, longevity/biology, and anthropology and major academic institutions. None of them would agree and they are all leaders in their field (truth not appeal to authority).

        She is free to eat how she wishes, as is everyone, I think it’s incorrect, but either way I’m not going to waste any more time with it. The good news is that all the work we are doing with be on an invitation only forum. If people want to participate they can get invited, and if not they can leave.

        Ray

      • Bryan W says:

        Ray,

        I respect and admire you for not wanting to debate nutritionism.
        I don’t think Anna wanted to change your mind at all (could be wrong about that though) maybe she just wanted a few answers to some pointed questions she has. No reason to insult her simply because she doesn’t blog and have her own site.

        I personally do way better on a high fat low carb diet. Maybe it has something to do with me having epilepsy as a child ( petit mal) I think it is called. By better I mean better weight management, better feelings of satiety, better mood and better bloodwork results.
        You do better on a low fat high carb diet and think everybody should be the same.
        Maybe it is the difference in gut microbiome that different people are affected differently with these different diets. Heck if I know.
        You don’t have to respond to this response but a little more humility from you would go a long way IMHO.
        Bryan

      • admin says:

        Microbiome follows diet. Not the other way around.

        Ray

      • Bryan W says:

        Microbiome follows diet. Not the other way around.
        Ray

        I ain’t so sure on that Ray. My parents fed me the standard american diet and yet I still had childhood epilepsy. I would have had a better/healthier adult life if they would have put me on a high fat diet back then instead of medication.
        How long does it take to change one’s microbiome?
        And if I have a microbiome that prefers high fat what are the benefits to changing my microbiome to one that thrives on a low fat/high carb diet?
        What is the best way to change the microbiome? Take strong antibiotics and start over from scratch?
        Thanks,
        Bryan

    • Robert Burkhalter says:

      Brad W.

      Michael Eades describes it that way in his book Protein Power. He even commented that he wished they wouldn’t wait until they were terminal. proteinpower.com is his website

  59. Shane says:

    Ana

    I brought Rosedales book last night and have read 1/2 of it. Basically same principles as Ray suggest but with more emphasis on omega 3 fats from nuts, fish seeds. Limits saturated fats (meats) for the first few weeks and is backed by his study’s on his own patients in his medical practice. I see it as a good alternative for those that still like to eat animal products, eggs, lean meats, fish chicken in small qtys supported by unlimited veggies, nuts, seeds and limited fruits

    I give it a go for a few weeks as I see it easier to follow “for me” than eat for life. I plugged yesterday’s meals in and it came out as 1800 cals lower than my BMR by 500 cals so a calorie restricted diet based on 60:20:20 (fat:protein:carbs). I might start logging foods on Jason’s site if any one wants to see what it’s about, may not logg every meal as I lead a busy life but will try….

    Rosedales has also researched calorie restricted diets and has a few papers on it that we’re interesting to read. I got more out of it than those videos links any way….

    I had a look at what Jason’s been eating the last few weeks and I don’t want to eat that way ( no offence intended Jason, joel or Ray) so Rosedales is an alternative for “me”. BTW great site Jason easy to use and great to see what people eat as they say a picture paints a 1000 words.

    • Anna Korenina says:

      Shane, glad you like the book.Some aspects of the book are a bit outdated as it was printed long time ago, but the general ideas are still the same. Keep us posted.

    • Shane, I take no offense. My meals look horrid most often. It’s not about tasting good all the time or even nutrition for me. It’s about maintaining the gains I’ve had so far with starch. Ray actually privately chastises me for that, often. He keeps telling me to reach Fuhrman. If I ate a Fuhrman diet, I’d be a better example of nutritiarian living.

      Also, I drink too much beer and have been making up for decades without potatoes and rice like a drunk back on the sauce 🙂

      Thanks. I hope to improve dosIQ and make it much easier to use (mobile/web) so you can track all sorts of stuff.

      Throw comments, suggestions, and criticisms at me without fear. I never take it offense to criticism, especially when it comes to my diet.

      • Shane says:

        Jason,

        Your meals look ok, especially the beer…. I haven’t had a drink for a few weeks. Not missing the beer but every thing in mediation.

        I have problems with beans, well people around me have problems if I eat beans.. Terrible gas even after a few days of including them into a ETL type diett. I also finding that milk and bread have the same effect if eating any diet. Beer probably does as well but that’s a risk/side affect I can live with 🙂

        Only suggestion for your site would be to combine it with a calorie/nutrian counter. When I track Marcos which isn’t often I use MFP or crono counter. The interface between phone, iPad camera etc is easy to use. I have logged all yesterday’s meals

        Cheers

      • Ray hates that I post so much non-nutritarian food, I’m sure. I haven’t really converted to nutritarian full tilt. I’m dabbling in nutritarian foods, but still rely heavily on starches. I’m working on that in the next few weeks, so follow me and keep me honest.

        As for gas, my experience has been that I develop a tolerance only after I eat a new food a few weeks. It takes a while for the gut culture to catch up.

  60. Anna Korenina says:

    Brad W, thank you 🙂

  61. Ryan Miller says:

    I used to be a believer in the “high insulin makes you fat” theory. I did a very low carb, higher fat diet (I didn’t add fat but ate higher fat meats with no dairy) for a year a few years ago. I lost a lot of weight and got to my lowest adult weight.

    I felt great at first but eventually started to run into problems. I couldn’t sleep, I was cold all of the time and I became very fatigued and lethargic. I believe now that I had suppressed my thyroid and found a lot of research that backs up that idea (VLC suppresses thyroid, which makes sense as the diet essentially resembles starvation).

    I tried doing a more traditional low carb diet but eventually regained all of the weight. I also found that I had reset my setpoint ten pounds heavier.

    Based on the writings of Stephan, Carbsane and Ray, I eventually chucked the low carb mindset. I’ve switched to a more plant and starch based diet. It’s not vegan ( I still have a little chicken, shrimp, white fish, and non-fat Greek yogurt) but very low fat (less than 15%) and low calorie density. The interesting thing to me is that my fasting blood sugar went from a consistent 110 to the mid-90’s in the first two weeks, despite eating all of those evil carbs (and only dropping a couple of pounds). I also feel much better, with a “bounce in my step” most of the time. I sleep much better than I did on low carb, though that is a relative comparison as I have always sucked at sleeping.

    Just as an aside, I tried the potato diet thing a couple of times and actually had a problem with my blood sugar going too low. After about three days, it would drop down into the 60’s and I would get kind of shaky and feel sick. Adding in greens, veggies and a little protein (sorry for that term, Ray) has kept the blood sugar on a more even keel.

    • Ryan, I know Ray isn’t debating or consulting on DM2 here. But, I’m a recovering diabetic. I had the [exact] same response to potatoes. My glucose would spike up a bit over 100 and drop to 60 in 4 hours. Sucked!

      Guess what. That’s normal. I hate to break this to you, but that’s tolerable levels for any healthy adult. And if it hurts, that’s an indication you usually suffer elevated levels and have become accustomed to an unhealthy BG.

      Mine drops to the low 60s all the time. No big deal. It’s normal.

      • Ian S says:

        “I’m dabbling in nutritarian foods, but still rely heavily on starches.”

        What is the alternative? How else would you get enough energy without relying on starches? (I’m asking because I’m 11 days in, and have experienced an unwanted 4 lb weight loss already. I’ve tried ratcheting up the nut consumption – almonds, walnuts and cashews. Hopefully that will stem the weight loss.)

      • admin says:

        That’s the correct approach.

        Limit starch to that which occurs in the legumes, vegetables, etc and increase calories via raw nuts and seeds. Shoot for about an ounce/day.

        Daily should include:

        – large salad
        – at least a half cup of beans/legumes
        – 3 fresh fruits
        – at least one ounce of raw nuts and seeds
        – at least one large (double size) serving of steamed green vegetables – preferably cruciferous.

        Rapidly achieving weight loss goals is by temporary restricting things that might otherwise be healthy (exercise/fat) is not the only path, but its very effective.

        Ray

  62. Anna Korenina says:

    Ray, I think I have my reply to Jason stuck in moderation since yesterday – June 11, 2013 at 2:03 pm. Can you please post it or let me know what I need to edit? thanks.

    • Anna Korenina says:

      I guess I’ll just try to repost it my missing reply to Jason.

      Jason, I’ve never said I base my diet on animal protein, actually I’ve repeated many times that I limit my protein intake, which consists of both fish/seafood and meat. I do not find it difficult to control protein, at least not any more difficult then not to eat any meat/fish/seafood/dairy/butter/bacon, etc. Nor am I opposed to eating veggies for their phytochemicals and or fiber (which I do not count as carbs). So I”m not sure why we are still beating the dead horse.

      The fats come from all sources – butter, olive oil, bacon, beef fat, avocado, nuts, fatty fish, egg yolk. And I do not restrict food amount, but restrict protein and non-fiber carbs amount and “and enjoy a very good HDL/LDL and triglyceride balance (VLDL indicator)”.

      As for nutrient quality, there is a plethora of evidence that we absorb more vitamins from fat or when we eat them with fat, then just from steamed veggies. And as I said before, animal organs are very high in nutrients and so are animal fats and don’t forget shellfish, which I eat in addition to veggies and nuts. So I really doubt I’m nutrient deficient. As Ray said, it’s whole foods that matter, I eat whole foods. Plus Weston Price showed NO nutrients deficiency on meat/fish/seafood based diet in “primitive” people.

      • Anna Korenina says:

        So you are correct about my “question/hypothesis: a low carb (I assume you mean all kinds of carbs: fiber, starch, sugar), high fat, and limited protein diet is as healthful, nay more healthful than a plant based, nutrient dense diet.”?

        The answer is based not on my hypnosis, but Ron Rosedale’s, as one example because he explains it so eloquently. To oversimplify, insulin controls lifesapan, so this diet works just like and may be even better then CRON based on lowering insulin, IGF, mTor and burning fat, not carbs, for fuel which generates less ROS in our mitochondria.

        And btw, all starches and whole grains raise insulin, so that’s why I wouldn’t be eating potatoes and rice on a regular basis.

  63. Anna Korenina says:

    Ian S/Ray, can you point me to the places where this debate was hashed out? Meaning LC/HF/MP vs nutritarian based diet specifically for caloric restriction and longevity, not weigh loss? Is there a blog comparing the two? Or a video clearly explaining the differences between the two? Thanks.

    Also, I agree that “diet leads microbiome”, but I still don’t understand why normal whole foods and fats from animal products are bad for it if one still eats lots of veggies? Do you have any other pointers besides TMAO, which, as I was pointing out in my comments above, is not very compelling?

    Thanks. And as Bryan W said, I’m not trying to change your mind, but I was hoping you can clarify a few contradictions for me.

  64. Anna Korenina says:

    Ray, you said “I have no problem with dietary fats sourced from nuts and seeds.” Do you mean that these types of fat dont’ have to be limited at all? Is that because of the saturated fat in animal products?

    thanks.

  65. jesse marandino says:

    Hi Ray,

    With regards to the kettlebell fat-burning debunking in the original post (sorry for bringing this on-topic 😉 ), Clarence Bass reviewed a study which shows the opposite of what you observed. I think it points to some limitations in your sampling in two particular points:

    1. sampling only up to an hour after exercise is probably not sufficient to extrapolate to 1+ hours
    2. unsupervised kettlebell swinging may not be sufficient, perhaps as experience builds or an expert gives guidance with respect to reps/weights used and durations of swinging would produce different results.

    Here is the link to CBass’s review from which you can no doubt access the study:

    http://www.cbass.com/CalorieBurnWeightIntervals.htm

    Note that both protocols, not just the interval training protocol, increased REE 22 hours later, and this means more fat burning 22 hours later pretty much regardless of RQ. However, the RQ did go down on the interval style with respect to the non-interval style of weight training, so it lends some credence to the kettlebell swings being potentially (again, supervision and programming are not ad-hoc and whimsical) “good for fat burning”. I believe that the benefits of the HIRT protocol vs. the TT protocol are likely due to a periodization effect since the participants were “trained”, which in my mind means they had probably already spent a lot of time on something like the TT protocol and as such were relatively more efficient at performing it and producing less need for adaptation in the following days.

    Give it a review and see if you want to revise and retest.

  66. Quinton Fraser says:

    G’day Ray,

    ***hoping to get things back on topic***

    I’m very much hoping the glucose monitoring is leading to some data on RQ after eating different types of foods and hopefully RQ during a big blood sugar spike.

    I’d love to know if glucose spikes do stall fat loss.

    If I had to put money on it I’d bet that RQ wouldn’t change much in response to food but I do have mixed luck with gambling.

    Cheers

    Q

  67. Thomas Hemming says:

    Hi Ray,

    In case you haven’t seen this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1664890/ ‘Fuel selection during intense shivering in humans: EMG pattern reflects carbohydrate oxidation’. It comes to the same conclusion as you.
    I think there could done some interesting multivariate statistical analysis on their data set.

    Best regards,

    Hemming

  68. Manuel Labor says:

    A few questions…

    Have you investigated the “CoreControl” or “Stanford Cooling Glove”? It cools the blood via the palm using a vaccuum to keep the blood vessels dialated. What about a cooling vest? The military tests suggested that the cooling vest, but not the glove increased endurance under heat stress if I remember correctly, so I’m not sure about the effectiveness of the corecontrol. There is a DIY version that can be made on the cheap, the “avacore” runs at around $900.

    Do you have other metrics such as internal body temperature? Could the effect be achieved without the use of a pool filled with water at the intended temperature? How much immersion time is really necessary to get the post-cold metabolic shift, have you identified a point of diminishing returns in terms of time in the water or core temperature?

    Have you looked at any data from hypothermia research?

  69. Rob Millar says:

    Ray. Great stuff. A couple of questions.

    When get RQ down towards 0.75 in “fat-burning mode” are you finding significant appetite loss/suppression?

    Have you looked at how this relates to leptin sensitivity and “set point”? Could lowering of RQ be interpreted as a lowering the set point?

    Thanks
    Rob

  70. Ashryn says:

    I don’t know what it means, but I wanted to share a thing and hope someone has an explanation.. I have just been on a 3 week cruise through Asia where meals were eaten on schedule, no fasting, and as many ‘carbs, fat and proteins’ as I liked.. So naturally I went to town. The only thing I kept to was mild cold stress when sleeping. (It is summer in the northern hemisphere, so hot and humid in the day time.) I did spend most of my days doing ‘accidental’ exercise in the form of taking the stairs and walking about.
    I gained no weight in 3 weeks of this. I am amazed. And confused. What is going on here?
    Is this the set point I hear people talk about?

    I noticed that people around me ate and ate until they felt sick, whereas I just ate what I felt like, and stopped when I had had enough, but still, I probably consumed double or more calories each meal than I had before I left. Why didnt I gain weight? (Not that I am complaining! But I thought I had understood how it all worked, and clearly I don’t)

    The other change from the usual was no supplements of any kind.

    …I must say it is difficult to kick the chocolate habit now I am home again. It’s the only thing I can’t stay away from if its in the house. Do I need to retrain my gut/brain with potatoes again now?

    Ray, I know you’re busy moving us forward, and probably sick of explaining things to people who keep missing the point, so please don’t waste time on this 🙂 but if there’s anyone else who has some ideas and some time to waste, I’d love to understand what just happened

  71. jesse marandino says:

    Hey Ray,

    When you get time to look into the Clarence Bass article I posted you may also want to check out some of the self-monitoring that Dr. Peter Attia has done and displayed/discussed here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqwvcrA7oe8

    Specifically he tracks his RQ and his metabolic rate through exercise. He shows a significant boost in fat burning post-exercise. He also is burning quite a bit more calories while doing the exercise than your test subject. Your subject burned 26kcal due to exercise in a 20 minute period, but Dr. Attia was burning 12kcal/minute over resting during exercise. This means that if he were to do the protocol that you had your subject do, with the same durations, he would have done 3.33 minutes and burned ~40kcal over baseline rather than 26kcal. Also his RQ was shifted much further towards fat burning. I think he’s onto something and we should pay attention, not try to avoid it. His RQ stays low for 2 hours after his workout. Folks trying to get into and stay in a low RQ would want to understand what he is doing different than your test subject.

    It seems like if you want to study this stuff you need to study a range of people, including people who are *good* at their exercise, and also on a variety of diets, and also for longer than 1 hour.

    best,
    jesse

  72. wayne fearn says:

    So been discussing weight loss with someone who helps people with weight loss from a mind and motivation POV.

    He put his client on a calorie restricted plan of eating and gym based exercise. When I mentioned the exercise may slow weight loss he reacted as if I was a conspiracy theorists and told me to keep my eye out for aliens.

    He also mentioned that exercise speeds up a sluggish metabolism but didn’t appreciate it when I said that our metabolism changes minute by minute according to a plethora of biological functions.

    I always believe that when helping others it is best to to at least be aware of current data?

    Ray bring forth the truth!

  73. Seth Featherston says:

    way late on this but this was one off the best posts ever. great information.

  74. chandra says:

    Is there a difference in what you call “Thermal Loading” v/s mild cold stress?

    (Still learning your site)

    Thanks

  75. Ian S says:

    “Brown fat cells convert chemical energy into heat in response to cool temperatures—a form of thermogenesis that is induced indirectly via the sensory nervous system and a well-known signaling pathway. But certain white and beige fat cells can sense temperature directly to activate the suite of genes involved in heat generation, according to a study published today (July 1) in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.”

    http://www.the-scientist.com//?articles.view/articleNo/36286/title/Temperature-Sensing-Fat-Cells/

    L. Ye et al., “Fat cells directly sense temperature to activate thermogenesis,” PNAS, doi/10.1073/pnas.1310261110, 2013

  76. sarb says:

    Hi Ray, when is the new blog post coming out? I can’t wait!

    Ps can I take part in any of the experiments. PM if you can. I would really appreciate it.

    Sarb

  77. Daniel Verdin says:

    So i’m kind of new to your site but have been researching cold thermogenesis for a while. I have just started ice baths 5 days per week and have been on a lower carb 30-50 grams per day, higher fat diet consisting of grass fed fats and mct oils. I have been 220 lbs for the past 5 years and cannot break through this f-ing plateau. I like the way i feel after a 20-30 ice bath consisting of 40lbs of ice in my tub. this is only my second week doing baths but about week 6 on diet. weight still has not budged…no excercise, restricted calories using intermitent fasting, and lots of cold water. what gives? any advice is absolutely appreciated

    • admin says:

      Good to hear from you.

      So here’s an idea – drop exercise, drop all the meat and dairy (if you eat that) an do nothing but potatoes. I don’t care how many you eat – steamed, boiled, baked – no butter and keep salt to a minimum. If you’d rather do rice, Tate okay, just don’t load it down with soy sauce and don’t go back and forth – you will be bored and if you stick with it for 2 weeks you’ll see results.

      You are simply over eating. There are hundreds in the same boat. Potatoes or rice are health food necessarily, but if you can’t control eating for just two weeks – complete with parties, business dinners, or every other event we decide to make eating the centerpiece – then you’ll likely stay plateaued. You won’t loses muscle mass if you stop exercise and you will lose weight.

      I have people that don’t “plateau” even after 5 months – I think plateau is a myth. It’s a story we tell ourselves to rationalize our lack of progress.

      Keep us posted.

      Ray.

      • Daniel Verdin says:

        interesting, it goes against everyone i follow (tim ferriss, jack kruse, dave asprey, mark sisson) all these guys say eat meat, lift heavy, and dont work out hard. I’ve never heard of just potatoes or rice, what about leptin/insulin resistance, blood sugar spikes and so on. I mean i know you know your stuff but wouldnt a simple calorie restriction diet with vegetables and lean meats (say 500-700 cals per day + ice baths) be sufficient?

        Also, how long should ice baths be if using 40lbs of ice and in a average size tub.

        thanks again for your help!!!!!!!!!

      • 1) I’ve known Ray long enough to know he doesn’t endorse the two bags of ice in a tub of cold water approach to cold exposure.
        2) Ferriss encourages experimentation. So does Asprey. But, if you’re doing paleo and you’re still fat… well, what will it hurt to try something new for a few weeks? He’s not suggesting a potato diet is a good nutritional plan for life, just trying to rattle your cage and show you how powerful a little viewpoint change can be. Trust me, if you’re following Sisson thinking that’s the ONLY or MOST EFFECTIVE way to get ripped… you need a little viewpoint change. Cause, that’s wrong.
        3) I’m a diagnosed DM2 — type 2 diabetic — and I have completely spikes WITH Ray’s endorsed dietary approach. PS: potatoes ain’t the long term plan! But, after just a few days of Ray’s crazy potato thing my glucose levels balanced in the 60 – 80mg/dL range, and that simply never happened on paleo [if] I consumed any “high carb” food, like potatoes.

        When Ray told me to try this out, I figured “why not?” I thought it was crazy, but the results were undeniable.

  78. sarb says:

    Hi Ray, emailed you back to your comment so i don’t think it got through..here it is!

    Hi Ray,

    I’ve been reading your blog for a while now so I have already done potatoes for a couple weeks before, trying it the second time now without salt. It made me stall the last the time, as you said no plateau, just water retention. At the moment I am doing potatoes with lots of cruciferous greens. I’ve also started reading Eat to live. Are you going to expand on how this works? I remember you mentioning dietary induced thermogenesis, didn’t know how much of a factor this was.

    I was hoping to be involved in any new experiments you are working on. Since my degree in food science I have been obsessed with diets etc. I find it so fascinating! I’ve literally read any book going but the information on your site has taken it to a whole new level. I teach Science at high school so I fully respect you going back to basics and questioning at how we arrive at everything and how we take regurgitated information and take it for gospel. I prefer this method of doing this as opposed to just giving a recipe to follow.

    I’ve done potatoes and contrast showers. I know you are working on something glucose related and if you don’t mind I would like to be involved but understand if you wanted to keep this wrapped up for now.

    Great articles on RQ etc by the way, again totally game changing.

    I donate a monthly amount to thank you for all your hard work but you must let me know when you are next in the U.K so I can buy you a few pints!

    Thanks

    Sarb

    • wayne fearn says:

      i Am in the UK too Sarb.

      South Wales.

      • sarb says:

        Cool, I’m in the east midlands.

      • wayne fearn says:

        Ray may be here (UK) for a very interesting venture that he suggested to me maybe October time, while he is here doing other stuff. You are not too far away!

      • sarb says:

        Hi,

        I’m on board the U.K Venture, sounds great.
        @Neil, You’re not a red dog are you? lol

      • sarb says:

        Sounds good, I would to be come, if Ray doesn’t mind of course?! Drop me a email Wayne. Not sure how to do it on this site though.

      • Neil Vorley says:

        I’m in the East Midlands as well. We could have own UK thermogenex branch 🙂

      • admin says:

        If we want to put a two-day paid seminar together, I could probably could get wim over from NL. We can do half nutrition/metabolism and half cold stress/immune system.

        As well we’ve discussed similar events in the US.

        Ray

      • Neil Vorley says:

        Is there anything we can do to help push a potential UK seminar?
        Couldn’t reply under Rays comment – soz

  79. tpdietz says:

    I know I’m late to the party, but I just discovered your website and am blown away by these 3 posts! This last one was awesome! You may not get this, but I was wondering, once you get out of the water and just “shiver” does it matter what the ambient temp of your surroundings are? I ask because here in San Diego, we have ocean water that ranges from low to mid-60’s and never gets much above 70. I was thinking that we could be in the ocean for a while, then sit on our beach towels “recovering” where the temp could be in the 80’s on some days. Any thoughts?

    Thanks again.

    Tim

  80. Carlos Welch says:

    Just got back from 45 days in Vegas. Getting back on track today. Looking forward to it.

  81. Carlos Welch says:

    I got back on track today. I’m looking forward to some great results again.

  82. Jas Maz says:

    Late to the game, but I just want to express my gratitude for the work you’re doing.
    I’ve read through all your posts, and most comments, and there are a couple things I can’t resolve about the role of exercise in weight reduction.

    1) If calories that are not accessed by your body for energy end up stored as fat, why wouldn’t we want to burn calories via exercise to prevent that from happening? I understand that during exercise we shift from burning some stored fat to burning none, but in that case aren’t we still burning calories that would be stored as fat if not utilized?

    2) Is it true that vigorous exercise is bad on a calorie-restricted diet because muscle tissue is damaged during activity, and there is not sufficient resources available to rebuild it, resulting in muscle “loss”? What about activity that elevates heart rate but doesn’t produce perceptible soreness?

    Many thanks.

    • admin says:

      Welcome

      1). It’s a myth that all excess calories are stored as fat. So one can think of the current diet< ->exercise paradigm as the difference between two companies. The first has $10 million in sales and a healthy net income – there’s money left over after everything is paid. The second company has $10 million in sales and is running a $50,000/year debt. In 20 years that’s a million in the hole – regardless of cash flow.

      Like cash flow in a business, exercise has lots of benefits. They are the subject of thousands of blogs, so that’s not my focus. Income is not the most critical element of successful business. How much one keeps is more important. The idea is somewhat reversed in that our savings are the problem when it comes to losing. Weight loss is dominated by food Intake. Calories that “aren’t calories” and the many other schemes that induce unsustainable short term change must be considered in the context of lifestyle. Calorie reduction always works. It’s our relationship with food that’s broken.

      2) I’m not making the claim of choosing weight loss or exercise. Recall I lost my weight by doing 6 small frequent meals and 6 workouts a week. I alternated upper/lower body (reverse pyramid with compound superset) with HIIT cardio no longer than 20 minutes. body for Life works.

      But that was not sustainable for me and ultimately I gained back. In 2008 my focus become why we GAIN weight not how to lose. Tim’s feature on me was on old work completed. Since that time my shift in focus is on mild cold stress and caloric restriction with health.

      What I’m pretty certain of now, because I did the work myself and repeated many of the old, forgotten science experiments of the last century, with similar results, is they were correct. The problem is what we don’t teach this anymore for a host of reasons.

      Here’s the choice: slow and steady and be certain not to fall off the wagon (I believe that’s an integral survival trait by the way) or rapid with a rapid switch to sustainable – easier in my opinion.

      The BEST solution – fast or slow – is lifestyle modification and anyone that’s worked with me directly knows that’s what I’m focused on for success.

      What I despise about the “exercise myth” are all the people 30-50 lbs over weight and think the number of push-ups, pull ups, and marathons they complete is an indication of how healthy they are. That’s nonsense. Obesity is a biomarker for chronic disease it doesn’t cause it. There’s likely something going on inside I’d you look into the mirror and see 30 or more pounds of excess fat. Chronic disease affects thin people too – so don’t pull out the one long-lived example person that did so despite lots of known bad habits.

      It catches up with the statistical mass majority.

      I’m not against exercise, and will continue to do so. I just don’t think it’s a very effective way to lose weight.

      Ray

  83. Michael Kurland says:

    Haven’t posted in a while Ray, I hope your tests are going well.

    Have you done anything with the difference of supplements (such as PAGG on your website) on RQ and also mediation on RQ?

  84. Yulai says:

    I spend 6-8 hours a week in my car, turning the AC to the goosebumps level while driving + a ~5min cold shower every day and sleeping mostly without a blanket has speded up the process by 1.2kg per week so with a ~1000 cal a day diet I currently loose 1.7kg per week. I would like to lower the calorie intake further, but social obligations, and not being able to always decide what is on the plate for lunch kind of gets in the way. It is slightly annoying when you know you could be perfectly happy with 500cal/day but such is life.

    I hope that soon I will be able to be even colder while driving, maybe getting to a light shivering level and get the last 300g/week, hitting the 2kg/week mark would be pretty awesome 🙂

  85. Jason Harrison says:

    Help: I’m trying to find the original statement, and references, regarding the number of calories in chicken breast meat from protein versus fat as a function of time. The statement was comparing older slower chicken raising practices to the more modern “overfed” chicken raising practices common today in conventional farming. As a result of the modern practices the statement was implying that chicken have metabolic disorders including storage of much more fat within the muscle cells. Thus chicken breast used to have nearly zero calories of fat, but now has many calories from fat. So much that chicken breast shouldn’t be considered a lean meat.

    I’ve tried searching the site, my email (subscribed to comments), the web, but can’t seem to find this statement or original sources. Can anyone help me out?

    • Steve B says:

      Are you sure it was on this site and not another like -http://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-eating-obesity-cause-obesity/ Also, the term “intramyocellular lipids” comes to mind…hope that helps

  86. Alex Stoilov says:

    Ray, when you are going to post some new article?

  87. Yulai says:

    while Ray is writing, here is something interesting to read http://goo.gl/zoBDDe and you can watch these 2 videos as a teaser http://goo.gl/kwvPCu

  88. dan hoskins says:

    Hey, Ray,

    I haven’t posted before, and haven’t read many of the other comments, so please forgive me if you have answered this or very similar questions many times already.

    You note the only way to reduce body fat is to reduce caloric supply from nutrition below caloric demand for metabolism, long term. Clearly yes. You basically say we restrict caloric intake by willpower; denying cravings or appetite. I wonder if there is more benefit to be found in exploring where our appetites arise and how they are controlled.

    Consider, there are people who are not obese now, and most people used to be not obese. Most people fight cravings relatively little, in my opinion. Your own experience, being 50 pounds overweight after 20 years, or oversupplied by about 170 calories per week, shows you had your intake matched to your use of calories pretty closely over the 20 years. Rather than noticing it didn’t work, I submit your appetite worked pretty well. If we presume your consumption exactly matched your appetite for the fifty years, and you indulged every craving, the net result was a very gradual increase in bodyfat. Imagine you had an appetite that overshot need by 170 calories each DAY, rather than week. You would have been 350 pounds heavier, not 50.

    So I think the theory of the set-point needs some respect. As noted in Tim Ferris’s book, the article about the Shangri La diet, It is an old theory. Others are hacking it now. (I just bought my nose-clip today.) If most of us eat in response to our appetite, and our appetite seeks to hit a set-point for bodyfat, then how does the set-point get adjusted? How do we give it a long-term reset?
    It seems drinking fructose before meals does something, as does eliminating the aroma of our food. Perhaps excercise is valuable because it helps adjust the set-point? The article and notes indicate that Slow Carb may work in part by not following each meal with a big surge in glucose, driving the set-point up, so allowing it to return to what the set-point may have been in an age before frequent big-glucose-load meals.

    I plan to include swimming at the Y in my plan to lose 20 pounds by Christmas. My technique sucks, so I can relax and work on that rather than trying to tear up the water. I am eating with the Slow Carb diet now. I may drift toward the CKD. Been stuck around 222 pounds for a few weeks. I haven’t been measuring bodyfat separately, so I don’t really know what is going on.

    I would love to hear your thoughts on the set-point model.

    Dan Hoskins

  89. wayne fearn says:

    Protein, protein, protein!

    Has the western world gone protein mad and how will this affect the next generation?

  90. Sally Breyer says:

    Thanks Ray for sharing your research with us!
    I am so excited by what I understand.
    But, Oh my! Hours to read all the posts on this article. Now what to do? Should I just eat potatoes for a couple of weeks and then switch to Nutritarian type diet? What is better, swimming in cool pool or taking warm/cold showers? If I swim how long should I do it for?
    Looking forward to learning more.
    Much thanks,
    Sally

  91. Paul Adams says:

    Anyone know where Ray is?

  92. Robert McAdams says:

    Ray, I bookmarked your site after reading Tim’s book and promptly forgot about it. Which is probably good, since recently I came back and devoured all your articles with the comments. Not sure that I could have stood waiting for each new one, lol. I have a few questions/observations from several of your articles that I’ll try to combine into this one post.

    First, your insistence on dropping the “macro talk” really hit home. We all know glucose from broccoli and cotton candy are two different beasts, yet throw around “carbs” anyway. It now seems better to me to think of food as fuels or repair materials. Very binary.
    This especially resonates with me because a member of my family was a patient of the Eades in Little Rock in 93-94, before their book came out. This person lost quite a bit of weight and persuaded me to try “low carb”. I lost quite a bit of fat before plateauing, and subsequent attempts have had diminshing results. Later, the family member discovered they had also been on fen-phen.
    That experience led me to think the root of my problem was “hyperinsulimia”. The “sugar turns to fat” meme set in strong. I personally worked with a skinny sugar junkie, however. And what about cultures that had low obesity rates but high grain consumption? Ray, is there any evidence that high blood sugar is converted to fat if glycogen stores are less that full? My understanding now is that insulin shuttles fat droplets into fat stores and EXCESS(above glycogen repletion) glucose into fat. Is that wrong? If a person has insulin resistance, then shouldn’t their insulin fail to shuttle fat droplets into fat stores, just as it fails to shuttle glucose into the muslces? What difference should glycemic index make if the amount of blood sugar can be fully deposited into glycogen? It seems like it would matter much more if fat was consumed at the same time. If a person eats just fat without raising their blood sugar due to glucose consumption, is that fat shuttled into stores, or does it just circulate in the blood while your body uses it?

    I also have a question about a comment you made in Muscling Metabolism, Part 1. The comment:
    “Now I will substitue real data. Let’s say your RMR is 2200 a day – before you move around, etc.. IF you will look up at at this post, you will see a picture of Rick – that’s where his RMR was – so we aren’t far off. I KNOW, with calibrated, certified gas/volume standards that was Rick’s RMR. Now 525,000/2200 Cal/day = 238.6 DAYS of stored energy and if we take 150 lbs/238 days = .63 lbs/day.”
    I don’t understand this…doesn’t RMR have an RQ of .85, approximately half fat/half glucose? If Rick sat on his couch everyday and ate 1100 calories of glucose, wouldn’t he lose about 1/3 pound of fat per day? Isn’t what matters the overall calorie burn for the day ? For example, I know from previous testing that my RMR is 2413. Further, with the use of a Bodymedia, my daily caloric burn is ~4300 without a workout, ~4700 with a kettlebell workout. Now, you’re saying the kettleball is almost all glucose..but what about the difference between 4300 and 2413? I assume it depends on the intensity of the activity, correct? For example, the job I have requires getting up out of a chair 50-60 times a day and walking briefly. When I look at the Bodymedia graph, there are caloric spikes all day long. Getting out of a chair must be fairly intense. But as you point out, exercise isn’t helping you burn fat.
    From the diet side, it seems to optimize fat loss I should just eat ~2150 calories in the form of glucose from fibrous vegetables, fruit, starch and seeds/nuts. I’m a big muscular guy and since most people “hit the wall” after about 1500-2000 calories of glycogen depletion, 2150 should pretty much keep my tank full.

    I noticed in one of your comments you said a person could eat no glucose at all for weeks, but if you pricked their blood, it would register blood sugar. Obviously if it didn’t, they would be dead, lol. You say you’re able to keep your subjects at an RQ of .7 all day without being ketogenic. Does that mean they aren’t using their glycogen stores at all? Or are they just using so much more fat it’s keeping the ratio at .7? By the way, did you read the story about Daniel Craig working out in a freezer before the last James Bond movie?
    Can you get a low RQ 24 hours a day from acute stress, or does it take chronic exposure?
    I enjoyed the videos on the nuts/flavanoids. I assume the l-arginine in nuts promote mitochondrial uncoupling? Would the timing of eating nuts matter? My dad has real issues with staying warm lately, so I’m hoping that will help.
    I’m sure I have a lot of things confused with this post, but love your work and want to support it. Can I donate monthly without going through Paypal?

  93. William Kelly says:

    Hi Ray,

    Found this site looking for weight loss alternatives other than exercise due to chronic arthritis in both knees and ankles. I understand the need to eat less and choose better quality foods. I followed all of your “muscling your metabolism” points.

    So, food choices not withstanding, is inducing mild cold stress really all I need? It is winter where I am, so cooling down is not a problem. How much and is more better? I have not worked up to using the alternating temperature showers, but have essentially been standing outside without a jacket for 10-20 minutes (as long as I could stand). I am cold when I come in. Would two 10 minute sessions be as effective as a 20 minute session, what about multiple sessions spread throughout the day? What about short bursts of cold – the kind where you get a reflexive shiver as say you walk to your car on a cold day?

    Anyway, I wish you would discuss some of the specific methodologies used by the people who have successfully lost fat following your concepts.

    Thanks.

    Bill

    • admin says:

      Thanks Bill

      Winter is basically two fold: calorie scarcity and mild cold stress. Both play a roll in our overall well being. We eat too often, too calorie dense, and too much.

      I’ve seen numerous people fix joint problems simply by changing diet to one that is higher in nutrients and lower in empty calories (sugar, highly refined grains and fat). The high fat/low fat diet ideology is really a huge distraction from our current societal norm of chronic over-nourishment. As well, people have adopted a belief that somehow nutrition is an emergency.

      You should try to eat less calorie dense. One way to achieve that is to double down on vegetables and fruits, while losing the “healthy fats,” olive oil, etc. I eat way more now than I ever did. Unfortunately this gets lost in the eat meat/don’t eat meat distraction. All calorie dense foods are a part of the chronic overnutrition, too include the shakes sold all over the internet.

      Being cold or running marathons can’t alone fix the problem you can’t out exercise your mouth.

      Hope that helps. I’m working on publications and other projects. It’s coming.

      Thanks! Great having you here.

      Ray

      • William Kelly says:

        Hi ray,

        i appreciate your comments and agree with the calorie/nutrition discussion. Could you perhaps provide some specifics with regard to my questions regarding cold stress? Is longer periods of cold stress more effective at stimulating BAT cells or will multiple shorter sessions work? What about intensity of cold. Within common sense safety limits is a short blast of really cold air going to stimulate the same effect as a cool 60 degree (F) 20 minute session?

        I am intrigued by your insights and would really appreciate if you address the practical applications of how to use this biomechanism to ones advantage without pools and cold showers. I’m looking for a discussion on how best to use the naturally provided cold weather.

        Thanks.!

        Bill

  94. Aimee McCarty says:

    Hi Ray,
    Thank you so much for this research that you are doing and the way you present it is amazing.
    Reading your findings and the way you present your thoughts are braingasmic (that’s a word I just made up).
    Via a serendipitous surfing act (I used The Google), I found your writings and I am so glad I did! I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes in 2007. On January 1, 2014 my fasting blood sugar reading was 209 and I cajoled myself into believing I was managing it with diet and exercise (low carb/high protein Ha!). This morning, January 6, it was 154. The nutritional insight you’ve provided has been potent, to say the least. I have to admit that I felt a bit of trepidation leaving my old protein/carbohydrate/fat food model behind – a bit like walking a tight rope but not wanting to leave the safety of the platform. But, I let go of it. I’ve focused on nutrient density and caloric sparcity in my foods and am already seeing the success of adopting the new model you’ve espoused.
    Here’s my question (finally) …I live in Reno, Nevada and it’s pretty darned cold this time of year (20 degrees F in the morning) so I’ve been *chilling* for 2 hours in the morning with the bedroom door open and alternating between covers on and covers off….because…. we’re in a drought and I don’t feel good about taking showers to go between hot and cold. I’ve been doing 20 minutes of cold time with my feet and head covered and 10 minutes of blanket time with my entire body covered, alternating for 2 hours.Given that, would you offer any guidance as to methodology?

    Snap! I almost forgot!!.You’re probably going to say that coconut oil, like olive oil, is verboten, yes?
    Double Snap!! What about Cholula hot sauce??? Is it equally as evil as an oil? It’s the espressed *oil* of a chili and I really LOVE it on my spinach.
    Please know that what you are doing is incredibly insightful and appreciated!
    ~Aimee

    • admin says:

      Aimee

      Great job. It counters what I once thought too. I’ve seen it work on so many people I just stopped debating with people. The truth is going to catch up at some point.

      On hot sauce – just don’t go over on sodium. Looking at my OWN bottle, I see 85 mg/tsp. don’t go nuts. Oils don’t matter in those quantities.

      As for mild cold stress, it can be less aggressive than you are attempting. Just drop the thermostat a little or carry layers instead of wearing. With your diet so fine tuned it won’t matter – you’ll reach goals. You get better far before you get thin – obesity travels with disease it doesn’t cause it.

      Hope that helps!

      Ray

      • Aimee McCarty says:

        Blood sugar was 89 this morning. The first time it’s been under 100 in a looooong time. And, I’m one week in. Thanks again!

      • admin says:

        🙂 just imagine?

        Good news. If you’re on any sort of oral agent be sure to check with doctor. Diet is far more powerful than medication and many that continue meds end up hypo pretty quickly. They often don’t take people completely serious on dietary mods, but if you’re sticking to it they need to monitor and advise.

        Good to hear.

        Ray

  95. wayne fearn says:

    From Dr Garth Davis January 6th 2014

    “For health Low fat is definitely better than low carb in long term. In general, throw all these terms out the window. Don’t even think about macro nutrients. EAT WHOLE FOODS not macro nutrients. Concentrate on natural real foods made by nature. Cut back on meat, load up on fruit, veggies, beans, nuts, and seeds.”

    https://www.facebook.com/drgarth

    Any of that sound old? Perhaps you heard it here first!

  96. Erica Schaefer says:

    It’s been awhile since I’ve been on this blog, but I’ve been reconsidering things and thought I’d refresh my memory. I also found Eat To Live through here some time ago and have been recently reading Super Immunity.

    I have done some cold therm stuff on and off for the last couple years. First hearing it from Ferris and then Kruse. My interest has always been in diet though.

    My problem I’m running into with it is this…
    1) How can someone easily find their RMR? Is it actually accurate to follow any Googled advice using the Benedict or Mufflin equation? I ask because caloric deficit is mentioned non stop here, but I’m not really sure how to know what is a good caloric deficit. I’d rather not starve myself by just randomly picking 1,000kcal a day or something when in actuality I could have been in a deficit at 2,000kcal.

    2) Many people in the comments talk about losing weight easily and though they did the “potato diet” for a couple wks it’s not the long term plan. But, no one really seems to want to say what they actually eat on a normal basis or how many calories they actually eat in a day/what their deficit really is. I don’t know if they aren’t allowed to mention it or something, but I think that would clear up so much confusion. Anyways, I’m fine with just following Eat to Live, but the problem I run into is that I’m really poor right now. Produce is not cheap. I have no interest in long term potato eating only. So, does anyone who has had luck eating this way give me any ideas about what to eat if you had $30-35 a wk to spend on food? Also, any suggestions on things that make starches like potatoes/rice taste decent without adding tons of salt/ketchup(fake food)/soy sauce? I’m not really sure how to cook food to be somewhat palatable without fat or salt making them taste decent. Fruit, salads, juices, and smoothies are no problem in that they taste great to me, but with my tiny budget I know to eat this way I’ll have to eat a decent amount of potatoes/rice to get any calories in much at all and I don’t want to hate my food. (wouldn’t be sustainable)

    I hope someone can suggest something. I know this blog is mainly about CT right now, but over and over it’s mentioned that you can’t outrun/outcold your mouth. Cold I can do.. that’s free and it’s winter where I live, but food is tough when you don’t have much money, produce isn’t cheap, and I don’t want to starve myself (even if I’m going for a deficit).

    Background: I need to lose about 60-70 lbs. Only health problems I know about are bad teeth and slightly elevated blood pressure.

    Thanks for any help. 🙂

  97. Jac Daniels says:

    I’m with Erika. An explanation of diet would be appreciated.

  98. Sean Chan says:

    Thanks Ray for your great work. No wonder my urine ketones is positive only during sleep and my complete-rest days. It disappears in my exercise days. RQ is where the pot of gold lies.

  99. Berndt Bengtsson says:

    Hi. I have 3 questions regarding nuts

    1.) Wouldnt the fat from nuts reduce glucose clearance the same way fat from meat does?
    2.) Nuts contain mostly omega 6, is this not problematic?
    3.) What about the antinutrients in nuts?

  100. Jason Harrison says:

    Hi Ray,

    I’m wondering if you have gathered any RQ data supporting the “potato diet” suggestion that you put out there a few years ago. I know you only meant it as an example for discussion, but a few of your readers tried it and prospered.

    Also, for those who haven’t seen it The mathematics of weight loss | Ruben Meerman | TEDxQUT (edited version) a presentation of how the fat from your body leaves yours body.

  101. […] before I have started. So noodling around the interweb I came across a rather dense but interesting site which challenges a lot of my preconceptions about food, exercise and weight loss. Although I like […]

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