As we wind down this journey, I hope you can clearly see the problem with the very simplistic “molecular biology” approach to our biological systems. More than one time during the last two TEDMED events I heard that this approach is dead. The idea that we can use a reductionist attitude to manage one hormone or one macronutrient and have widespread impact has failed repeatedly.
Sugar and oil (not foods, but refined energy) will probably end up being the exception.
We now know that there are a “symphony of reactions” that happen in our body and it is far more likely that we’ll understand the state equation (i.e. telling time vs how the watch works) and learn to manage these, before we actually understand each individual problem. The solution, I believe, will come down to a simple relationship. Nature seems to always be simplistically beautiful in design.
I’ve put forth a solid case for ignoring “protein, carbohydrates and fat” when designing a meal.
There is undeniable proof that foods such as potato and rice that we’re quick to label, “carbs,” actually have sufficient protein, even complete protein, to provide an adequate amino acid supply when cosumed at the right caloric quantity for your activity levels. At the same time, refined sugars and oils are dominating our food supplies and this might not only create intestinal digestive havoc, it may create severe hormonal imbalance.
Let’s take a look at a real food – something you can easily recognize, like a potato, and think about what happens as we cook, eat, and digest it. I’ll throw a few more examples in as well, but I want it “dumb-simple” to illustrate a point. You can mentally extract to the more complex and I assure you the further you stretch, the less likely it will fit the “truth.” Don’t dispair – you don’t need to understand the complex words to succeed. [Hint: many people “explaining” it to you don’t understand them either. They just sound like they understand. I’m not just casting dispersion, I missed it for a long time as well.]
Taking a Bite of The Mystery
Your kids know the simple story and they are 100% correct. You take a bite, swallow and poop. There you have it. It’s unquestionable.
Up until March 16, 1896 at 10:30 am, food was just that – something we ate to stave hunger and grow. Food was nourishment and a source of “protein” ( back then even rice, potatoes and wheat),” typically, about 12-15% protein was recommended. All foods were assessed for “protein.” There was “cheap protein” and “expensive protein,” but people didn’t equate meat with protein any more than gluten in wheat. It was a time of affordable nourishment as a priority. People were starving.
On that day in March, Wilbur O. Atwater began his now famous calorimetry experiments and fundamentally changed food forever. After locking a Olin Freeman Tower up in a small chamber for 5 days he took measurements of his metabolism. Four days earlier Dr. Tower began eating a fixed “breakfast, dinner, and supper” and continued throughout the 5 days. He exited on March 21 having gained 2 lbs.
He was measuring both the change in temperature and the oxygen consumed/carbon dioxide produced. For the first time – food, mostly meals, had a number. I’ve added current numbers to the actual first day’s meal described:
Breakfast – 849 cal: 3 oz apples – 44, 2 eggs (6 oz) – 282, 5 oz potatoes – 132 2.5 oz bread – 189, 1/3 oz butter – 61 1/5 pint milk – 59, 2/3 pint coffee – 0, 3/4 oz sugar – 82
Dinner – 783 cal: 4.5 oz broiled beef steak meat balls – 240, 4.75 oz potatoes (mashed plain) – 119, 2.5 oz bread – 189 1/3, oz butter – 61, 2 oz milk – 37, 2/5 quart of tea/coffee .75 oz, sugar – 82, 5 oz canned peaches/pears – 55
Supper – 641 cal: 7 oz peaches – 77, 1 pint milk – 293, 1/3 oz sugar – 82, 2.5 oz bread – 189
Total – 2273
Again these are my numbers (incidentally derived using the Atwater factors), but it gives you an idea of how people were eating.
They went on to perform many experiments on how the body digests and absorbs the energy and then assigned “caloric content” of these foods based on experimentally measured averages. Remember, we didn’t know about vitamins and minerals yet – that begins 30 years later. He was simply ascribing a caloric content to protein, carbohydrate, fat and alcohol. The question answered : How did the body react to food when input, waste, heat and composition were precisely measured? Did the laws of thermodynamics apply to people and food?
Eat, swallow, and poop. Now, we have a quantification of energy.
Atwater changed everything we knew about food. He made some groups angry, like the Woman’s Christian Temperance Union, for suggesting alcohol actually had calories, but he defined the notion of digestibility of food based on protein, carbohydrate fat, and alcohol energy content. He had very good goals and unbelievable attention to detail, but he warned that these numbers shouldn’t be used too much outside the bounds of the food combination’s studied.
On the not-so-helpful side of things, he inadvertently launched the now common “macronutrient wars.” With this new data beef and wheat industry could go head to head on “affordable protein.” These battles have raged on for a century and soon food was being ubiquitously labeled with “proteins, carbs and fats” and today, diet dogma abounds on the mythical ratios for health.
We all know the results: we have become fatter and fatter and fatter.
When Atwater began these investigations, we were still trying to validate Lavoisier’s work a century earlier that equated the chemistry of a burning candle and the Human body’s digestion of food. Atwater warned of the excesses in diet:
Unless care is exercised in selecting food, a diet may result which is one-sided or badly balanced that is, one in which either protein or fuel ingredients (carbohydrate and fat) are provided in excess…. The evils of overeating may not be felt at once, but sooner or later they are sure to appear perhaps in an excessive amount of fatty tissue, perhaps in general debility, perhaps in actual disease.
~ Wilbur Olin Atwater 1902
Did you read that? “…protein or fuel ingredients (carbohydrate and fat)…” there’s a powerful message in those few words.
He wasn’t a fan of bread and simple sugars and advocated that more legumes and vegetables be incorporated into the diet. People thought of food very differently then – remember, nourishment. After he died, we learned so much more about the role of vitamins and minerals, but at that time it was much more simple and in some ways, easier to make decisions. When the first food pamphlet (after his death) was published in 1916 – Food For Young Children – Caroline L. Hunt, I’m sure it wouldn’t have met his approval had he been alive. In it, you can see the beginnings of what would be a century dominated by special interest and food political agendas.
His work is still excellent, but so misapplied today in our labeling system it would be laughable if so many people were not falling miserably sick under its guidance. In the little over a century between 1796 and 1900 Lavosier and Atwater made HUGE progress on energy and in the last century we’ve made progress on vitamins and minerals. Sadly, you certainly wouldn’t guess it by listening to “nutritional experts.” I’m embarrassed some times when hearing many nutritionist speak about macronutrients and balanced diet. I’m not sure why a more thorough understanding is not emphasized.
I hope I’ve made a compelling case on turning from this protein, carb and fat dogma, but let’s look at the consequence.
Macronutrient Jabberwocky
How does this information help me eat? It’s simply nonsense.
With all that background I want you to listen to this utter GIBBERISH I stumbled on today. Go ahead, it only takes 3:23 minutes (sorry mobile readers, it’s flash). If you have been keeping up with the Thermogenex blog, I don’t care if you are vegan, paleo, or zoned out, does’t this sound like a saturday night live sketch?
Really, what information was actually communicated in this dialog that was ANY help at all? The sad part is both of these people really are trying to help. They believe they can help and I bet neither of them has any idea how ridiculous this approach is. If you say it over and over at some point it becomes an unquestionable fact and that’s when the drift from truth begins.
Now I got tired of listening to it, but my totals were: “fat” 30x, Protein 1x, and Carb 5x. That in just 203 seconds. That’s a “fat” every 6.7 seconds and the closest they got to mentioning any food were the words “butter” and “meat.”
Why do we talk about food this way? How have we come to the point where natural = good? Poison ivy is natural as is hemlock. The purpose of this rant is for you to listen to this dialog and think about the implications of this approach as we delve a little deeper into the digestive system. Let me tell you what really gives me pause – the one comment (and only at the time of my thermogenex blog post) from carolyn:
Carolyn June 7, 2012 at 12:53 pm I wonder if I have too many fats (specifically, seeds) in my diet. I try to eat some at every meal, usually as a way to get some protein because I don’t eat much meat. So for example, I’ll add half an ounce of sunflower seeds to my shredded wheat and skim milk – keeping an eye to portions so that I stay in my calorie goal. I’ll add an ounce of almonds to my vegetable salad. For a snack, I’ll add half an ounce of sunflower seeds to cottage cheese or yogurt (although I know I get protein from the milk, I like the crunch, and the little bit of fat). I do this just about every day, and I am at a healthy weight. My cholesterol levels are great. So…this is okay, right?
This is what we’ve created and it gives me knots in my stomach (of the Zero-G flavor) that we have taken Wilbur Olin Atwater’s life work and reduced it to such pervasive, unintelligible, and misguided recommendations for people like Carolyn. And before we laugh too much at Kristen and Monica I want you remind you that I talked the same way just a few years ago. The key to weight loss AND health is to start talking about food and not label it with macronutrient names based on a fictional notion that majority present is the most significant factor.
Digestion 101
We know that proteins provide us with Amino Acids and we don’t store the excess ingested. We know that carbohydrate describes a molecule composed.of one or more sugars – the more complex are tied up in long chains called starch. Every cell in the body can (and does) use glucose – that is the primary fuel and a smaller amount (~2000 calories) is stored for immediate withdraw in the liver/skeletal muscle. The rest of excess energy is either “burned” – i.e. the thermic effect of food, or stored as fat in the adipose tissue for later.
When we ingest fat (animal/plant) it too can be used or readily stored. We should touch on alcohol, because it too can be used for energy as the 4th macronutrient. The part I was missing for a long time is how something goes from my fork to say, a new cell to repair the cut on the tip of my finger from these damn plastic packages they have to put around all things “electronic?” [rant withheld].
More importantly, if I have 100 trillion hungry bacterial (10 x me) living in the very place where all of this extraction occurs, what about THIER needs?
We discussed a little about amylase in the saliva, but each of us know that digestion begins with chewing and saliva. When you blend, juice, smash, squash, squeeze, etc…(baby food) you make the food all that more easy to “digest.” It’s basically creating more surface area and rupturing cells so that not only can those 100 trillion beasts get too it, but you can absorb it as well.
It all collects in the stomach where more digestive juices are added and this “food chime” is propelled into the small intestine. There are three sections: duodenum [doo-o-deen-um], jejunum [ja-joo-num], and the ileum [ill-e-num], each providing different digestive functions. This is critical for you to be familiar with conceptually, but it’s optional to “understand.” Just know when to pull the BS flag out if others start into the protein, carb, and fat mantra.
What happens next is cells that line these sections detect, channel, and allow transport of each substance you need, to where it’s needed. Back to our car analogy, it’s basically a fuel or service question. It’s an incredibly complex process, because once something is “detected” your body has to mobilize GI peptides (essentially these are very small chains of amino acids – too small to be called proteins) that signal, and act on your central nervous system to control the body.
At the highest level, they might signal – “hey, I have plenty of food down here, stop eating.”
So for example, if you inject glucose into a pig duodenum just prior to eating, reduction in appetite/ingestion far exceeds the calorie of the of the glucose injection It’s true, even your duodenum has “sweet” receptors (taste) that regulates what you eat/crave, etc…(2-4).Similar mechanism exist for protein (amino acids) and free fatty acids.
In “bypass surgery” (RYGB), the stomach size is reduced, but it is a portion of the small intestine that is actually “bypassed.” Bariatric surgery (I don’t recommend it at all) is not just about reducing the “volume” of food as we all like to think, but perhaps more importantly, the bodies ability to regulate and absorb the food as well.
Food is finally pushed onto the large intestine where water is extracted and waste is concentrated and eliminated.
What do you do with this information? First, I want everyone to realize that “food” and digestion are complex systems. For the most part, everything we have done using reductionist thinking, seems to push the balance. There can be consequences not only in your hormonal balance, but as we see in the make up of the various bacteria concentrations.
If we put aside utilization of excess amino acids (i.e protein components) as a source of “fuel” and see them more closely associated as building blocks of the 25,000 or so different proteins that make up and run your body, then we are left with carbohydrate and fat as two main fuels. I hope you didn’t just think meat, potato and cheese. I am discussing the ingested very pure, broken down, small intestine meaning of these words. Excess soy, gluten and other vegetable proteins are included here.
Every cell mitochondrion in our body can use glucose (half of table sugar disaccharide or derived from starch). As well, every cell mitochondrion in our body can use free fatty acids (beta-oxidation). When the sources of the glucose or FFA is from our own stores (glycogen/adipose) during times of fasting, we don’t involve the gut, but what happens when we ingest these two materials and they are digested?
They Are What YOU Eat.
It’s interesting that two of the top scientific journals, Science and Nature, ran issues June 8 & 14 with Microbiome featured. I want to point out to everyone that this is going to be the future of health, so pay attention to more information on this. As complex as our small intestine is on adsorption (and I left out A LOT of detail), how each of the 100 trillion bacteria process the food we eat and their resulting byproducts is MORE complex and likely more important.
It might sound crazy, but despite what we think our body needs, it might be more wise to eat food that feed the gut first. I was obsessed (can you imagine?) with salt water aquarium and water chemistry in the 80s and had a fabulous water chemistry analytical lab at NASA/Marshall Space Flight Center. I wanted to understand what was going on and we were at the time doing water chemistry as part of development of the Space Station environmental control and life support system. The quest for ALL of us back then was keeping/breeding coral.
It just couldn’t be done.
It’s an interesting that our gut symbiosis isn’t too terribly different than the problem we had with ideas of “filter feeding” corals. We could observe the filter feeding in the wild (eating), but it turned out they live primarily on the sugar byproducts of zooxanthella protozoa. These organisms live as autotrophs on the corals and provide 90+% of energy needs through photosynthesis.
This is strange, so think through it a bit. In the 80s keeping coral was the holy grail of aquaria. We didn’t understand why coral wouldn’t thrive in captivity. We had invertebrate “food” that was made fine particulate nutrients designed to “mimic” what is found in the ocean water of the “filter feeding” coral of the reef. Corals grew in relatively clean, shallow water. They “needed” to be awash with suspended food – not down deep – or so we thought. The secret to keeping coral in captivity turned out to be – light – specifically a blue light of 400-700nm range (peakes at around 450nm).
We wouldn’t have guessed light.
We would have guessed blue (shallow water where coral grows is full spectrum other than red gone the first 15 feet or so). It turns out the photosynthesis of the autotroph drive the show NOT the filter feeding. Now anyone can grow coral – with the right light.
The light Goes Off
Changes of relative abundance of several important taxa during the trial. (a) Bacteroidetes, (b) Firmicutes, (c) Proteobacteria and (d) Bifidobacterium spp. in the DIO and CHO group at 0, 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 and 22 weeks. DIO group: n=9 at weeks 0, 2, 4, 8 and 12; n=8 at weeks 16 and 22; n=7 at week 20. Control group: n=10 at weeks 0, 2, 4, 8 and 12; n=9 at weeks 16, 20 and 22. (source: ISME J. 2012 Apr 12.)
I will end for now (we’ll come back to this AFTER I return to cold therapy a bit in the next post), on what I believe to be the bright line in diet and the microbiome. There have been many reports about the make up of the microbiota in the gut – the relative percentages of the 1000s of bacteria residing there. It makes sense that these too, have a wide range of nutritional needs and evolutionary preference. We know how much our gut is affected with antibiotics that kill the good and the bad bacteria at the same time (eat a little yogurt – yeah, right).
But this paper in April of 2012 by Zhang et al. is incredibly significant. What he did was looked at was the effect of a high fat diet on the distribution of certain bacteria within mouse guts. There are many interesting things about this finding, but it most significant is that the change was reversible.
Looking at the photo, just note that they compared mice starting at the same point and then fed HFD and normal chow (red=HFD, blue=chow). You can see that the relative concentrations change over time as obesity and insulin resistance were induced by the high fat diet (DIO).
When the diet was changed back to normal at 4 weeks, the microbiota migrated back to the normal-fed controls and basically rejoined the group on the age trajectory (there is some change with age too).
I have seen this repeatedly in my own self-experiements with plants/fat. It’s visible in everything from bowel movements, to weight loss. We can observe (and there is much more work than this paper) that in general, that these changes occur. Not only that, but we have identified individual receptors, aryl hydrocarbon receptor (AhR), which line the intestinal wall, that are very specifically activated by cuciferous vegetables (broccoli, cabbage, brussel sprouts, bok choy, etc…)(6).
AhR signaling by cruciferous vegetables can have a huge impact on health and mechanisms for this action are being identified. Source: n engl j med 366;2 nejm.org
What if it matters? What if this symbiosis runs the show? How might we eat differently and manage energy, this tightly controlled thermal dead band of life, with the food we eat and the environment we live in. I am on the way to figuring this out in my life. There will be an indirect calorimeter delivered to my home lab in just a few weeks and I intend on reporting on the results. When I said long ago that this was not just about ice baths, it’s very true. I was forced to really think differently about the entire energy management problem and I appreciate those of you that hung in there for this necessary diversion into food.
There is a lot more coming, but NEXT week, you will read a post on some April calorimeter experiments I did with sleep and cold stress. I know many of you will love that. As well, I’ve been working with many of you that contacted me through this blog and we have some SERIOUS weight loss going on using very easy, simple repackaging of known science. I don’t know all the metabolic details – yet.
Maybe we’ll never know it all, but significant progress is being made and I think all of you would laugh at the idea that this is just “the ice cube diet.”
We’ll come back to food, but for now, this is a good place to pause and get into summer cold stress for those of us in the northern hemisphere. Will be visiting Germany, Austria and Switzerland over the next few weeks if any of you are out there, shoot me an email.
I can’t wait to document this last change – food, cold stress, and exercise using really great instruments. Sorry we got behind on the food blog (recipes and food ARE coming), but it’s been incredibly busy building out the lab and collaborating with some top-notched scientist around the world.
I might be a little slow accessing comments this time, but please feel free to comment.
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I’m on the road and have to fix a few typos. Will do so as soon as I get better bandwidth access. Also, I might be a little slow on comments.
As always, thanks!!!
Ray
you write, “The idea that we can use a reductionist attitude to manage one hormone or one macronutrient and have widespread impact has failed repeatedly.”
I hope i didn’t misunderstand you. I’ve go to ask, didn’t more than 35 years of practice by Michael Eades establish that when he asked his patients to simply throttle back the carbs, all of his patients, without exception, normalized their blood sugar levels in 48 hours or less without medication ?
If you’ve read my past posts, I don’t understand “carbs” as they are applied to diet. Sugars – yes. Starch – no. Increasing starch with the absence of dietary fat improves most conditions blamed on “carbs.”
Moving to a fully secondary substrate (fat) will work, but it has a demonstrated issue on the microbiota. I believe all benefits of dietary fat are associated with mimics of the more natural endogenous fat utilization in times of fat.
So while I understand the success, know that blood sugar can also be completey controlled on a starch-based diet. Clearly starch is a carbohydrate (the real use of the word).
Thanks for the comment!
Ray
now I’m curious. how can blood sugar be completely controlled on a starch-based diet ?
Yes, it seems counter intuitive, but it turns out starch is a very different beast from sugar (sucrose, fructose, honey, agave, etc…). Flooding the body with glucose breaks insulin resistance in the absence of other calorie. So does fasting.
For example, a close friend that was type 2 diabetic for three years with fasting blood sugar >200 mg/dL on insulin a little over 10 days ago switched to a simple starch- only diet (rice & potato only). Within 4 days fasting blood sugar was down to 119 without insulin. Blood pressure was 158/98 and is down to 127/72.
Starch (in the absence of dietary fat) is not sugar, nor does it act like “sugar.” as well blood GLUCOSE is not the problem -it’s a symptom of dietary issues.
Do a self test. I too was surprised. I’m not any more. This is why I believe the “protein carb and fat – speak” is or relavent when it comes to food. The better way to think about food is to forget about those words.
Ray
something told me that if I hung in there and kept reading you I was going to learn something I didn’t know. And now you’ve done it. I feel like I need to start over 🙂
I thought it was going to be simple.
I think I have to go back to the beginning…
Lol! I learn something all the time and honestly, the things I’ve learned recently are so contrary to my old world views, it’s crazy.
What’s interesting is that it make sender now. It’s consistent with what I learned in undergrad/grad biochem. I’m not sure why I didn’t see the inconsistency before.
Perhaps I’m wrong on some of it, but I don’t think it’s far off.
More is coming…
Thanks for keeping an open mind.
Ray.
If I want to try this…and I think I do because I’m somewhat curious how much rice should I eat? Also will white rice work as that is all I have.
White rice cooked in water with nothing else will lower my blood sugar? That is a bit hard to believe…and this is true of someone who is diabetic…insulin resistance. Rice is a bunch of sugar….I don’t get how that even makes sense. If I eat any decent amount of rice my blood sugar has to go up a ton…..if I eat it without fat why wouldn’t it go up unless my body just decides to get rid of all of it through some means…dietary Thermogenesis(correct spelling? autocorrect wants to fail my spelling of that)
Lol
Thanks for your comment. You must define “diabetic,” if you are type 1 then don’t do this. If you are on medication you have to consult with your doctor. There are people here that have gotten off medication by fixing their diet and they didn’t use fat to do it someone want to jump in?
If you are “trending” or pre diabetic and you don’t have serious issues (yet) this would work fine. It’s really more for people that are overweight and think “carbohydrate” is the problem.
Medical disclaimer aside…
In thinking that eventually “Sugar” goes on the list along with Protein, Carbohydrate, Fat, and metabolism as yet another word that people use to obfuscate food and health. Is anyone keeping track? I could do my “seven words you never say on thermogenex website” and give george carlin a run for his money.
Let me see if I know how this works.
We eat starch, a complex carbohydrate and it is broken down by amylase (cleaveage of the 1-4 α glycosidic bond) to form blood glucose and it’s this blood glucose (and the havoc wreaked by resulting release of insulin) that is stored as fat and that’s why we are fat.
Did I get this right?
1.6 billion Asians aren’t wrong and with the exception of the introduction of western diet into their society, they live on sweet potatoes and rice and don’t have weight problems.
You can eat rice if you like. Don’t put fat on it (since you want to test the “blood sugar” hypothesis) and see what happens. Take your blood sugar readings for a few days before you begin. Fasting and before/after meals and then just start eating rice.
Nothing else. No cheating. Two weeks. If you want to do only potatoes >gasp< sweet potatoes, that will work too, but keep in mind these are now officially dubbed "ancestral food," so I'd like you to eat good old-fashion high glycemic white rice. This is manmade, processed food that's really, really bad for you. general note: I don't want anyone quoting that Ray recommends eating white rice. It's not a health food by my measure, but its a valid way to dispel the popular notion that convinces people "carbs" are the the source of their blood sugar issue. They are in fact the symptom. /end note/ Eat when you are hungry, stop when you are full. Anyone want to take bets on this? Btw, Majikza, I'm not trying to sound condescending to you, but this notion everyone has bought into is really fun to play with. People - smart people - are convinced of the the ills of blood glucose and the role of high glycemic "carb" and yet it's so easy to disprove. Should be fun. I'll have some more official ways for you to participate in the not so distant future. Keep us posted. Don't mess up. White rice. That's it. Splash of soy sauce - don't go nuts with sodium when you go through food withdrawal. Just rice. Pretend you're starving on a white rice Island waiting on the ship to reach you. I'm betting you'll get bored. No worries. The ship will be there soon enough. You game? Ok, for all you that have been through my program - lets not turn this into a schooling. Lets see what happens. We all know there's no way to reset leptin or manage blood sugar without eating fat - right? 🙂 Ray
oops i got a typo. I should have written “I’ve got to ask”.
Understood!!!
This blog post has nothing to do with pool chemistry, but I didn’t see a link on the website to e-mail you a question…perhaps I’m being blind…sorry.
I’ve seen you mention that .5 Free Chlorine ..or was it TC..can’t remember is the standard amount Europe uses for their pools with sanitation working just fine at that level.
http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/11/23/water-workouts.aspx?np=true
This article of Mercola’s has a recommendation of not chlorinating the pool and instead shocking once every 5 to 6 days. He doesn’t say how much shock though. Does this sound like a good way to keep the pool sanitized while minimizing Chlorine level. He says that for two days including the day you shock you should avoid, but the water should be good for the rest of the week.
Do you have any recommendations for sites to use to figure out how much chemical to use since the United States standards are bad? I’ve used and read some things on.
http://poolcalculator.com/
http://www.troublefreepool.com/
Are these good resources or is there a better one? I have a 22000 gallon pool and I’m not sure how much shock to use. What’s the ideal amount to use for a once a week shock that will make my pool swimmable for most of the week while not using any tablets etc..
Thanks
Thanks!
Yes, I wrote ANSI pool standards for nearly a decade.
My suggestion is you go to ozonejoes.com and contact them about getting an ozone generator for your pool (tell them Ray sent you – good friends an a great company).
You’ll run your pool ideally 24 hr/day – I would install a variable speed pump (sta-rite/Pentair). Turn off the main drain at the pump if you have a valve and be certain that if you have a drain, it’s cove has been inspected (see the series I did for the US Consumer Product Safety Commission – poolsafely.gov – search for VGB training Videos).
You’ll need about 45 gpm to get an 8 hour turn.
As for chlorination (I haven’t read mercola’s site) shocking and general chorine are two different functions. Chlorine and low levels is not a problem. Either add it manually through liquid/broadcast or put in your chlorination and keep it low. Most people run stabilizer way too high and while it keeps your chlorine level stable (managing a number like we do with blood sugar) it also makes it less effective. At lower levels (.5 ppm) you won’t have difficulty and the ozone will keep your pool fully oxidized.
The reason for shocking a pool is different. The byproduct of chlorine oxidizing an organic substance (proteins, oils lotion etc..) is a new complex: a chloramine and these are the nasty “chlorine” smell you recognize at public pools. It’s excess people (bather load and organic funk) that causes the build up of chloramines and hence the horrendous problems.
You won’t have that because 1) your bather load is small and 2) you’re running ozone that will be oxidizing it 24/7.
You will save a lot if dollars on energy efficiency (google my name and pool energy efficiency for more instruction) if switching to a variable speed pump. They are expensive up front – but you’re pool will look and feel amazing keeping the water moving around the clock. Your pool would be cheaper to run 24/7 than it is now on a timer. Less vacuuming. More debris removal. Better distribution of lower sanitizer.
I run 0 ppm chlorine in my swim spa now and the ozone does a great job. I run water 24/7 and have a 121k BTU heat pump from AquaCal to keep it a wonderful 65F!
Hope that helps.
Ray
What pump speed equates to 45 gpm? My pump has 4 settings its a Hayward 4 speed variable pump. Speed 3 runs 2500 RPM 960 watts. Is gpm something you can convert to RPM or are they unrelated.
I don’t really know pool terminology that well. What do you recommend running the pump on as far as speed when the cleaner is on? It doesn’t seem to go around at all unless its on speed 3.
Also what setting as far as drains is best for when we want to run the cleaner? Its a suction cleaner if that makes a difference. I guess I need to go read on pumps and how they work…maybe even the book that comes with it.
We had someone explain how to run the cleaner and where the the switch for the drain needed to be set for the cleaner, but not sure we are doing it right.
Thanks for the help
I was wondering if you have an opinion on Salt systems or Filters? My brother was thinking about getting a salt system and we probably need either a new cartridge filter or something else in the near future.
I was wanting a Chlorine free system from Ecosmarte which uses oxygen and ionic copper. I’ve read a few places that it does a horrible job of sanitation and harder to keep balanced.
They sell glass-pack filters which are supposed to be easy to use and better than sand offering good filtration. I’m not at all sure whats best though..haven’t quite figured that out. Would love to get your opinion on that if you don’t mind.
Also our pool cleaner doesn’t seem to work as well as when we first got the new pump and I’m thinking it might be the fact we’ve been using chlorine tabs in the skimmers. I just read an article talking about pools that mentioned that Chlorine in a skimmer can cause damage to the pump. I suppose for it to run optimally if that’s the case we might need to get it repaired? Do you think that’s likely the issue?
Thanks
Ray,
Your upcoming lab work sounds exciting.
Can you point me to some dietary advice for improving my Paleo diet? I’ve been Paleo for about 5 Months and have lost 35 lbs. Looking for an improvement to the slope.
Thanks,
Eric
Increase greens – preferably without any fuel source. Limit meat and starch and increase fiber. This is not because we “are/aren’t designed to eat it,” but rather to encourage your body to rely on endogenous fat.
While there is probably some truth to the concept that eating excess dietary fats might result in an increase in fat metabolism, it’s not going to be greater than not ingesting it in the first place. It’s far easier to over consume fat, then starch (provided the two are not combined in a meal).
If you want to be radical and post big numbers, drop meat, butter, oils and any sugar and switch to only brown rice and/or potato for 14 days. Herbs snd spices are fine. You can eat as much as you want, but within a day or so you won’t want it anymore. Don’t eat because it’s “time,” but only whn hungry. Skipping meals is okay. Essentially you’ll reproduce the graph above. Any herb or species are fine, but remember no oils (I.e. fries, chips, etc…).
It will work – 100%. There are more foods that could be used, but this is dumb-simple. If you fail it’s because you cheated. Suffice it to say no liquid calories of any kind.
Let me know how you do. I’ve reproduced it so many times, I know it will work.
Ray.
Interesting. Though I do not lust after this approach I am down to play with it. I will report back.
Yes. Don’t misread what I’m saying, either. I love food and I love to eat. That being said, it’s a relatively new “privilege” to have so many diverse calories to choose from. If one simply wants to go back in human history it doesn’t take far for that to fall away.
So then one can ask a simple question – if I’m so dependent on any particular food that I actually get a fear of its removal, what’s that all about? It’s one thing not to have any interest in the subject, but when people are told that 75% of healthcare costs are nutritional based illnesses, then what does that say about society?
I say experiment a bit.
Ray
Agreed. I am interested in watching the petulant child inside my head pitch fits when told we will now only be eating food for fuel for two weeks.
Lol!
Ray,
When you refer to ‘meat’ is this meant to be generic as in ‘protein’, or simply red meat?
Ron
Ron. Ron. Ron.
What is protein?
I know what meat is.
Basically, the faster you forget the word protein, the better you’ll be able to find healthy foods
🙂
Ray
LOL! After all I’ve read on your blog I should be ashamed of myself. Interesting how quickly the mind goes back to ‘old’ knowledge almost (in my case) without thought.
Ron
Ray,
I’m still wondering. You say “starch in the absence of fat is not a sugar”. And you seem to base it on your experience of folks (yourself included) who eat nothing but starch to the tune of very few calories per day (for example less than 1200 calories). Please explain, how does eating about half of what a body needs daily in calories prove anything about weight loss and blood sugar if the body never gets a chance to act on the metabolic differences between starch and meat (was gonna say “protein” but I cannot remember which words inflame your sensibilities).
I mean if I started feeding a prisoner at Dachau (concentration camp) nothing but 600 calories of Coca Cola every day and noticed his blood sugar wasn’t spiking and he seemed to be very lean, could I crow “this proves you can lose weight without a diet soda” ? I mean could I say this proves anything? Don’t your statements about professed mechanics of sugar to sugar-spike to insulin to fat storage need to also be couched in whether or not the body is getting sufficient calories at the time? I mean how you can talk about the lack of diabetes if the person is starving to death?
Robert
If I said “starch in the absence of fat is not a sugar” it is a typo – I’d like to know where so I can correct it. That sentence sounds like do you walk to work or carry your lunch? I can’t imagine saying it. but I write a lot and make no apologies for mistakes – I correct them. I have said more ridiculous things before.
“Sugar” (on no-say list), can be both a term of biochemistry and a definition of a group of sweet tasting foods/substances. Glucose is not the same (metabolic or otherwise) as fructose (syrups) and sucrose. The obsession with blood sugar and glycemic index (beyond that which is relevant for a type 1 diabetic), is mostly hyperbole. It is another example of over diagnosis. Starvation is not being uncomfortable, because one doesn’t have a meals for a couple of hours or even days. People don’t starve in a day, they go through caloric withdrawal and the symptoms are similar to any withdrawal symptom (headache, lethargy, irritability, lack of focus). That’s not hunger. That’s not starvation.
If the problem we face is chronic over nutrition, what would lead one to think that more nutrition is going to fix it? How many experiments have shown improvements in biomarkers and increased longevity (40-50% in all organisms tested from yeast to mammals) with OVER nutrition? IN fact all caloric restriction experiments yeast through primates have been consistent – oh, except the one that EVERYONE publicized last year as failing to show results (National Institute on Aging). We now know that it’s not calorie restriction alone, but dietary restriction. Even so, the discrepancies were in that there wasn’t as MUCH effect – none I am aware of have shown that excess calories are a benefit, even if you look like a fitness model.
Sugar (sucrose/fructose – in all processed forms) is not a health food and should be restricted. Glucose is only half of sucrose, and not fructose and glucose is completely normal in the blood stream and to vary with meals. Finding sufficient calories aren’t a problem for people that are overweight or obese – we have reserve. That includes many people that are fit. Type 1 diabetics are not “cured” by starvation although their symptoms and need for insulin are greatly reduced on calorically restricted diet. Since you brought up the geusome example of Dachau – I bet everyone one of those people had a glucose reading and they were starving. That their blood glucose doesn’t spike when given a bolus of sucrose in cola (similar to the glucose challenge) means they don’t have diabetes. IF on the other hand people simply remove the oral glucose challenge and then (miraculously) remain blood glucose stable, it doesn’t mean they are “cured.” They have removed the antagonist and this describes the vast number of diet schemes of the “low carb” (ugh) persuasion. Boasting a drop in A1C after a few months without any sources of blood sugar isn’t very impressive. On the other hand, dropping from an 8 to 6-5% eating nothing but high glycemic, starchy foods is an interesting result.
What I get excited about is all the former T2DM people I’ve worked with that don’t have reactions to ingested carbohydrate now, and before their blood sugar was off the charts. I had that problem – it is gone. I can eat sugar (I don’t do it frequently) and it doesn’t cause me to have reactive hypoglycemia later. I have more data, but that’s for another venue and time. Eventually it will make it’s way here.
Ray
I feel like I do when a novel is rapidly coming to its thrilling conclusion…except I know this is just the beginning of a great journey.
Enjoy the Germanic countries and drink the beer, too!
R
Thanks Ron.
It’s really interesting. I see a very clear pathway now and it’s been so helpful to just free myself from a lot of the dogma. I’ve had three years to “think” and fail a lot. That being said there’s been a phenomenal amount of great work – ironically even by people that have hypotheses tha I disagree with!
I’m excited to keep wetting about it and I hope to step up the pace soon on the blogs.
Sitting in Rothenburg this morning sipping coffee and headed to Saldenburg today. An interesting side note – as I visit the grocery stores I see the same junk creeping onto the shelves. As well, there is a noticeable uptick in “chubby” school kids. I see the US 20 years ago.
I certainly hope we can head this off.
Ray
Wow!! Waiting with bated breath for the followup ;).
Hmmmm. Bated breath. What are you trying to catch there, Beth?
Everyone stay on the lookout. Beth’s waiting to pounce!
Thanks!!!
Ray
Hi Ray
You knock every article out of the park. I am interested in the simple experimentation you and others have been using. Care to share a couple? Also, I have worked pretty hard to put on some muscle and would certainly like to keep it as I try to get my body to access its fat stores. So I am curious about the suggesting you made above about rice/potato. No greens either? How does this force the body to use endogenous fat?
Neal
Thanks Neal and THANK YOU for the donation.
I’ll send a few more things to you when I get regular internet access. There is no problem with greens or beans. What I want people to do though, is to reflect on the basics. As I walk around in these cities from the 13-1400s, I can’t help but think about the difference in food from today.
Why do we have to be “entertained” with every meal? Why is every meal a celebration or feast? I suspect a $15 – 50 lb bag of rice from Samsclub (US discount store for international readers) would have been “wealthy” by many standards.
I also like to give people a very simple, can’t get it wrong, place to retreat. If you can’t eat to live for just 2 weeks, what does that say about what’s really driving your meals?
So yes, greens are fine, but if I can legally eat at McDonalds all week, then why not just eat potatoes? It’s really not that bad and during weeks that I’ve self-experimented, I find I get a boat-load more done not worrying with food.
Do I want to live that way? Of course not. Can I do it? Yes. No problem. It’s just like cold water – it simply gets easier to tolerate and winds up being unbelievably refreshing.
Hope that helps.
Ray
“If you can’t eat to live for just 2 weeks, what does that say about what’s really driving your meals?”
That is big. Food lust is massive around the people I mingle with. Few are overweight. I know of one person that views food as fuel. Though she does not eat ‘whole food’ she certainly does not spend time ramping up the taste buds in the kitchen. She is also in shape without much fight on the food end.
I am interested in watching my mind as I play with the next 14 days. Potatoes and Brown rice.
Yes. I think you’ve got it correct. Again, I love to eat, but I’ve done a few things that created a lot of self-awareness over the last few years. It’s really not that difficult.
Ray
Great Post Ray!
It’s time for me to throw my 2 cents in the ring and let people know there actually is hope, thanks to you Ray!
A quick bit about me – I’m morbidly obese and have tried dieting dozens of times. I have tried most of them out there and the story was always the same; I would drop 20-30 lbs, get exhausted, have horrible cravings, and then fail. Then of course, gain back more than when I started. That is a horrible time, being filled with failure.
So, this past January, I started dieting and exercising again, dropped 40 lbs, plateaued, floundered a bit and put 10 lbs. back on. I didn’t want to lose my progress this time, but it was slipping away. I had to find a way! I was desperately thinking about weight loss because I was on the verge of blowing some great weight loss progress AGAIN for the umpteenth time. Then a light bulb went off in the cranium – I should be using cold weather to help me lose weight, that has to work. So I did a google search on cold weather diets and in a roundabout way found Ray’s website (thankfully!!!).
I loved Ray’s work, sent him a very modest donation (that gave me access to his email address) =) I asked Ray for help and it has been extremely positive since the first email. With Ray’s coaching and support, I have lost 27.9 pounds in about 5 weeks time!! Over 5 lbs a week average!!
Think about this, 27.9 pounds AFTER I was down 30 lbs. on my own, where I normally plateau, get frustrated and quit. Ray, you’re on to something huge here and need to get the plan out to others in some fashion (poke). If I knew of this program 10 years ago I am positive I would be skinny today. I now know some of the diet mistakes I was making thanks to Ray. With the right combo of food, cold stress, and exercise, this is almost too easy (after the first few weeks of adjusting of course)…I feel like I’m cheating by avoiding all of the diet NONSENSE that is out there =)
Unlike other diets out there I am succeeding where I normally fail:
1. I past a weight I haven’t seen in 8 years!
2. The cravings/hunger/exhaustion has been in check thanks to some important tweaks (thank you Ray!!!!!).
3. The cold stress has so many benefits it’s unbelievable.
4. Instead of the desire to be stagnant, I now want to move around and get things done. My girlfriend is ecstatic, I’m actually loading and unloading the dishwasher now haha! (some might view this as a negative – poh-tay-toe, poh-tah-doe haha!) I have energy again, there is hope!
I’m down 58 lbs in total now, still have a ways to go, but can’t remember ever feeling so good. There’s hope people! Ray’s on to something here.
Thanks Ray!
Thanks Rick.
I’ll post some of your weight loss data when I get back in a few weeks if that’s okay with you. Rick has a withing’s scale (see amazon store above 🙂 and I really look forward to his weight an a fe others coming straight to my phone! It’s like a daily soap opera.
I’ve been up and down with the last 15 about 4 or 5 times taking data. With the new calorimeter I should be able to take it off for the last time.
Thanks for the post Rick and I can’t WAIT to post those final pics at 180 or so!! Rick is about to drop below 299 for the first time in a while. He hit his first goal of below 309 yesterday.
Incredible and I have such respect for those that have more than 100 to lose. Wow. It’s great to see it happen!!!
Ray.
As of today…rick’s down 6.7 lbs in last 7 days.
Fantastic!!!!
Ray.
Thats huge. Good job Rick!
All this from eating potatos and rice with cold therapy?
Lol.
Well, the potato and rice came up via a comment, but since I’m using the iPhone app, I lost track so long ago I can’t remember how it started. I don’t even know what you replied to!
Here’s the point – calorie dense foods (sugar, oils, highly refined grains, etc…) really complicate people’s perception of food and especially satiety. I like this simple self-experiment, because it’s contrary to what people are taught (carbs and glycemic index).
We’ve talked ourselves into intellectual holes. I was as guilty as the rest. I’m still learning…
Ray
You make it so complicated. Eat less, move more, repeat forever. Hormones play a role and so does the hormones in the gut. Real foods keep me full and certain foods raise or lower hunger levels, which is true. Obesity stems from cheap easily accessible tastiest foods, and people will go for the path of least resistance, its human nature. You have to fight the current pulling you towards where every body else is heading, which is obesity. Care about yourself and make an effort. It’s not easy but it’s achievable.
Agreed, with the exception that I don’t believe exercise (move more) is THE problem. In fact I’m pretty sure it’s a side issue, but I’ll hold some of that until I can dig in more with calorimetry. Btw, I’m not anti-exercise, so I’m not interested in that label. I just don’t think huge/lean stature is requisite for health/longevity and it’s fine for those that want to pursue it.
That being said, many people are attempting, as Robert Lustig points out, to “cognitively inhibit a biological/biochemical process 24/7” and that’s a losing battle. To be controlled the urge must be removed, not inhibited.
If you are successful in that the question we must ask is how to those that are unsuccessful reprogram the urge? Their problem may be a different problem from the one you face every day.
Wouldn’t it be great if the solution were simple and uniform?
As always, thanks Seth!
Ray
It seems complicated because it is. I’ve been trying to lose weight all year. I lost 30 on my own, but couldn’t figure out how to lose the additional 30. I ate much less. I moved much more. And it didn’t make a difference for me. Ray helped me understand what foods were getting in the way, what exercise was doing to my effort, and when to NOT eat to help burn fat. He helped me lose the last 30 pounds. Now I’m hovering below 15% body fat and eating my fill of foods whenever I eat. I’m grateful for the work Ray is doing.
Ray, a ray of light in a world of confusion 🙂 I do not pretend to ‘get’ everything you say, with an artistic mind more than scientific I struggle with the numbers some blogs post and satisfy myself with the concept, but you…you have made it easier AND I love the direction you are going in. I have been Primal for 6 months and to be honest, whilst I appreciate that for overweight individuals it can be a Godsend, for me, a healthy individual, I have seen no discernible benefits. I need to take it up a notch and in a slightly different direction (can’t keep what I’m doing if it doesn’t work can I? that’s the definition of a fool) and this article raises questions again on the direction of understanding.
Pop over to the UK when you get a chance eh? Buy you a beer 🙂
Thank you and as I write I’m sitting at the innstadt on the donau (Danube) having a nice dunkel weiss.
I’m not a big fan of the “primal” concept for food. I think there is a lot of value and I’m beginning to understand why certain things work with this style of eating, but I’m not sure primal = good any more than natural = good. We eat excessive calories (paleo and vegan alike).
I do think that there is a huge metabolic train wreck between starches/sugars and meat/oils, but it has more to do with excessive calorie going into a body that’s fat/glycogen replete. We’ve also learned that each of these foods recruits a different microbiome in a matter of weeks. Historically speaking diets probably didn’t change or were as variable on a daily basis. Seasonality ruled food.
I think one can push dairy, refined sugar/oil aside and then decide whether starch or meat is your “thing.”
It’s not quite that simple, but you should give a few things a try.
Oh, and the beer – ill hold you to it one day. I love old peculiar.
Ray.
Ray, Thank you for a very interesting article, as usual, for answering our questions with more than one word answers! The comments are a wonderful discussion.
I have many questions, but the first ones are: how are people to avoid putting back on the excess fat weight that they take off? Are the only tools thermal loading, dietary changes, and exercise? Or is there something else?
You have discussed your weight gain-loss cycles, and there is the “set point theory”, etc., so I’m wondering if only temporary fat loss is possible (aka your experience with the Body for Life diet), or if the bulk of the fat is burned off and then there is cycling over a much smaller range.
Is the solution to long term health (not-obese, not-starving, biomarkers good, etc), as far as we can tell, to monitor and take action when our objective numbers (body fat%, blood pressure, etc) go out of range? Or is there a more “automatic” diet that lets us pay attention to our urges as they occur?
I assume that modern highly processed foods, refined sugars, etc will always be extremely limited in any healthy diet. Paleo seems to present an “automatic” diet. Dr Fuhrman another “automatic” diet.
-Jason
I probably align closest with Joel Fuhrman. He’s a great guy and has really has a lot of first hand experience. We’ve gotten to know one another fairly well too.
As for set point, the jury’s out still on that. Lots of compelling data both ways. My gut wants a set point,but my brain hesitates. That being said, if there is one I’m sure that seasonal cold stress is part of the resets. It just makes sense that it is.
What I have found (anecdotally) is that I need to lose about 10 lbs more than I want to be “comfortable with” and hold it there for 6 months – preferably through a period of cold stress. It seems when I do it, that point +10 lbs is easy to achieve.
Again, that’s hanging it out there talk and I want to differentiate this from something I feel really positive about. May be wrong on both accounts, but this 10lb number seems to work.
I have a system to manage food, but I’ll save that for a post.
Ray
Ray, if I choose to eat only starches, how much fat should I ingest (as it is supposed to eat some for hormonal balance)?
Don’t worry about it for a while. This idea that any nutrient is days or hours from being deficient is a myth. You’ll be fine. What makes you think the fat on your body is any better/worse than the fat you find in a salmon or pig?
This should make sense. Digest the fat your wear. Wear the fat you eat. If you’re starving (as our ancestors were until the recent past) it probably doesn’t matter what you eat. If you are glycogen/fat depleted all calories help. If you’re not, all calories but glucose can (but don’t always) cause metabolic issues.
Ray
Water is only 13-14 degrees celcius here, will a swimming suit be as productive? or will the benefit be much less? or is there something else i can do so i can swim in that water without any risks 🙂
You couldn’t pick a more perfect temperature in my opinion. That’s exactly the temperature of my pool.
Swim! Make sure to eat a low calorie/high fiber meal 2-4 hours later.
Ray.
ahh really i thought temperature below 15 degrees celcius was to cold for swimming. Dam guess i have no excuse then. How long do you usually swim when temperature is 13 degrees celcius?
Is it best to crawl so your head is in the water or can you do the regular head above water aswell?
Obviously at your own pace. Here’s an interesting experiment for you to try:
– Walk in to half way to your waist (make sure it’s below your stomach and keep hands out).
-You should feel the cold at first. Your feet will feel tight. Stand there. In just 2 mins or so, you’ll feel the cold, but it will fade.
– after you’re comfortable, stick your hands in the water – you will probably start shivering.
– obviously the easiest way is to just jump in, but this is an interesting observation that seems to be universal.
Ray
cool. i like to just jump in 😀
How long do you swim in that kind of temperature? and what kind of swimming?
How many calories does it burn during that time you swim aswell so i know that 😀
I’m going to quantify it more later this summer, so I don’t know. What I do know is that sitting still in 27C water ramps metabolism to 2.4x RMR.
Ray
forgot to ask. Do you use anything in terms of gear? like something on your head or anything?
Will speak more later, but I use a swim tether for resistive swimming. In this case you’re not moving – just swimming in place and using more effort than the real thing. When tethered, hand paddles and fins become tiny parachutes on your feet and hands (you’re not moving) – increasing effort.
I’m new to swimming, so perhaps some more seasoned swimmers can jump in here with workout intervals. The idea is to keep active while staying in a thermally negative environment.
Hope that helps! Let us know what you do.
Ray
Thanx. How long do you “swim” in that temperature? and do you swim with your head down
30-60 minutes? Head down and I use a swim snorkel, because I’m not a great swimmer.
Ray
great, thanx
You say that if I have stored fat in my body, I can use the same for my hormonal balance and there is no need to ingest some. This is very logical. So do you think I can eat only starches till I get close to 7-10 % of bodyfat? You know from our e-mail exchange that I have tried to eat only micronutrients (no energy and macronutrients) for a while and I was pritty close to 10 % bodyfat. But I was looking like a sick man and was very thin. Now I want to try to eat meat or starches only, with the idea to heal my gut. I don’t know what to choose. Maybe starches are the better choice, as the meat nowadays is grained fed.
Alex
There are two different things here. Suggesting that if one simplified their diet to only starch for 2 weeks they can see that it’s not harmful, nor will it drive up the blood sugar.
It will hormonally balance it. You’re not going to be nutritionally deficient in 2 years no more than someone eating a high fat junk food diet is over years. In both cases the body is relatively robust. No, it’s. It perfect, but it’s FAR better thank junk.
I think anyone with blood sugar issues should be surprised when starch, not fats/oils, fixes their problem. I think there is a misconception that we need to eat all nutrients, every day. May have worked out well for the USDA promoting sales, but reality says the body scavenges the things it needs.
I don’t know what level of body fat is healthful. Im not sure lowest is best.
Ray
Hi Ray,
As discussed through email i start my journey today on rice and potato. Starting at 198lbs and I want to reach 168lbs – which takes me back to my early 20’s (i am 35 now).
I love what your doing and will keep you posted on my progress.
I also believe that there is something we are all misunderstanding to do with food because i have yo-yo’d for many years trying out this fad and that.
It is only because of your attention to detail that i follow you and trust that you are on the correct path to unlocking the codex of food to body fuel for good.
Thanks,
Wayne
Should be fun. Like I’ve told a few of you directly, this is just a trick to counter some of the advice out there. I’m not the “eat rice and potato guy,” but I think that you’ll see the progress and it will prove a point.
Obviously, the higher the nutrient/fiber concentration and the lower the calorie, the faster you can lose. Most people aren’t accustomed to eating this way and you might not yet have the taste for kale and Brussel sprouts.
Rice an potatoes are everywhere. But how does it work? It’s pretty easy. Take a guess at your resting metabolism rate (use an online calculator). Let’s say it’s 2200. A 153 gm potato has 110 cal. That means you can eat 20 of those a day to “break even.” that’s a lot of freaking potatoes. I think 1 cup cooked rice is 160 cal. That’s 13 cups of rice.
You might eat 20 potatoes or 13 cups of rice for a day. Maybe 2 or 3, but I’m betting you won’t keep it up. You’ll have the food baby from hell and if you’re not full, you’ll be tired of rice and potatoes.
In reality, you can get by on 3-4 potatoes a day or about the same of rice. In both cases you can run a good deficit while flooding your body with glucose (you know, they stuff they give you as an IV drip in the ICU – not olive oil).
Result – you’ll feel satiated while running a good deficit.
Make sense? Simple?
Ray
Hi Ray
I am not sure if this was asked before but your approach seems to be consistent in some regard(as it relates to freedom from food) to the concept of intermittent fasting. Any thought? These days i find that eating for me is not an event but just something I dog or fuel as you suggest. I tend not to worry about timing necessarily and there are some days of the week I am not hungry and I do not eat. Have friends saying that I am crazy and that my body will go into starvation mode blah blah. But I find my mind is so much clearer when I am not eating!
Hey Ray,
LOVE your blog and the research you are doing. SO interesting and yes, so “opposite” from all that’s out there. I would love to try the potato/rice experiment. Are sweet potatoes included? I’m assuming not. The pathetic part is, I’m not sure I’ll be able to do it, my flesh is weak and going without my iced coffee (decaf) and half & half for 2 weeks will be a challenge for certain. (And I actually wonder why my soon-to-be-47-year-old body has a nice layer of fat over my hard-earned muscle. Duh!) Anyway, in an effort to not be beholden to anything as well as to lose some of this fat (I’m just 7 lbs from where I’d like to be), I’m gonna give it a real try. Thanks! Keep on experimenting!
Sweet potatoes are what I prefer, but weigh one so you get an idea of serving size. In all cases, the goal is to stop when you feel full (or just before).
This can become a retreat. Of all else fails, you can return. I expect BP drops and blood sugar drops after 3-4 days.
Working on a peer-reviewed paper that’s related. Soon you can cite that.
Ray.
Interesting. So if my blood pressure’s already very low and I feel awful when my blood sugar’s low (massive headache, shaky hands, like I could rip someone’s head off), is this “diet” going to make me feel like I’m gonna pass out?
I was referring to those that had abnormally high BG/BP. You’ll be fine.
Ray.
Ray,
I appreciate all the great information. I have been using cold stress for about 6 months now, mostly in the form of swimming in my cold pool. However, over the past month, the temps in AZ have increased, and I have started taking ice baths.
Your definately on to something both with cold stress and the macronutrient myths. Keep the great info coming. I just might try eating potatoes for two weeks. I have tried a paleo diet template but always end up feeling cold and run down. What types of spices can you add to the potaoes and rice to liven it up?
Thanks Simon
Ok. I want you to know that my first thought about cold stress was in Tempe. A friend of mine runs the fireworks show at the Tempe town lake bridge. I was out there and at a pool one evening and got out of the water. Despite it being over 100F I started shivering!!!! It was cooling from rapid evaporation/dry air.
They laughed at me later when I told them. Apparently this is well known in the desert. So if you can swim at night and get out frequently, perhaps you can use it to your advantage – I don’t know, just a guess.
On potatoes. You can put any spice/herb of them. My favorite sweet potato recipe is to toast a tsp or so sesame seeds in a dry pan. Make sure they are gold, no burnt (like marshmallows). Add a little soy sauce, sesame seeds and fresh chives.
Any of the dry mixes for salads (ms dash, etc) work well – just don’t load up on salt or you’ll retain water.
Mostly just rough it a little. It’s just two weeks.
Ray.
That’s awesome about the Tempe, AZ conection to your thoughts on cold stress. My business is located about 3 miles from the Arizona State campus.
One of the benifits I have noticed from cold stress is the ability to be more comfortable in the AZ summer heat. I may be crazy, but I do notice a difference.
Your right its only two weeks, I’ll suck it up and be a man. A little roughin it never hurt anyone!
More than one person notice this paradoxical effect. It seems that tolerances of the extreme are expanded.
Ray
I must chime about using cold packs, that is what first attracted me to your site. I began by making my own antifreeze pack and now apply it up and down my spine in the evenings before going to bed. Maybe a total of 60 minutes. I sleep with only a sheet, and sleep quite soundly.
At 60, I decided to run a mini-Tri in Carlsbad CA, so have been in training for 6 months or so. Last weekend I hit the open seas for the first time in water around 67F, brrrrr! I hurt my foot a few weeks ago, so the Tri is out but looking forward to weekly ocean swims through the Fall.
My point is that that cold pack has been helpful, but not so much in helping with the weight loss. I have been following the 4HB with no appreciable weight loss (not a bad thing) and lots of muscle development. I want to get my body fat under 15% (down from 30% about 14 months ago) and reduce my abdominal fat layer.
So, here I go on the potato-rice-kale diet!
Yes! Ice is amazing for injury. You should be able to lose the weight. As you get closer to ideal, mild cold stress becomes more effective. I don’t have any proof, but it potentially resets the “set point” that the body is regulating around. I suspect tied to winter weight gain/loss.
I’m within 15 lbs of ideal. Ive gained and lost it a few times in the last 2 years taking data. My ideal is 10 lbs less than I though it was when I began.
Cold swims should be fantastic. It’s funny how this comment session/blog turned into a diet fest. The goal was to demonstrate that “protein carb and fat” speak is part of the root problem. Len more on kale if you want faster results. The starch is just there to rapidly satiate.
Ray
So I imagine that adding others starches like beans, carrots, and the like are fine. Tomatoes?
What is your tweaks in regards to temeprature while sleeping?
Can one do something there to burn more calories?
Room temperature? sleeping with or without clothes/duvet etc?
What is your settings and what do you recommend me to try in terms of room temperature and all that stuff
Next post, but it’s got to wait until I get back on the 11th. Don’t have everything with me.
🙂
Ray
dammit, but ok thanx 🙂
Thanks Ray! Another yummy sweet potato add-in is fresh, grated ginger root and cinnamon.
Yes!! Thank you and while your grating fresh ginger – eat a thumb sized piece sliced thin.
Ray
Another for all food is to freeze lemons and grate them onto all foods, makes everything taste so much better.
Ray, you say you are not “eat rice and potato guy” but I think you are not “eat meat only guy”. I think you are not “eat veggies guy”. What kind of guy you are?
Hopefully happy, healthy and long-lived.
Sort of like Michael Polin’s approach – eat food, mostly plants, no much.
When I can get my food site up, I hope to be an advocate for “Healthy living for people that love food.” I’m creating decadent, nutrient dense foods for vegan/paleo and everyone else. These are all foods that can be eaten freely without worry of weight gain.
If I had to identify with one popular “diet regime” it would be Joel Fuhrman.
Is that good enough?
Ray
That is more than enough. I did a quick research on Michael Polin’s approach and Joel Fuhrman. And the most important I have understood is:
1. Eat little.
2. Eat only natural food.
3. A lot of greens.
4. Eat with pleasure.
So I think as long as I eat only veggies (for health), lean meat (for pleasure), potatoes and rice (for energy) and while I am on a calorie deficit, everything will be perfect. Is that right?
I have tried to eat only meat. I have tried to eat only starches. I even tried only veggies. But nothing gives me more pleasure and fullness than eating them all together.
There’s no such thing as “lean meat.” see meat as a “desert” and you’re closer to the truth.
All together is THE problem. Don’t do it. Pick a source of fuel – don’t eat both.
I’ll comment more later on excess nutrients.
Ray
Hello again 🙂
In terms of burning calories and also the after burn effect. What is the best way
1 hour jogging? wich will burn 600 calories for the activity and then also the after burning effect.
The cons of jogging is ofc strain on the knees etc etc
Then i have the option of doing jogging/running in place in water that is 12-14 degrees celcius. So i will be walking out till i have the water up till my neck and just standing there while im doing a jogging/running motion to keep me “warmer”. How long will i have to do that for it to get the same amount of calorie burn as 60 hour jogging? and what will be the after burning effect ?
Excellent series on nutrition. It seems the paleo world is evolving into the kind of eating you have been touting with less emphasis on carbs and more focus on clean sources of food without refined sugar, refined grains, and seed oils. Also noticing all the paleo gurus now seem to be recommending cold water therapy of some sort. I think your forrays onto the paleo blogs opened some eyes!
Can’t wait to read your cold series.
Ok. Well start by not using “carbs” any more. I can’t explain how important this seemingly nit-picked request is.
Moving from processed to real food is a big step. Realizing that dairy, oil and sugar aren’t really food is a second big step. What everyone is not prepared for is the issue of excess protein in the diet (animal or plant based). It too has issues.
I’ll come back to food after a little mild cold stress work. Unfortunately it’s too hard to write a post in europe with my iPhone, so the next one will be after the 11th.
I’m excited by my calorimetry experiments and will be updating everyone on those. Once you can control the weight (caloric/nutrient excess) then the next goal is what optimizes health.
Ray
please, why isn’t dairy really food? I’m ready to be hit with a two-by-four again. I think I can take it.
Uh, because we are past weaning and not goats or cows.
How about a hit between the eyes with a nipple…or an utter as it goes.
🙂
Ray
we’re not tigers either. don’t we find our fuel wherever we want?
If you want to get as big as a cow, drink milk…that’s what my pediatrician said when I reached 16 yrs old. I still enjoy a glass every now and them, but don’t need the cow hormones.
Here’s a great example. I haven’t read the study so I’ll preference with the the USA Today likely got it wrong:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/story/2012-06-27/calories-low-carb-weight-loss/55843134/1
I’ll read the real study when I return.
First question – why not compare 10% carb with 10% fat? Nope, so neither is a low fat diet (it’s low fat by USDA standards – an organization we all trust) if people are eating 40 or 50% fats in their diet, then reducing to 20% might seem reasonable. The problem is that going back to Kurzweil’s 10% solution (90s) it seems that the benefits of low fat aren’t until you go down lower than 20%.
Second – how do you think the high or low “carb” diet would fair if 100% of the “carb” was sugar vs starch? What about if it were 100% fructose (incidentally a sugar of lower glycemic then glucose)?
Do you see why those words confuse everyone? Even researchers? I submit that no one confuses a baked potato for candy bar. Researchers often lump French fries and chips into the “potato” bucket and again this is simply incorrect. As well a potato with butter, sour cream, cheese and bacon bits is supper yummy, but NOT a potato!
We’ll talk about food here.
[rant concluded]
Ray
Hi Ray, please keep up with these! Reading your blog is by far the best education on food/diet/fat loss I’ve ever got. I really appreciate the scientific angle as well.
Maybe it was mentioned somewhere already, but what is your take on the maximum daily fat loss rate? I’ve been reading online and came across a reference to this:
This should play out to 290+/-25 kJ ~= 69.31 kCal / kg or 31.4 kCal / lb of stored fat (disclaimer: not my calculation)
So if I currently have around 9.5 kg of fat, so this would put a daily cap of 660 kCal (and decreasing) on my max loss rate. Seems like getting to sub-10% BF will take a minimum of one month, more like 1.5…
If you look at my data, there has been a considerable lean mass loss as well when I sort of switched to crazy mode regarding diet+cold stress+exercise. Did you find cases where the fat loss rate was much higher than the above? This study was based on reduced food intake and the abstract mentioned that there was considerable variation between subjects, but could it be that a “maintenance level” intake + extra energy output is more effective?
On a lighter note, are you planning a stop in the Netherlands as well on your current European tour by chance? 🙂
Thanks! Great reference. I don’t have the whole paper, but looking at the abstract you’ll note they had “moderate” activity. Clearly if they ran a marathon/day it would be more.
With cold stress you are chronically adding loss every day. These all add up, which is why I prefer cool not cold.
The last mile is the hardest. cold stress and nutrient dense, low fat diets work well for that.
Ray
Ray
Ive read alot about the cold exposure and seems like alot of people claims it doesnt burn that many calories. Also Mikel Phelps 12k calories isnt exactly true either since he was eating 8-10k calories a day in his peak days. Like he says in an interview.
Would be great to hear other peoples results.
I spoke to him in person. Yes, even it’s 8-10k, it’s still not possible with exercise alone. There is a thermal load it’s been measured (not on him) and I put together a pretty good model that fits the data. Unlike what might be posted elsewhere this is not some secret thing he was doing. He too found it humorous.
Note I’ve not (nor does wim) recommend ice baths. I’ve not done the packs either – that’s Tim’s work. I’ve talked a little about cold shower, which has some very interesting hormonal upsides including help with sleep, depression, and peripheral circulation.
I think mild cold stress – longer chronic at higher temps are the way to go. For most it’s simply get back into the pool and be sure not to have a high calorie meal 2-4 hours later when hunger peaks.
Mild cold stress is so well documented in the peer-review literature in the 50-60s anyone that dismisses it, hasn’t read the work or is responding to some of the unbelievable silly things the blogosphere has concocted. I know I’ve been misquoted dozens of times.
Great news is you get it first hand here.
Ray
Ok, thanx alot. Looking forward to your new posts in terms of the calories burned when in water etc and also the sleeping part
I’m on day 3 of eating nothing but potatoes and greens. I’m surprised, its not been bad thus far. I forgot how much I like potatoes, probably won’t after another 11 days. Self experimentation, aint it liberating?
I am on Day 3 as well. I’m not bored with it yet, and I’m not overly hungry.Because I enjoy cooking and eating, it becomes a challenge how to enticingly prepare a spud or rice. So far, doing well.
Ok
Here’s the trick Ron. By day three your hunger should be completely under control. Continue to drink plenty of water (3-4 L) and then only eat when you’re hungry and don’t feel you have to finish.
This may sound crazy, but I literally steamed 5 lbs of potatoes and just got a few out here and there. Eat only until you aren’t hungry. I tried to not focus on the meal or food too much. More like I wanted to get it done and move on. More like using a public restroom – get it done and move on.
Remember, this is not a “way of life” just a two week experiment. Most will see a significant drop in blood pressure and blood sugar if they started high. Of anyone sees good control here where there was a problem, please post. You will also notice a huge satiation effect from these complex starches.
You’ll probably post some great weight loss numbers. You’ll once again be glycogen replete if you’ve been avoiding carbohydrate/starch/sugar. You’re basically flooding the body with glucose, while having just enough protein (yes, complete protein) to remain nitrogen positive.
This will be a place that you can always return to if progress stops. It’s a reset of sorts. I did it originally as a very simple experiment to prove to myself that I wasn’t completely nuts about the protein carb and fat – speak. It’s worked with every person that’s tried it.
Simple.
Ray
Understood! No cravings.
Thanks
Ron
Ray,
I am now on day 7 of the potato experiment. Weight loss has been great and thus far I still love the potato. My brothers, who I work with think I’m crazy, but they are stunned by the weight loss thus far.
One question, I am lethargic, for about and hour, after my mid day and evening meal’s. Does this lethargy eb with time. I would like to continue with the nutrient dense calorie restriced aproach. However, wanting to lay down and take a nap in the afternoon and evening is a bit annoying.
Lol.
It’s pretty interesting and shatters some myths out there. Here’s a question – do you eat because you are hungry midday or because it’s “lunchtime” and that’s what you’re “supposed” to do?
How over weight are you now? My guess would be to try skipping lunch one day all together. Drink plenty of water. Even if you feel a little hungry, just push through.
This is not a nutrient dense diet. Potatoes are okay, but not the same as cruciferous greens. This is really to demonstrate the satiating power of starch/fiber and to purposefully get you thinking about when you are hungry and why you eat. Nothing more than simple self awareness.
As I’ve pointed out several times, this is not ideal, but it does illustrate a simple point. You’re running a caloric deficit while remaining satiated and you’ve switched over to a natural “high fat diet” of thunder thighs and beer belly. Also keep in mind that the microbiota in your gut is on at least a 2 week delay from your eating habits. It will change as a new consistent diet creates a new mix of bacteria.
How are your energy levels outside that window when you are sleepy?
Interesting and thanks for the update.
Ray
I’m 30-35 pounds overweight.
You bring up a good point about eating only when hungry. I could probably skip breakfast and not even eat until lunch. For the past few months I have been eating in a condensed eating window, 6-8 hours. I think I could easily continue this. I’m just concerned I might not be getting enough calories if I did not eat at least 3 times a day.
I’m on to my 6th day, eating about three times a day usually when I feel hungry. I mix in kale or Southern greens with the potatoes, lots of spices with the rice. Yesterday, I gave into a late evening craving and ate a 1/3 cup of roasted sunflower seeds. That was after fasting for 24 hours.
I find my sleep is restless and getting up in the morning is more of a chore…low energy. So I stay in bed another hour trying to book a few more sleep minutes before starting my morning workout.
Otherwise, throughout the day my energy levels are consistant and my mind in clear.
…’mind is clear’ even if writing is not.
R
Don’t eat nuts or you’re defeating the whole purpose of doing this. The point is to not give into cravings – especially fat. That 1/3 of a cup is almost as much as one more potato and yet, since you are fully flooding your body with starch/glucose, none of it was burned. It went directly to adipose tissue. I’ll explain more on this later, but I’d steer clear of these other things until you give yourself the two weeks to “clear the fog.”
Seeds and nuts have their place down the road, but I want you to see what starch/glucose does and bus the de novo lipogenesis/glycemic index myths.
Ray
Exactly. 35 lbs is about 61 days of energy storage. You’re probably not going to blow away if you skip breakfast.
Eat when you’re hungry. Stop when you’re satiated. Don’t eat for entertainment or schedule. That’s the point of doing this (along with starch/GI mentioned elsewhere).
By the third day, you’re hunger should be plummeting. You’re desire to eat should be dropping. Drink lots of water and deal with the boredom…
It’s only 2 weeks.
Ray
above, where you caution about eating nuts, you say “It went directly to adipose tissue”. I’m assuming your saying the fat in the nuts went directly to adipose tissue.
Please help me understand this. I need another 2×4 to the side of my head. I thought the only fat storage happened when a fat cell turned blood sugar into fat (while being triggered with insulin).
Are you saying fat cells can withdraw fat from the blood and store it as fat? If so, what prompts them to do that? And if you’re not saying that, what are you saying?
I’m mostly ears 🙂
Yes. Another myth. I’ll blog more about this after I return from Europe, but it turns out that it’s rather small. What happens with increased carbohydrate input is that the body increases carbohydrate substrate burn through diet induced thermogenesis to get rid of the excess calorie.
There is an an inverse relationship with protein and carbohydrate intake/oxidation (I’m not talking food – the real definition) and there is almost no autoregulatory linkage between fat intake and fat oxidation.
Because the body has a limit to how much protein and carbohydrate (glycogen) it can store it must get rid of excess. Fat is stored in unlimited quantities. Alcohol is both a toxin and an energy source.
What this means is that the order of burn is:
– alcohol
– carbohydrate
– protein
– fat
The auto regulation of these is (in order)
– perfect
– excellent
– good
– poor
I’ll explain in much more detail in a few weeks and even do some direct calorimetry experiments to demonstrate it to everyone (you can follow along at home eating the same thing).
So, if “carbs” were THE problem and potatoes were “carbs” then there should be no way to control blood sugar and lose weight with these alone and yet Rick is now down below 299 (as of yesterday) and had averaged .9 per day for the last 40 days. He’s not not hungry. He has energy and cholesterol, blood sugar and liver enzymes are all in line.
Now, having said that – sugar and fructose (honey, agave, HFCS etc…) are not starches despite being “carbohydrates” by definition of containing a glycosidic linkage. There is a big difference in metabolism.
I know this is confusing, but we’ll iron it out. For now “trust me” when I say that protein carb and fat-speak is worthless unless you’re trying to sound important. Let’s talk food here.
Isn’t it fun that no one confuses what a potato is? When I say leave oils and fats out, people ask about nuts and seeds. When I ask , “is a nut or seed a potato?,” no one is confused. This is a simple two week experiment. If you can’t do this, your addicted to something. It’s not that hard. Just forget it for two stinking weeks and eat.
I assure you as I travel thought all those German castles, there were few workers that complained of they weren’t hungry. If you want to play the game, take two weeks and do it. Weight before and after and take your blood pressure and blood sugar.
How are you after 2 weeks?
Ray
Ray, I understand the point of eating only when hungry but what is the point of eating only potatoes? The most important is to be in a deficit, fast during the day and eat natural foods during the night. I cannot be satiated with 5 lbs of streamed potatoes a day.
Because its a good, simple food that is easy to recognize an not easily confused with a cookie, cupcake or chocolate Sunday.
You flood your body with glucose in the absence of simple sugars and with additional vitamins, minerals, and complete “protein,” while being able to eat ad libitum.
Do the test. See what happens. You may be too lean to see the effect, but
I was bombarded with people that have already dropped 5-7 lbs and are shocked at the simplicity. It seems directly opposed to what we’ve been taught and yet it is reproducible and verified over and over in the peer reviewed literature.
Ray
Hi Ray
I have read several places that MCTs like in coconut N its derivatives are metabolized a lot like carbohydrates ( I know dreaded word. Lol) what are your thoughts on this?
You’re right 🙂
No thoughts. I don’t think that way and believe it ultimately leads to back door ways to rationalize high caloric density. You laugh at the up tick of high fructose corn syrup commercials – it’s natural, and just sugar they say. I disagree.
Will coconut kill you? Of course not. Is it a good idea to highly process it for consumption? Probably as smart as taking perfectly healthy corn and turning it into HFCS.
Eat food.
If you want to chew on the inside of a coconut, it’s fine. Just remember people that had those trees around had to make it last for some time.
Ray
Nowadays it is impossible to eat only real food (inside of a coconut instead of MCT). If we living in a wood or jungle than yes.
Alex
I don’t think they are “perfect food,” I think they are not easily confused with unhealthy non-food (like refined oils and sugars).
We CAN eat anything and the more depleted we are in glycogen or fat, the less harm even the worst calories (like alcohol) will have.
That being said – this is a simple 2 week experiment. Eat rice if you like. Imagine you were living 600 years ago and ha no food. How picky would you be?
Ray
I disagree.
I’m touring Europe and everyone around me is eating CRAP (calorie rich and processed). I’ve enjoyed eating fantastic food – even traditional dishes and managed to eat perfectly healthy for the last 2 weeks.
That being said this entire thread/comments was on the idea of busting a myth about “carbs” and it shows that the microbiota does change in a short time.
Ray
I think that everyone reading your blog and who have read the articles about protein,carbs and fat should already know that everything is food and there is no such thing as c/p/f. Every next comment about are carbs good or bad is a waste of time. I think people who read your blog are not fitnes guys ot 20 years old students. You blog is very specific and scientific based and read by cleaver people. If anyone still doesn’t understand the whole thing about food, than he is not about this blog.
The more important thing is to solve the “problem” with eating only meat or starches in terms of microbiota health. I cannot imagine eat one month only meat and the next month only starches.
Yes. And I’m going to cover food later. For now, this was a good diversion to wrap up the last few months on the macronutrient debacle.
When I return we’ll go a little more in to cold stress. I’ve got some data that’s not been posted yet that is interesting. I’ll begin all my calorimetry work in mid July and we’ll come back to food – especially diet induced thermogenesis, which will have a profound impact, but not in the way it’s been presented in the past.
In the alps. Will be sparse the next few days!
Ray
Ray, I think this will work only for obese people.And it will work not only with potatotes. The effect will be almost the same with eating only chiken or only veggies.I have a few questions.
1. What do you think is better – potatoes from poisoned soil or meat from the backyard?
2. What is more satiated – 5 lbs of potatoes or 2 lbs of potatoes with some coconut or extra virgin oil?
I know potatoes are perfect food, but eating only them and only boiled is not making me satiated. If I am not satiated, I am not happy. If I am not happy I cannot loose weight.
Hi Alex,
My start weight was 198lbs on a diet of veg based foods because i went vegetarian in January.
I thought i was eating well and balanced yet i had a fat mid section and a bloated belly. I have been in discussions with Ray and i have posted here since reading his exploits in Tim Ferriss’s ‘The 4 Hour Body’. I have to be honest and say that Tim’s ‘Slow Card Diet’ did a lot for my strength training and muscle development but very little to my spare fat.
Only recently Ray suggested i try his potato/brown rice plan for 2 weeks (adding some greens after week one). He suggested that this was just self experimentation and the potato/rice had little significance other than a reasonable amount of energy and nutrients and to see how my body reacted to this – the idea being to reset my body, get rid of addict type associations to food and to realize that food is ‘just’ a fuel.
I started and gorged myself on rice and potato as i feared i could not eat enough to feel full so i ate lots just in case.
day1 – 198
day2 – 197
day3 – 194
day4 – 193
day5 – 192
day6 – 190.5
day7 – 190 (today no breakfast haven’t really felt hungry)
day8 – 190
day9 – 189.5
day10 – 188.5 (today)
Now since day 7 my hunger has just dropped through the floor and I am trying to understand my body signals to identify real hunger. When i think im there i eat.
Will i eat this way forever? No i plan to follow Joel Furhams methods (eat to live) or otherwise as Ray’s scientific investigations come up with other answers.
I have cold stressed during this, i haven’t exercised during this, i haven’t changed anything other than what goes into my mouth.
I have been quenching my thirst with water and i drink black coffee (again another habit but also a pick me up) 3-4 times per day.
People think i am nuts but i am dropping weight, trouser sizes and i feel GREAT all from the humble potato/rice.
I hear your argument about sustaining ourselves long term and the fact that short term changes can be made with either just veggies or just protein. That is not what Ray is asking so I put my faith in an ex NASA scientist because i want him to come up with answers that will help to protect me and my young family from everything that is currently professed about nutrition from the so called experts.
Invest in yourself Alex no one else will!!
Wayne
Hi Wayne,
Great results! Do you have any indication of how much of this is water weight and how much actual fat? As I’m down to a tad below 12% bf I can see crazy fluctuations in my weight – when I did a “cheat day” with a few potato based meals two weeks ago, I gained almost 4 pounds (no fat though), but this week it seems it’s dropping 6 lbs back down. I drink at least a gallon of water daily. I wonder what’s the effect of food on water retention.
Attila
Im sure he lost some fat. The idea here is to not only change substrate, but to change his microbiota to those that thrive best in a low-fat regime. The body taps into fat/glycogen stores as necessary. Fat simply melts away when you restrict in this way. It’s not a lifestyle, but more of an experiment to disprove the protein carb and fat- speak.
Promise to do more on this later. I will tell you going back and forth and “cheat days” work for losing weight, but not the best for health. Better to learn to love the things that you can eat ad libitum and succeed.
That is far harder to do, but achievable.
Ray
I am running this test not for weight as much as for fat loss. I have finally got it out of my system that pounds are much of an indicator of value.
On 4HB I dropped about 50 percent body fat using the caliper method of measurement. During this experiment i would like to drop a few more percentage points of belly fat. And, of course i am losing around a pound each day.
Hi Attila,
Havent got a clue!
By looks alone i am dropping fat. I have to say my only measurements are weight by my standard scales in the morning in the same spot.
I dont drink much water just when i am thirsty so maybe 2-4 pints a day plus 3-4 mugs of black coffee.
Very interesting post.
1. How much potatoes and rice did you eat in a day?
2. How were they cooked?
3. Did you loose the bloated belly?
4. Why should we avoid veggies at week one?
1 as much as i needed and need per day. I am 5′ 8″ and used to weigh 198lbs.
2 boiled rice, boiled potatoes usually mashed (but ray told me off for eating baby food;-( I have rice in the day and potato in the evening due to ease. I have jacket spud and i did try dry roast potato but they did nothing for me to be honest.
3 bloated belly all gone:-)
4 Dont know (ask ray – blind faith) but it did help with flavour. I have stuck to spring greens really water sautéed in some onions and garlic either with rice, potato and some dark soy sauce (less salt).
4) – to keep it simple. I say eat greens then it degrades down to whether squash or beans are ok. There are LOTS of things you can eat. The idea is to stop worrying so much and just eat for maintenance for once. If you live to be 80 that’s just .04% of the 4160 weeks of your life and infinitely better than a large number of feet that walked the planet.
Two favorite recipes:
Sweet potato (oven roasted)
Tamari soy sauce
Fresh toasted sesame seeds.
Or
Steamed red potatoes (do about 3-4 lbs at a time)
Rosemary during steam.
salt/pepper at the table.
sorry I havent cold stressed during this !!
Alex
I hear you, and I felt the same way I lasted only 2 days BUT I am not overweight and only want to lose a few lbs. However I think you are confusing the issues, I think what Ray is trying to convey is not a diet per se but a proven point on how the body works, therefore your questions are maybe a moot point? if you cannot eat this way (and I can’t) its no biggie, you just need to understand the underlying premise which is…..
Carbs as a macronutrient are not ‘evil’ … there are varying degrees of carbs with varying degrees of evilness 🙂 just as all Muslims are not terrorists and you would be truly misinformed to think this way (extreme comparison I realise but trying to make a point) so by playing with the common understanding of the evil carb potato in this manner, Ray is demonstrating that of itself, that potato is NOT responsible for weight gain – ergo all Carbs are not ‘evil’
Abigail, that is clear to me from the begining of Ray’s articles. And you are using the word “carbs” in your post. You know there are no carbs, there are starches:) . And of course potato is not responsible for weight gain. Neither meat. Neither bread or cookies. You can eat cookies and not gain weight as long as you are in a cal. deficit. I am on a deficit and I am pretty lean but I still have belly fat. Can you tell me how to remove this belly fat? It is not that simple. It is not only eating rice and potatoes and be in a cal. deficit. There are hormones that have a huge role in this. Testosteron, leptin, cortisol etc. And the way we eat have a huge impact on these important hormones. I wonder if I eat only pot/rice and veggies for a monht, my belly will dissapear. May be I have inflamination from other foods (eggs, nut etc.).
Hey. There are carbs. Starches happen to be acceptable food. But none of that is really relevant to designing a meal.
Like them or not, everyone knows what a potato is and that’s really my point, uh a point. I have lots of points 🙂
Belly fat. That’s all of my research now. It’s unfortunately losing bodyfat. That requires a deficit and you know that you love to eat (at least I’ve gathered over the emails/posts). The problem may be that you can’t achieve the look you want with the food you love to eat. In that case you can be perfectly healthy and fit without having “abs” you desire.
It’s a choice. I can tell you Joel Furhrman has an 8-pack and is surprisingly fit. I’ll hope to have him do a guest post sometime soon. He never diets and his weight has not fluctuated since his 20s. He always eats that way. Always.
Ray
Ray
Thanks!!
…and by not using the word carbs in describing food (with the exception of that necessary for a technical point) the words potato or rice or sugar are far more powerful.
Hopefully some others that had less trouble doing a quick “gut check” will post. I promise that I will post on what I believe to be a overall good diet and right now I’m trying to confirm/deny some other myths and working on another site dedicated to one of my other passions, cooking.
For the most part, breakfast, lunch, dinner, protein, carb, and fat are 6 words that thwart most people reaching their goal. In a world of ubiquitous calorie, we’ve become a little (maybe a lot) spoiled an we tend to over indulge or become too picky.
Mostly people simply eat way too much and too often.
Right now, I’m having a beer in the alps, so as they say in Alabama “why don’t y’all fig-ur it out.”
I really appreciate all the comments and THANK YOU for keeping it all positive and engaging. As we grow in popularity, I’d like to avoid the hole personal attack business I see so frequently.
Ray
And how exactly is eating Joel Furhrman?
Hi Ray,
Great blog. I appreciate what you are doing and look foward to more info on mild cold stress.
My story; lost over 40 lb. Used Dr Furhman [Eat to Live] diet. Exercise Heavy Hands walking and went into pool 10 degrees c for 45 to 60 min per day. The pool was the hardest part.
I am now off of all meds [bp and blood sugar] and am no longer worried with knee pain. I feel great. Imo Furhman has the best diet and will work for most people.
At some point I hope you will weigh in on what is the best exercise and how much etc. My reasearch shows the same confusion as with food.
Thanks for your work
Stan
I just completed day eight of the potato/rice experiment, over the past two days I’ve noticed I am much more aware of my hunger. I have only been eating twice per day, and that has been more than enough. I have lost 11 pounds thus far.
This weekend is going to be a challenge. I am getting together with my extended family for a two day vacation. These vacations are always based around alot of tasty, non potato, foods.
The experience has been enlightning so far.
Ray, thanks again for all of your great work.
Simon
Thanks. That’s great. So here is an idea…only a suggestion. Try to avoid it and press on. If it’s a last supper with your dying grandfather, then disregard. Other than that, just tough it out a bit. Yes, you’ll experience pressure. Often people will want you to join along to assuage their own issues, but just try it.
The reason to get together isn’t to eat – its to interact. You can do that fine without food this one time. Sure Aunt Betty might have that outstanding peach cobbler. Save it for next time.
This is a fundamental issue we have. Every celebration, EVERY one, is centered on food. On my trip, for example, we spend an inordinate amount of time planning and worrying about the next meal. I’m thinking – crap, NONE of you are going to blow away if you skip one, stinking meal. And so it goes.
Thanks for collecting data. Maybe in a few weeks I’ll look at all of it collectively and write a blog.
Ray
Hi, Ray – I thought of you when I read this today:
(from: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-07-current-strategies-obesity.html )
“In addition, the researchers conclude that food restriction alone is not effective in reducing obesity, explaining that although caloric restriction produces weight loss, this process triggers hunger and the body’s natural defense to preserve existing body weight, which leads to a lower resting metabolic rate and notable changes in how the body burns calories. As a result, energy requirements after weight loss can be reduced from 170 to 250 calories for a 10 percent weight loss and from 325 to 480 calories for a 20 percent weight loss. These findings provide insight concerning weight loss plateau and the common occurrence of regaining weight after completing a weight loss regimen.
Recognizing that energy balance is a new concept for to the public, the researchers call for educational efforts and new information tools that will teach Americans about energy balance and how food and physical activity choices affect energy balance.”
I see more failed policies arising from research like this, how about you?
Tim
Thanks! I’ve requested the article and will take a look.
I too have done an exhaustive review of the literature. Here’s what I found (in general) the vast number of these studies are either by survey – many dismissible, because I have a hard time keeping up with what I eat even when trying, and controlled, which are loaded with liquid diet mixes, simple sugars, and highly refined food.
As well I am CONFIDENT one cannot out-exercise your mouth.
You take everything said on this page and then look at the results posted here. By simply cutting out calorie choices – i.e turning off the addiction – one can easily lose weight with no exercise and no hunger.
I’m not opposed to exercise, I just think it’s a throw away argument. As used here and in the medical/diet industry at large. People use it to rationalize a lot of things and the simple truth is we are suffering from ubiquitous calorie. As soon as I bring it up the addict (lizard) brains around me start saying – you are obsessed with food or why live like THAT?
I actually can eat anything. I’m not driven by schedule, macronutrient, or ideology. Health drives me more than anything and there seems to be a great pattern forming.
Once the “monkey is off your back” then the rest is an easy walk. I think it’s interesting. ANYONE can eat potatoes or rice for 2 weeks. TWO WEEKS. If you are fat or sick how could you not give it twice that long?
If it doesn’t work – I’m the fool, not you. There are a lot of other foods you could choose too, but I like these, because they confound fat-centric diets (use your own) as well as glycemic index. I’m not saying other things don’t work, what I’m suggesting is it’s not a calorie came so much as it is controlling “lizard brain.”
Lizard brain is powerful – so much so that even the researchers won’t take it on.
Aristotle said, “it’s the mark of an educated mind to consider the thought without embracing it.” I can’t agree more.
Thanks Tim and to everyone who gave this a real try. If you just brushed it off as “not me” or “I’m above that” you might want to reconsider. Maybe it’s the mental game that keeps you from your goal, not the food choices.
Ray
One of the most wonderful things about this experiment so far is the simplicity.
The self awareness that comes with simplification in a basic area such as eating is substantial. When you do not eat merely for enjoyment, but for calories, it causes you to look at other areas of your life. I am shocked to see all of the additional areas in my life where I am so reactive.
The lizard brain is strong. However, Aristotle figured it out. Maybe I can as well.
I completely agree. I found that, without being obsessive, merely being aware helps me manage it all better.
I was very fortunate to be able to spend full time thinking about this.
As I’ve been traveling in Europe, I see the same trends as the US 20 years ago. I hope they are successful reaching the kids. Whether you’re paleo or vegan, we all seem to be in agreement on excessive refined sugar. Sugar sweetened beverages (sodas, juices, etc…). Excessive dairy is probably a close second when combined with the general caloric excess.
These are all calories that aren’t “counted” (metabolically) and have a significant impact on fundamental metabolism.
How did I get on that rant?
🙂
Ray.
Any other success stories out there with both food and mild cold stress contrast therapy? Any swimmers? I’d like to hear from you.
We are at the 2nd week mark this weekend and I know a few of you started later. Especially interested in anyone that’s kept good records.
Thanks! This has been a good exchange. We should have a new cold stress post up the end of next week.
Ray
Hi Ray
As I mentioned in an earlier post( I think) I am not obese or order weight but wanted to get to a body fat % of 10% or less. I have been trying the cold stress and potato rice experiment and I feel very good. There are times when I am hungry but it quickly goes away. Many times I am only eating once per day because I am not hungry. Anyway, my changes have not been o n a grad scale as maybe others who have a lot more to lose but perceptible in the fitting of my clothes and added definition in my legs due I think to fat loss. I am planning to do two weeks of swimming starting next week a will report back on how that is going.
Additionally I was working with a trainer for the past year. When I told him that I was switching to a vegan diet for a while (oh new development) he was not happy. Told me that it’s not good for body composition and that its not healthy!! Wow!! I did not even respond.
In any case, I will keep you posted on progress. I am down about 6lbs from when I first started.
Neal
Sounds great, Neal. Keep us posted. I too am surprised at just how ideological both sides get. It’s so refreshing having people expanding world views in an open way.
I wish I had all the answers; I know I don’t. What I’m certain of is that a major change has happened in our fundamental relationship with food. What’s more surprising is that this inquiry threatens many. I can’t believe just how much time people spend planning, thinking, and working on a meal.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m not an eat a blueberry CRON extremist (although I love what they are experimenting with), but seriously, with calories EVERYWHERE why does food take up so much of the day?
Thanks for the input.
Ray
I find that being on the potato-rice experiment, I spend more time reading your blog than working with food! ;>}
Over the past year or so following your wonderful blog, I have learned that I know so little. The inquiry here is refreshing and pure, not caught up in the politics and promotion found elsewhere (and with a large dose of respect for each contributor).
At this point in the experiment, I am wondering whether I should go out another week past my goal set point? This would then allow some room for bounceback.
Ron
Thank you!!!! Go one more week. I have a plan for a second experiment next week.
Ray
As I begin my eleventh day, I find myself ‘slow in the brain’ (my wife might agree!) and somewhat lethargic. Actually this has been present for about 3 days.
Some other observations;
1. weight is down a pound/day and is consistent
2. my energy level at the gym is about half and I have an overall weak feeling
3. my attention span is wandering more than usual and that may be attributed to having ‘extra’ time since not much cooking is going on
4. olfactory is heightened. Went to a Padres game last night and was awash in all sorts of luscious smells, and had minor urges to partake…but held my ground
5. I have a desire for something sweet when my body is ready to eat. This is satisfied with sautéd sweet onions with rice or potatoes.
Pushing ahead another week.
Ron
Eat more. You’re likely not taking in enough calories. Brain works on glucose. Also, If you have a blood sugar test kit, check when you are feeling foggy.
Most people stop exercise when doing this just to isolate variables. You’ll have to eat much more as hard as that sounds.
Ray.
My petulant mind went kicking and screaming until finally I wore it out. I was able to start this past Monday (July 4th). I stopped the cold showers (10 by 20 by 10) because I had no baseline for them. However, my room has been consistently at 62 degrees and I am in it 12 hours a day.
My numbers are not with me, but I have several metrics I have been tracking as well as detailed food diary–as if it is hard with eating only two items–and journal entries.
I have felt like Seneca and other stoics with this experiment and like others have stated several ‘ah ha’ moments have struck.
Thus far I have lost 6.8 lbs. Upon completion I will email my data. Though, this could go on for a while as now I am thinking why waste this momentum to go back to what I was doing. I am thinking of adding greens then fish then considering openly what to do after.
I thought I was above being addicted or closed minded toward eating or not eating meat. I was wrong.
This has been eye opening to me.
Lol. Considered yourself banished to Corsica. I’m glad everyone seems to be taking this the correct way. As I’ve discussed frequently, one of the things that impressed me about Tim’s approach was the idea of self experiment. Seth Roberts has also taken this to an interesting place.
I believe that by squelching the diagnosis bias a bit, there’s a lot to be learned by collectively aggregating our N of 1 into a larger pool. If a good group of you will allow me to “conduct” a little, not varying too much, I think we’ll be able to aggregate as well as any. Of course it’s not blind, but in this case, it’s academic – who cares?
Posting big losses for weeks on end is still useful, placebo or not. I’ve got some ideas on what follows this, so it should be interesting. I’m really interested how this works in the last few percent. Don’t underestimate the role if simple contrast therapy. It’s got an advantage. I think you’ll notice better all “well being” (hate subjective descriptions).
Keep us posted. Great job.
Ray
I am very interested in the microbiome. Largely because of serotonin. Measuring such things has proved difficult and I am not convinced that taking a pro-biotic pill makes everything alright.
There has been talk of avoiding fermented foods because of mycotoxins. Which brings me to a problem I have not been able to solve.
What matters most? How does one measure and attribute a value to all these variables that exist with health? Research in health/nutrition/exercise reminds me of my university studies in religion. Most everyone looks at the same data but the conclusions are vastly different. It is frustrating.
Any thoughts on the above?
as for the religious studies, the only masters to follow are the ones you can see with your eyes closed.
and as far as the number of variables about health, they all get very simple if you believe that the cause of disease is basically toxins — toxins in the environment, in your food, in the air you breathe. If you eliminate the toxins from your food, you can actually have greater health than the VAST majority of people, and you can expect to be healthy till the day you die. The only authority I’ve found in this area wrote “Diet for Living without Disease” and “We want to live”. I’ve met several people who became healthy following his diet — and they were terminal before trying his diet. My thoughts (since your asked) are that if his diet can bring someone back from the brink of death, can cure cancer (his track record is very good), then he actually knows how to produce health.
I hope this helps.
I see dead people when I close my eyes. Surely, you are not suggesting…(I joke. And I agree.)
I will check out the book. I never thought much about toxins until Dave Asprey showed up in my twitter feed. He also puts heavy emphasis on it.
My biggest question which was lost in rambling was dealing with the gut. How are people measuring that?
Just finished Day thirteen of the experiment. My statistics are as follows.
Starting Weight 238.8 lbs
Current weight 225.2 lbs
Total weight lost 13.6 lbs
I think I am going to keep experimenting for at least another week.
Had and interesting conversation with my sister in law. She is into fitness, what she thinks is healthy eating, and in good shape. My wife mentioned I was doing the potato experiment. My sister in law maintains you should have protein with every meal, and that you need to eat 5 times a day to keep your metabolism running strong. There are so many philosophies on eating healthy, its mindblowing.
Lol! Great job.
Well there are lots of “opinions” and (trying not to sound arrogant) I’m betting she can’t name the 20 amino acids and all of her information came from fitness “experts.”. Although I’m not a “complete protein” thinker, I’ll use this arbitrary scale (if you’ll research it turns out its related to US foreign policy for controlling food in times of war) to prove a point.
What one finds is contrary to and inevitable with “protein carb fat-speak.”. Yes, the potato has a whopping score of 109 – a complete protein:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2770/2
But the “don’t eat carbs” crowd and “excess protein makes energy burning muscle” crowd won’t let facts get in the way of “beliefs.”
I’m not against meat, but meat=protein. If you eat enough potato to NOT lose (tough, but doable) then you’ll have enough protein, complete protein, to build muscle mass with sufficient biological stress of the muscle (exercise).
You know what a protein is. You know the 10 (technically its only 9) essential/indispensable amino acids required. You know the body grabs what it needs and burns the rest.
How hard is it for anyone that cares to understand to look up on a nutrition table to find out if potato is a source of “complete protein.” Even protein sources, like rice, are limited in the very amino acids linked to metabolic syndrome.
Great job. It was worth this little experiment. 13 lbs on “carbs” imagine that! Our buddy Rick hit 295.3 today. That’s 40.7 since may 23 with only mild cold stress and swimming.
You can’t out-exercise your mouth. Calorie dense foods are THE problem.
Keep us posted!!! Thanks for sticking to it.
Ray
My 2 week experiment:
start 198lbs
current 184.5lbs
difference 13.5lbs
Something is common with around approx 14lb loss in 14 days!!!!! Can you explain why 1lb per day seems to be the norm? I was not obese to start and i have another 14lbs or so to go before i hit my target (based on historical peak performance weight).
ALL FROM THE HUMBLE POTATO AND/OR RICE!!!
Wayne
Raise your hand if you’re surprised!
So apparently there is something going on here. No protein? High glycemic carbs?
How about that. Anyone here see why I’ve been off on a “macronutrient tangent?”
There is a closure with thermogenesis and some of it I understand. Still other parts I want to test for myself.
It’s pretty reproducible. I suspect, based on literature, about 65-70% is fat and the rest water. What’s interesting is it keeps going.
What about measurements? Anyone have an idea of where they lost it?
Thanks Wayne!
Ray
I like the notion it could be 65-70% fat. I began this experiment at about 17% bf using the single caliper method of measurement, with weight of #182.
Today is day 12 and my bf has dropped to 14% and weight of #172.
As for loss, I find my pants are falling off my waist and my thighs are smaller.
Earlier I mentioned my intention was to reset my metabolic set point and drop body fat. So far, so good.
The areas for me are chest, belly and butt.
Reminds me of when i returned to 168lbs a few years ago. There is a diet club called slimming world (not sure if this is a global company) but they had 2 methods of eating – 1 was green choices and 1 was red.
Both choices gave you a points scheme of treats but the fat and sugar had to be kept to a minimum, now on the green choices was all fruits, all veg including potatoes and also rice and pasta were acceptable food choices.
The red was all meats all veg and all fruits again with minimum fat and sugars but you couldn’t have anything such as potato, rice and pasta.
On both choices bread was also kept to minimum.
Now it would seem that i am replicating this to an extent on the green choices of food although my weight loss is easily twice what i saw then.
In my defense i didn’t participate in the diet other than the fact that my wife was and it was easier to eat with her than to eat different from her.
What is your take on this Ray?
Interesting. What you just did is far more simple, but obviously has roofs in the same biology.
I’ll explain more on the blog.
What is fun about this is that it’s so simple any one can follow It.
Simple. Effective,. Reproducible.
Ray
And soooo much cheaper!!!!!
Here in the UK our food bills have probably trippled in the last 10 years with the cheapest foods being the processed muck that unfortunately the majority of us would tend to feed our families with.
The most expensive are fresh produce and meat.
However knowing that with some potato and a few choice veg you can eat like a king for a small percentage of what we ‘think’ we should spend!
This kind of education need to get mainstream and fast, plus it will derail these food company giants that are killing us slowly but surely.
This experiment shows that we can loose weight only on carbs. So the myth about “bad carbs” is crashed. But dont’t think you can eat potatoes 2 months and continue loosing weight. This experiment works not because you are eating potatoes, but because you are on a big calorie deficit and you are not eating refined foods. If you are eating 2500 kk of potatoes a day and burn 2000, you won’t loose weight. And in my opinion, this experiment works only for people over 15-18 % bodyfat. As close as you are at reaching the single digit bodyfat, as close you are to stop burning your fats and the big calorie deficit will works against you. For a lean athlete who is at 8-10 & bodyfat, this experiment won’t work, as long as there is a big deficit.
You’re simply wrong.
In fact the more I read your comment, the more clear to me it becomes of why people are confused. I’m not picking on you (Alex has been a great guy on and offline), but honestly, this construct of diet and the body are way askew from reality. There are MANY fitness gurus out there that would agree with you and I disagree with completely.
First, potatoes aren’t “carbs” they are starches with complete protein, vitamin C and a host of other micronutrients. I’ve spent 4 months trying to get this concept off of my site, because it leads to smart people saying dumb things.
All diets work because you are on a calorie deficit. This one is no different other than complete satiation and paradoxical control of blood sugar with a “high glycemic” food.
You are completely negating the dietary induced thermogenesis and it’s significantly different on mixed substrates vs one.
Rick is now down to 295.3 (yesterday) from a starting point of 236 on May 23rd. He doesn’t eat just potatoes (I don’t recommend that), but he does eat starch every day. He has added lots of cruciferous greens and legumes.
I’ll ask him to post, but this is the diet that most successful human populations survived on (corn, potatoes, wheat and rice). Don’t bash me on wheat as I’m reporting facts, not recommending one eat loads of highly-processed wheat. Survival isn’t optimal and I think more cruciferous greens are definitely the way to go.
As you approach your ideal weight, of course you slow down, but if your system is working you can eat ad libitum and not GAIN. losing is the easy part. It’s NOT GAINING that’s tough. Starches are enormously satiating and way more satiating than simple sugars or fats (the real ones).
The body doesn’t try to “hold onto fat” it uses it when needed. The body balances what it PERCEIVES to be a net loss in energy. The body has no scale or fat meter unlike glycogen, which is capped out with the exception of a rare liver disease when the liver swells uncontrollably replete with excess glycogen.
When fat 10% or 50% the body senses caloric deficit (net loss), because that’s what it does. Look back at my heat experiments in the cups for an example.
I think when one gets to the point that no angle works, it can be the mental game that has to be changed.
Ultimately, my point was to surprise people with a position that counters the popular myth. There are school districts in the US looking to outlaw potatoes. This is ridiculous and it’s a result of the carbohydrate, protein, and fat – speak ubiquitous in nutrition.
Potatoes = food
French fries are not.
Ray
My mistake about “carbs”. I am telling exactly the same, all diets works while you are on a deficit. If someone want to loose weight, he can eat everything but must be on a deficit. If someone want to be healthy, he must eat only natural foods. This doesn’t mean he will loose weight while on a natural food. He still must be on a deficit.Acient people survived on: roots, berries and whild meat.The thermogenesis is a awsome, but you cannot thermogesis your mouth. I can’t understand what I am wrong about?
Perhaps nothing, but in the translation it comes off as skeptical. It was a great comment, because it lets me make more clear a position that is often misunderstood.
No worries! Post some results.
Ray
just to make sure I’m getting the facts — are these folks who are eating the potatoes and rice (and some greens) on a calorie deficit ?
Yes.
Here’s why. A 153 gram potato has 110 calories in it (protein/carbohydrate). It’s also got a ton of fiber. Let’s say a person has a RMR of 2200 calories. That’s 20 potatoes a day to be break even.
If someone eats 5, that’s a 1650 deficit for the day…but there’s more. A large serving of starch when glycogen replete often results a diet induced thermogenesis. It ramps up metabolism to burn off excess calorie. I’ll go into way more detail later.
Suffice it to say its a simple trick to be very satiated and rack up some huge caloric deficit, while flooding the body with glucose.
Ray
a simple “yes” was what I was looking for. So, if they are on a calorie deficit, then Alex’s statement, “So the myth about ‘bad carbs’ is crashed.”, is off-base. The folks who talk “carbs”, and UNDERSTAND the process, realize that carbs cause a blood sugar spike. The insulin comes in and it’s stored as fat. If you’re running a calorie deficit, the fat is then converted to sugar, used up, and then your body has to start consuming itself to make up the deficit. Nothing mysterious. You lose weight.
Eating carbs and coming up with a lowered blood sugar is likewise NOT mysterious; just don’t eat enough of them to satisfy your caloric needs. Your body runs out of sugar really fast when you’re not eating enough of them to maintain your weight. This is not news.
And, Ray, you’ve got to modify your statement that all diets work on a calorie deficit. If I shut off the “starches” and eat 4000 calories of meat a day, I still lose weight. I’ve done it. The “modification” in your statement should be “all diets work on available-calorie deficit”. The meat can’t be turned into fuel fast enough, and my body loses fat. Again, nothing mysterious if you’ve been paying attention to the underlying processes.
Yep feeling full is the key to calorie deficit not starvation and then gorging when your desperate.
I like the idea of acessing body fat by eating starch. I should try DEXA measurements to compare and see what is actually happening. I lift heavy weights 3-4 days a week along with some high intensity interval training. The current dogma is that I am breaking down my protein stores so I need to make sure I replenish them or else my body will canabalize it. Based on one of your previous posts you mentioned the order of fuel source was CHO, protein then fat.
My concern was to retain the muscle while acessing to a larger degree the fat. Seems to me that protein in the starch foods may not be enough based on demand. Would that be a fair statement? I guess I am searching for a good way to get to the 10-12% BF levels( DEXA) that is just as unconventional as getting back to basics as you have so eloquently described.
Neal
Eating 4000 cals of meat is not sustainable, cheap or healthy. You would be bunged up for a month and your poor kidneys would be screaming.
Why and when did people start doing this meat over consumption thing as a normal intake???
The point is your body has stores of fat reserves that most people don’t want yet try to get rid of it by any number of ludicrous methods and at varying costs. What is happening here is we are eating cheap sustainable food sources that have by nature a range of macro and micro nutrients and by doing this we are filling our bellys, creating a deficit (who knows how many calories we actually need???) and getting rid of unessential fat stores.
Fat stores are an evolutionary way of having something for later IF THERE IS NO FOOD. We have tons of the stuff so why do we need to store anything???
Now the question is when we are at our optimum weight and fat % this could be considered normal to the individual so if the individual wanted to increase muscle bulk from then on how do we go about this with out increasing fat storage at the same time.
Then you have to ask what is the muscle increase for?
A manual worker, an athlete or someone who has serious vanity issues!
If you are eating 4000 cals of meat and you burn 3000 cals, you cannot loose weight. You are loosing water and glycogen.
Ray, when I eat little cals I cannot sleap. In fact I sleep but only 5 hours. I usually go to bed at 22:00 and get up at 06:00. The last three days I ate about 500 gr of potatoes with 300-400 gr green veggies and 100 gr. chiken for “desert” like you say. And I go to bed at 22 but wake up at 04:00. In fact I am sleeping very well till 04:00. Then I fall asleep at 06:00 till 07:30. Why is this happening. May be because of the big deficit?
And one more thing. As we know that we need some fat about producing the “power” hormones like testosterone and so on, do you think that if we don’t ingest some dietary fat, our body “takes” from our reserves?
I’m not sure what experiment you’re following, but I distinctly told the people that wanted to give this a try: 1) this is a
Self study and 2) don’t eat anything but rice or potatoes and to eat as much as you need (ad libitum) to satiate.
I never mentioned greens or chicken. Given that the purpose of the post was a change in microbiota when switching substrate, I’m not sure how you rationalized adding a high fat meat source.
The “point” was to stop worrying about eating and just focus on satiating with a nitrogen positive, high glycemic, starch for only 2 weeks. There’s really no way to get confused. If its not potato or rice, don’t eat it. That was intentional, not because it was an ideal diet, but because it won’t kill you. Anyone should be able to do it. Whole societies thrived historically with little more.
Two weeks.
To the best of my knowledge, everyone that did that got similar results.
Headed on a flight from Frankfort to US. Will address other comments when I get back.
Thanks Alex.
Ray
Ray, you can’t understand me. It is very clear to me what is this experiment about. I understand perfectly everything you post, well almost perfectly. I don’t want to do the experiment, because we cannot eat potatoes all the time (yes we can but won’t). I want to change my lifestyle. I want for the rest of my life to eat only real foods – roots, veggies, some meat. These three satiate me very well. So what is the point to do the experiment if I know what will be the result but I won’t stick to this kind of eating after the two weeks past? I know how to change my microbiotia, but this mean I have to eat only meat or only starches. I don’t want that.
Hi Alex,
There is an experiment that Ray has gracefully asked us to replicate and indeed i have. Now the results seem to be very similar for all those who are posting because they are following the same dietary intake as Ray has instructed.
I have said before on this thread that I have a blind faith in a [mad] ex NASA scientist because i want to understand what food is all about and what i can do for my health and the health of my family.
What is so negative about eating this way for two weeks? One it is a psychological tool to reduce our craving for bad things labeled food and two it does act like you have hit the reset switch on your body’s system, a spring clean of sorts.
Now some guys including me are continuing on this path for a little longer (because i don’t want to forgo the gains (or losses even) of what i have done) as we wait with baited breath for the next revaluation from the great guru (tongue firmly in cheek).
I do not want to eat just potatoes or rice until i meet my maker but what i am doing has to far exceed the potential to return to what i was doing before.
Go on have a go at it and drop everything else and replicate the other peoples results because i am sure Ray will come up with the next part very soon. Take a multi-vit and mineral supplement if you are worried about micro nutrients and deficiencies (if your cutting out a life time of processed food you were most definitely deficient anyway).
Get with the program and if you had already tried this perhaps you wouldn’t be such a grumpy sour puss:-)
Its got to change!
http://www.richroll.com/nutrition/slaying-the-protein-myth/
Its gonna kill you!
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/harvards-meat-and-mortality-studies/
I’m not sure…I think MOST of these cohort studies end up being extremely flawed. Like trying to sift through the dumpster at an art studio and pick out art. Not shooting the message, but these are the same kinds of studies that lump potato chips, french fries and sweet potatoes into the same “carb” barrel.
Thanks!
Ray
🙂 Ok I will do the experiment. Just tell me the part with greens and veggies. Why should I avoid them? What about squash,carrots, onion? They are almost like potatoes (roots). What about some fruits, a banana postworkout?
Dude just do what is prescribed and stop with the questions. Questions come after your 2 weeks when things start happening. Eat just to maintain life where and when hungry and forget about taste your a man you can handle bland food!
There is enough starch in you potato or rice for glycogen replacement.
Im sure Ray will elaborate.
I am not talking about glycogen replacement. Rice with swuash,carrots, onion and cucumber satiate me much more than only rice. And satiate is very important from health point. Anyway. I will do the experiment.
Alex
you still aren’t letting go of your “construct” of how the body works. Satiation and Withdraw are too very different ideas. Satiation is NOT the absence of headache, lethargy, or irratability commonly described as being “hungry.” There is no such response. Those are all responses to caloric withdraw – the body’s natural response to MANY chemicals when a physical dependance has occurred through habitual use.
WHat everyone has seen that tries this seriously, is that those symptoms largely disappear on day 2-4. This is similar to what happens on complete water fasts. When one says, “I don’t have the energy” and then compares that against the rational truth: a 140 lbs woman at 10% body fat (super lean), has 14 lbs of body fat for a total of 49,000 calories of stored “energy.” That’s enough “energy” to run 14 marathons.
I really believe that coming to a new self-awareness about hunger/food would be great. You are relatively lean already, as I recall, so perhaps that is part of the issue. We have to wonder at what level of “shredded physique” is really “natural.” Despite the desire to get there, it may turn out that staying there is more unhealthy; I’m not sure.
Hang in there and give it a try. Eat a LOT until those false symptoms of hunger (headache, lethargy, and irritability) vanish.
I just had 107 grams (dry) of rice (mixed several varieties). That’s a LOT of rice when cooked. It’s interesting, because I don’t feel “full,” but rather, no real desire to eat.
Ray
Ray, I have figured out the problem with headache. I have headache, lethargy, or irratability only after a hard workout and little calorie intake.
Please tell how do you eat rice and potato. I cannot imagine to eat only boiled rice with nothing. I have already stopped eating meat and diary (today is my third day). I eat only rice and potatoes, but cooked with some veggies.
As I am already pretty lean but I still have some belly I begin to think that it is really possible to have problems with my microbiotia. 4 years ago there was a period of 5 monhts I haven’t eat meat, but I still couldn’t remove the belly fat. It is more like holding water or may be the best told is “floppy skin”. May be it it genetics I don’t know. I will try the experiment but I don’t want to cut the veggies for now, may be after a week or two.
I also eat only once at night and I am on a big deficit, and my body is trying to “save” the fat.
When you are hungry eat rice, potato or both if you wish.
When you are hungry eat rice, potato or both if you wish.
When you are hungry eat rice, potato or both if you wish.
When you are hungry eat rice, potato or both if you wish.
See the pattern? And im sure you will stay healthy for a two week experiment i have and am probably more healthy than ever.
That will keep you satiated until sundown im sure of it! Oh and dont forget to drink plenty of water too it keeps you hydrated and flushes all that nasty waste and toxins!
Would these experimenters see the similar results on a diet of salt free white-flour crackers and rice cakes?
I ask that in the context of this recently-published hypothesis:
http://dx.doi.org/10.2147/DMSO.S33473
Give it a try. Let us know.
They are both C.R.A.P. foods, typically with added sugars. They aren’t a real “starch” with a mixture of resistant starches, fiber, etc. I know that similar results can be achieved with bread.
I have to read the paper, but from the abstract it’s not much different than what has been done (and ignored by many diet advocates) over the last decade. I’m certain that microbiota composition will be a big part of the solution.
Still dealing with jet lag and catching up with being gone for 3 weeks.
Thanks for posting. I’ll cover this and more in upcoming week or two.
Ray
Having read the paper, it’s inconsistent with dietary induced thermogenesis and what you saw in results from the people here with whole-food starches. There is a lot of good information in it.
The mistake made, and he’s not alone, is how “carbohydrate density” is defined By using an α-glycosidic bond containing molecule (standard and common mistake), the author is negating that the microbiota responds very differently to simple sugars and starches. It also is very dependent on β-glycosidic bond linkages (eg cellulose), which are normally ignored completely by nutrition researchers. As well, what’s contained within the food package is as important for the microbiota as the source of energy (e.g eating corn has no relation to eating high fructose corn syrup). Nevertheless, the author is spot-on with so many of the observations. Perhaps I am reading more into it, than I should, but will continue to look at it.
So while your first assumption/test – pick the worse thing you call “carb” and put that against say, a sweet potato, would be analogous to me saying that the deleterious trans poly unsaturated fat suggests all lipid sources are the same. Both are extreme errors.
I personally think he is getting to the right answer for a slightly wrong reason. I also think I can prove it, but I’ll have to collect the data first.
Thanks for the article!
Ray
Mine was just a rhetorical question to introduce this link to Spreadbury’s paper, which I guessed might be of some interest to you.
…and I tried to turn it into an experiment 🙂 really, sounds interesting. Who knows? I’m willing to bet not that healthy, but you’d probably live to comment on it!
Thanks!!
Ray
I realize that your brief analysis was based on a very quick initial read of the paper, but my understanding of the hypothesis is different from what you have outlined above.
The hypothesis specifically does not indict whole food (aka “cellular”) starches like tubers and traditionally prepared rice. The hypothesis says little or nothing that might conflict with various other ideas like metabolic cascade or induced thermogenesis. Rather the hypothesis is roughly that ingestion of refined starches and acellular sugars can and often does provoke a response from gastric bacteria that is inflammatory and that this response interferes with satiety signaling.
Yes. Agreed.
I think the he’s correct on tubers, etc…and role of simple sugars. Where it is incorrect (my opinion) is that many of the “low fat diets” that did not produce results are due to what was used as a carbohydrate source – simple sugars in the form of liquid dietary supplements. It’s often hard to use a real food starch source, because it throws off protein content. Further low fat of these studies RARELY is in the 10% range; it’s typically 20-30%. So you see protein held constant and then one would like to see the fat/carb percent flipped. That’s not what happens. Low carb is typically down at 10%, but low fat remains up and 20-30%.
It’s everywhere in the literature and adds the exact problem he describes. I can dig deeper by looking at the references cited and the ones not cited. You begin to see a pattern.
Additionally, as demonstrated by several here, dropping fat out does elicit a satiating, rapid weight loss when the carbohydrate is starch, not simple sugar.
There are additional issues with some of the claims made with regard high fat diets (like microbiota changes) where clearly a high starch carbohydrate diet has an advantage over fat.
All in all there are some great ideas to test, but he also is an example of falling prey to protein, carb and fat speak, whereas he gets things correct when talking about “food.”
Will be interesting to follow and I have great papers and soon data that this will be helpful.
Thanks again!!!
Anybody else notice how this potato experiment causes you to lose body fat and libido? Interesting side effect, but well worth it for a short 2 weeks.
I dont know if we can post links, but there have been studies that show the link between dietary fat, cholesterol, and testosterone levels. It is very noticable switching for an Atkins like approach to this one.
Yes…but it’s simply not measured in weeks and you’ll see that there are so many other factors to control for…
I am not saying your body didn’t do a u-turn, but fat is not the answer to everything – even though it creates insatiable cravings and rationalizations.
Think about it. You are suggesting you need something from an animal that they synthesized mostly eating grass. What about your fat factories and microbiome? What about those love handles. There are many different lipids, I agree, but no doubt many people lived off of “staples” like rice, corn and potatoes” for months at a time. Many still do.
You are more likely having lethargy from radically shifting substrate and withdrawing from another than an immediate drop in testosterone.
You SHOULD see a very noticeable change (not unlike the mice) as your microbiota changes to a CHO-rich mix of critters.
Check out my cheerleading comment below 🙂 (all fun and games!)
as always, thanks Carlos.
Ray
Interesting….!
I have not had this side effect and i have been going longer than the two weeks now although i admit to having more colorful veg to support my rice/potato intake.
Any possibility of hormonal changes Ray on this kind of eating?
I’m headed into my 4th week. I test as Low ‘T’ so can’t say much to the libido. However, I am a big lethargic even with the increased consumption Ray recommended. Weight loss has almost stabilized, and I’ve not reached my target. I, too, have added kale and the like.
Ray, does the body’s regulator begin to push back at some point halting weight/fat loss?
Yes, but not as much as everyone thinks. I tested three people this weekend – a mother, father and daughter. The mother/daughter were overweight and the father “could eat anything” without gaining (relatively fit and trim).
Yes, the father had the lowest RMR. It shocked them all.
I’m telling you it isn’t this simple and we are all going to find the root cause of the problem is protein-carb-fat speak. That being said you have to eat an ENORMOUS amount with what you are doing. IF you are not adding ANY FAT (ANY), then the calories must come from somewhere. Your metabolism won’t go to zero and it’s not going to be cut in half.
So the idea of plateau is a little strange most of it is water bounce/hydration changes and little to do with fat. Remember that fat contains an enormous amount of energy. IF you add just little amounts when doing this, it has far more impact than one imagines.
Here is the simple mind test – you’re on an island with nothing to eat and plenty of water. Do you hit a plateau? Now you get JUST enough pure protein powder to remain protein positive each day – an amino acid drip. Do you burn fat? does your metabolism go to zero? how low do you think it can go and keep you warm and functional?
What happens is much different than what people in a world of ubiquitous calorie think. There’s a big difference between a heroin addict transitioning off a 5 year addiction and someone that used it once and didn’t do it again.
The body is far more resilient and lizard brain is quite loud at times. I’m just wondering if we through Carlos in with a screaming lot of 20-something, college cheerleader-types that wanted him NOW, whether that lack of fat would really hold him back?
just sayin…
Ray
Here is a recent NPR story acknowledging what we’re testing, gut microbiota: http://n.pr/PwDYjR
good find!! I told you it was going to explode on the scene. Had no idea both Nature AND Science was going to cover it the same week.
Thanks!
Ray
Carlos and all…
There are a lot of things that can be going on and some of it could be just a normal “withdraw” induced metabolic change. I am about to post a LOT of things on metabolism that are going to burst diet-folklore bubbles – I can assure you. The simplistic “conceptual” chalk board approach to how your body works just falls short of the real deal.
I don’t think that the lack of fat is causing it – don’t forget your body HAS a ton of fat and if it needs it, you can synthesize a lot of different things. It’s like protein, half the amino acids are there and it scavenges half from your food source. In times of plenty, most protein is thrown into the metabolic fire (this stuff is just stacking up everywhere – burn it!). When the diet changes to one without excess, every essential amino acid is coveted and used – even the all the amino acids in proteins your body is done with (like that insulin you make every day).
The body is thrifty and not easily fooled. I will explain more on why this works in detail and I’ve done some really incredible calorimeter work this last week. WOW – now THIS is a mid life crisis device for geeks. I am spending hours under a ridiculous bubble boy hood or in a face mask. I’ve done everything from glucose tabs to Jack Daniels (silver select single barrel 🙂
What is amazing is that my understanding of this has crystalized and things that DIDN’T make sense now do. Potatoes and rice are POOR SOURCES OF ENERGY. They are better sources of protein (especially potato) and this isn’t just me saying it, there is a lot peer reviewed work on the subject. You think you are eating “carbs” and in fact you are not – not in the sense you think of carbs.
Ok, I promise to take a break, get the sleep post up >yawn< and then post some really interesting results on both potatoes AND glucose tablets and Jack Daniels. Thanks for the patience. Being gone for 21 days was a bit of a challenge with iPhone only access. Eat more Carlos - you are more likely suffering from too few calories than too few fat calories. Ray
Here are a couple of questions I am pondering. Some may be rhetorical.
1. I have only been eating when hungry, which is rare. I typically eat like 4-5 potatoes a day. Should I eat when I am not hungry?
2. There reason I mentioned dietary fat is due to the link between it and cholesterol. Since testosterone is derived from cholesterol, wouldn’t a drop in cholesterol eventually lead to a drop in testosterone? If not weeks, I wonder how long it would take to see the beginning effects of this.
3. Are there non-animal sources of cholesterol? How do vegans create testosterone?
4. Is there a chemical difference between dietary fat and fat stores in the body?
Now if we bring your cheerleader story back to Earth with say one much more desirable non-screaming 30-something that wanted me, I can say something held me back and has on more than one occasion since starting this. I agree that that something may not be fat, but could be low calories.
Next time she calls me, I hang up, immediately eat 32 potatoes, and then report back here with results. Thanks Ray.
Great questions! That helps me.
1. I have only been eating when hungry, which is rare. I typically eat like 4-5 potatoes a day. Should I eat when I am not hungry?
So, we are discussing a SEVERELY restricted diet. I eat red, purple, fingerling, etc..potatoes mostly (not large baking potatoes that tend to be dry and no flavor). So a potato is about 140-160 grams (small fist) and 154 g has 110 cal. On this scale you are talking about 440-550 cal diet. Even if you double that, it’s not a lot and I do expect that the 4-5 potatoes satiate well. If you want to test the energy deficit hypothesis on your libido, you can try eating a bit more. You will likely not over eat. Weigh one and report back. Also let me know what kind of potato it is.
2. There reason I mentioned dietary fat is due to the link between it and cholesterol. Since testosterone is derived from cholesterol, wouldn’t a drop in cholesterol eventually lead to a drop in testosterone? If not weeks, I wonder how long it would take to see the beginning effects of this.
We (all animals) synthesize cholesterol for cell membranes – our cell don’t have walls like plants. There is no biological reason to ingest cholesterol. What the body does with ingested cholesterol is debated and depends a lot on how you have “been eating.” You don’t need it and I bet if we checked your cholesterol it wouldn’t be sub 150s right now. You have plenty for cell membranes, testosterone and even vitamin D. You are correct. When you stop ingesting it will drop from the 200s down to the 130-140s after some time.
3. Are there non-animal sources of cholesterol? How do vegans create testosterone?
hmmm… No. Animals are the only source of cholesterol. Not used in plant cell walls (see above). now think about it. You are ingesting a tasty steak from cow grazing on grass (grass fed, not cow-part fed). Where does the COW get the cholesterol? Or the protein? Good question on choleseterol, and the answer is they synthesize it just like you. About 1g/day for a healthy adult. Most of that steak was water and fat. There’s a little protein and a few other stuff that’s along for the ride. All animals get essential amino acids (those not synthesized) from plants, or animals that have eaten plants. Plants MUST synthesize all amino acids and do so using the supplied nitrogen (fertilizer). In nitrogen deficient soil, they don’t grow.
4. Is there a chemical difference between dietary fat and fat stores in the body?
Yes, but if another animal synthesized it, you probably can too. Many get it from intestinal bacteria that create fats far more efficiently that we do (mostly out of resistant starches). Yes we can use and need some dietary fat, but you’re not going to go depleted in 2 weeks to the point of dysfunction.
Ok, Carlos. If she calls, and I am sure she is the mature NFL-type, DON’T hang up and eat potatoes. Give it that real man effort and move before she changes her mind! Seriously, that 140 lb, 10% body fat, 5’9″ screaming hot woman has 14 lbs of fat or 49,000 kcal of energy. That’s enough for 18 marathons or 27-30 days of life. How many calories do you burn exactly?
Feed HER chocolate and it will be metabolically transplanted via some osmosis pathway into your libido deficiency. Whatever you do, don’t give her potatoes.
😛
Ray
I eat russet potatoes, skin and all. They are not much different from potatoe skins you order from a restaurant, well at least that’s what I keep telling myself. They weight around 200g which is around 200 Calories according to calorieking.
I actually like them and dont feel deprived at all. I will force myself to eat them til I am full. This will probably be one per hour or maybe 8-10 daily.
I will try that and see if anything changes.
Just had a big debate with a nutritional specialist, amongst others, who accused me of being blinkered when using this info.
I did ask her to replicate the experiment and gather all the data she was asking me for ( wouldn’t know where to start) but declined (although in her defense she is pregnant).
Hows the next blog coming along Ray, i need more info, plus how would i start working out what was lost in the experiment ie fat, water, muscle tissue, etc. It seems that this is what the nutritional fraternity needs to understand.
There is a stalemate between what is taught and what is true and im sure there is a professor somewhere who can put forth the truth and dampen down the nutritionists who keep our nations fat.
Ignore it… I spent all day with a leading pediatric endocrinologist working on a manuscript for publication. He’s well published on metabolism and we don’t have any differences. Don’t be surprised. As I have said on many occasions, it’s the terms protein, carbs and fats that give them the spin. Those terms, specifically how they are defining them within food, are what leads to wrong conclusions.
Unfortunately, I can’t say more right now, but when you learn the fate of the last two weeks, you will COMPLETELY understand the silence. I have a huge deadline to meet, but I have been chipping away on a couple of blog posts.
Obviously once you complete the two weeks, there are no problems adding as many beans and greens (specifically cruciferous) to your diet. If you need more fuel (and that is VERY debatable now that I have a calorimeter and have measured everything from kettlebells, to biking, to swimming – it simply doesn’t lie and is calibrated several times a day to standard CO2/O2) stick with low fat sources for now and continue to let your microbiota flourish.
The body doesn’t go for gluconeogenesis very quickly and I can tell you that a person now going on 70 days is NOT seeing significant lean mass loss. Protein does not equal meat anymore than carb equals potatoes. This is a SERIOUS, ubiquitous misunderstanding and it does make a difference.
more stuff coming and it will be worth the wait – sorry I am so behind.
Ray
Hi Ray,
Hopefully this didn’t already get covered in the comments which I didn’t read…. Do you care to speculate on the effect that light exposure on humans affects the microbiome? Seems like an area that was a blind spot in many life science fields, like to coral in captivity problem you mentioned, and it would be interesting to see studies similar to the HFD mouse study you posted but just controlling for light exposure.
Best,
jesse
Sorry for the lack of proof reading :), it should read:
Do you care to speculate on the effect that light exposure in humans can have on the human microbiome?
jesse
http://www.naturalnews.com/036715_Human_Microbiome_Project_gut_flora_bacteria.html
someone is on the right track!
My head hurts because people have such different ideas when it comes to having healthy microbiota. Ray has advised to eliminate animal products. However, in the article Wayne posted the author proposes that we should eat animal products to maintain a healthy Microbiome. Which is it, or can it be both?
The thing everyone seems to agree with is to eliminate vegetable oils, sugar and heavily processed food including but not limited to white flour.
I’m confused!
Hi Simon,
That website has it’s own agenda, so it took some existing gut biome project and then tacked on it’s agenda at the bottom as if it was supported by the science. We don’t know if it’s supported by the science yet. That being said, I don’t know if what Ray is doing is supported by the science either. We don’t have the science yet so ultimately we have to make our own decisions as to what makes sense. My agenda is that I believe a robust dietary approach should be as free of science and free of the need for thought and scientific validation as possible. For whatever reason that lands me in a pretty strict paleo box and I’m doing well here.
best,
jesse
hi Simon,
i posted that link because it refers to a large study on microbiota which i didn’t know anything about until Ray mentioned it and then suddenly it seems to be everywhere with regards to health.
personally i stopped eating meat a long time ago but very occasionally i may have some fish.
the reason why i dont eat meat is that loosely all it contains seems to be protein and fat. I can get both of these from nuts and seeds and probably more bio available too. There seems to be too much research reporting the fact that meat is not the best source of food for health and longevity.
all the research on meat is on “cooked” meat. the guys doing the research are convinced (by their doctors) that eating raw meat will kill us. There’s a group up in Seattle that is analyzing the gut flora from folks who have been eating raw meat for 3 years or more — it takes that long for the flora to recover from cooked meat. The research is right about cooked meat. The lipid peroxide from the cooked fat, and the compounds formed by the cooking are bad news. I’m talking toxins here, I’m not discussing the damaged nutrients in cooked meat.
I think it is fat and it’s related to caloric density. I’ll have more data soon…
Ray
Fructose is known to be a dieter’s problem, more on that at: http://holykaw.alltop.com/lots-of-fructose-sets-up-metabolic-trouble
Fructose is known to be a dieter’s problem, more on that at: http://holykaw.alltop.com/lots-of-fructose-sets-up-metabolic-trouble
Ron
All sugar – sucrose, agave, honey… Fall into the same category. Fructose is just the side of the disaccharide that hammers the liver and fogs the brain (taste). Equally important are refined fats/oils that are also energy without the food package.
More soon… Vacation got moved up a week due to a changing school schedule. Kids are first in Ray 3 point ohhh.
Ray
Any women doing this?? (rice & potatoe)If so how r you doing??
I’ve had a dozen or more do it with similar results. I’ll post more after I return next week.
Ray
Yesterday was day 6 for me and I have already lost 7.5lbs!!!
Please post what we should be doing after the 14 days r done when
You get back please!!!
so apparently protein keeps our cells in a ‘go-go’ state and leaves us with damaged cells and DNA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfna7nV7WaM
Michael Mosley has set himself a truly ambitious goal: he wants to live longer, stay younger and lose weight in the bargain. And he wants to make as few changes to his life as possible along the way. He discovers the powerful new science behind the ancient idea of fasting, and he thinks he’s found a way of doing it that still allows him to enjoy his food. Michael tests out the science of fasting on himself – with life-changing results.
So we come back a full circle?
http://www.livestrong.com/article/557830-4-reasons-to-eat-more-calories-and-carbs-at-night/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=09052012
Has anyone seen the latest info from New Scientist? Muscle can keep warm without shivering, it works as an extra system besides brown fat.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22250-muscles-that-do-nothing-can-keep-you-warm-and-thin.html
Thanks Berndt
Was smiling when I approved your comment.
Ray
Hi Berndt,
Yes it is great to finally discover an underlying process ‘much like the idle of your car’ going on inside the muscles linked to a specific protein.
The giant pharma are already rubbing their hands together at the prospect of new drugs to initiate this heat production and help people lose weight while they sit on the couch and eat too much FOOD.
I would love to know the optimum conditions at which they [the muscle cells] energise to induce heat (something Ray has been championing for long time) and ramp up calorific demand.with regards to the minimum effective dose.
I wonder if there is an optimum point of cooling somewhere on the body that would be the trigger for the process to begin other than those points as described in The 4 hr body – Tim Ferriss, according to his own self experimentation.
Having said that who knows what really happens until they start working with humans and stop killing mickey by removing his brown fat and stopping the production of sarcolipin then putting him in the fridge to die 🙁
Wayne
What he said.
🙂
More coming soon guys. You’ll understand the delay…
Ray
I think I’m going to try this potato/rice thing. I used to be a vegetarian and a vegan and I gained the most weight then and became the most unhealthy at that time, but I definitely wasn’t eating only whole foods by any means. I have only lost weight eating paleo as I have no interest in feeling hungry to lose weight. But, I try not to be completely closed minded and this seems like an interesting experiment to try. I still have at least 35 lbs or so to lose.
I will say that when eating strictly “paleo” and going pretty low “carb” (low starch really 😉 after the initial slump I feel great and less and less hungry and therefore I think it’s a natural calorie restriction going on. When I add back in something higher starch like potatoes my weight loss ends and I can even start gaining weight, but the main thing I notice right away is I feel tired after eating.(though I do eat fat with potatoes normally) When I am strictly eating high fat med protein and low carb way I don’t have any slumps in energy. (I know I used fat/carb/protein, but I’m not sure what else to say.. I guess what I actually eat.. fish, beef, broccoli, duck fat, seaweed, and other greens). I haven’t read this entire blog yet, so I may be asking silly questions, but there are some things that don’t make sense to me. Cutting out the need for weight loss. Just focusing on health. Because yes, we all know we are amazingly adaptable and can subsist on very little variety for quite some time. Though from what I’ve read there doesn’t seem to be many (any?) tribes who were vegetarian/vegan by choice. After you are at your desired weight the point of eating is to be healthy (past survival). I’m confused on when you are looking at nutrient density how meat, offal, and fish/shellfish aren’t coming up as the most nutrient dense foods? I’m assuming that you are going to be saying veggies are since you are eating vegan.. though I could be wrong. Also, concerning calorie deficit.. How would you explain Dave Asprey of Bulletproof Exec eating 4000+ calories, no exercise and lost over 100 lbs among other things?
Anyways, besides all that confusion. I had a question for the potato/rice thing.
1. Can I use white rice or must it be brown?
2. Can I use balsamic vinegar on the potatoes? (dry potatoes are gross to me so I’m trying to come up with something that’s not a fat to put on them if possible)
Thanks 🙂
Erica
Thank Erica
I am basing my journey on biology. While there is a small gathering of papers out there that support the “meat first” theory, there are many, many more that don’t. I am not interested in getting into the debate, as I am grateful for ANYONE that is taking an active role in their eating and not shoving ad libitum C.R.A.P. For the last couple of months, I have been doing a LOT of calorimeter experiments and what I am finding very much supports the body of information from the last 130 years that clearly defines “protein carbohydrates and fats” and their metabolic role. As you will find reading the rest of the blog, I am NOT an advocate of those three words at all. Any food that can be adequately described by those, is not really food and you shouldn’t eat it with any regularity or quantity (e.g. sugar, oil, etc..)
Nutrient Density is very simply vitamins and minerals per calorie. Most foods in the animal world come up short because of the extreme caloric density of fat. I can explain thermodynamically why someone that eats paleo (like Dave Asprey) gets the weight results he gets and we’ll see down the road where that leads health wise. I am working on a few publications that will make my hypothesis clear. One must take into account not only the biology of your body, but also of the 90% of the metabolism that is NOT your body – the microbiome in your gut. There is a lot we have learned in the last few years about the sub taxa that of bacteria that metabolizes fat. Vegetable or animal, it’s not that great.
As for the restriction of unprocessed starches, like rice and potatoes, and then adding them back, I am not surprised. Every time you restrict glucose in your diet you cause a cascade of metabolic issues related to glycogen, insulin, and leptin. What is interesting is that potatoes in particular are a poor source of energy (80 kcal/100grm) unless FRIED or added fat (573 kcal/100gr). The body has a very specific way to metabolize all macronutrients and I am doing my own set of experiments here to verify what I have read.
I now have dozens that have done EXTREMELY well on just starches. We’ve seen Type 2 diabetes fade, weight melt off, and energy level like never before. As well, it also matches very well the 130 years of peer review literature that seem to be pretty clear.
If you want to give it a try, go ahead. you WILL feel a little sleeping/bloated because of the way you have been eating, but you will be fine after. I don’t care if it is white or brown (brown is better), and any potatoes are preferred over rice and fine – yellows, golden, purple, fingerlings and sweet. balsamic vinegar is okay, but try to not make this into a food party the first two weeks. You are trying to redefine your relationship with food. Eat when you are hungry – you won’t over eat.
Keep data and daily records!
Thanks for dropping by and keep us posted.
Ray
Thanks for the quick reply Ray. 🙂
I admit I am definitely not a science person. I do read A LOT of peoples blogs, but I definitely don’t understand everything. After my years of vegetarian then vegan and dabbling in raw veganism I then started reading Mark Sissons work which pushed me to try it. Lasted about a month, but was hard for me to stick to. Read more while just eating whatever at that point. Then Aug 2011 I started back on paleo. Only with more limited dairy. At this point I was kind of mixing Tim Ferris’ work with Mark’s and I think Robb’s. Then I found Dr. Harris’ blog. He seems similar in approach to you excluding the paleo/vegan part. I lost about 20 lbs by Dec., but had plateaued hard for a few months. Then I found Dr. Kruse’s stuff and started that in Feb. That broke my plateau through April. But, I’m really strapped for money so paleo is somewhat difficult with meat being more expensive. So for the last month or two I’ve eaten whatever again. Gained some weight back too which sucks. Then last night I found your stuff. 🙂
I have no issue changing my ways of eating. Though my initial goal is to lose the weight I need. It’s not my main goal. I would prefer to find a diet that is actually healthy and satiating. I have found so far that animal fats is the most satiating to me. Cuts all my sugar cravings (my weakness) when I eat a decent amount without any sugars. When I eat paleo I eat very little in the way of oils. Cut most if not all sugars. But, I have never tried just starches (potatoes/rice) so who knows.. I’m down to try it.
I definitely think that our gut bacteria are more important than we previously thought. Part of what doesn’t make sense with Dave Asprey’s stuff to me is his stance against fermented food. In that area I do read Seth Roberts stuff. Speaking of that I guess my main confusion is not that I think “carbs” are bad or that we need tons of protein. It’s more the lack of saturated and fully available Omega 3 fats that concerns me. I know our brains need glucose to work, but it seems they also might need more fat than we have been given them. At least it seems to be the conclusion of Dave Asprey (tracking his brain function with his bulletproof coffee ect) and Seth Roberts (tracking his better brain function with butter or pork fat.
Anyways, I don’t completely understand the science behind it all so it is a little hard and trial and error for people like me. I figure even if I don’t know for sure what the “best” most “nutrient dense” food to eat is yet I can still finish my weight loss trying this potato thing. Specially since it’s so cheap. Very helpful for me at this time.
I will say that I do only eat when I’m hungry already. That isn’t an issue. I finally quit my snacking ways when I started eating on Dr. Kruse’s plan. Though I wouldn’t say I wasn’t hungry when I was snacking eating a SAD, but I could have waited until meal time. I do enjoy food, but I can easily eat the same things over and over every day as long as I don’t have a constant gnawing hunger.
For now I can only track weight and measurements, but I will keep everyone updated. 🙂
Oh, and vegetarians and vegans gain weight from refined sugars and oils – organic “agave” is still just high fructose “agave” syrup. I always laugh when people in these circles get all righteous about high fructose corn syrup and then proceed to melt like “butter” over agave. Olive oil is refined fat from olives. Both are energy without the food package. Oreos are “vegan” – big deal. Vegan is mostly an ideology and does not necessarily define healthy eating.
Fat and Potatoes (or rice) don’t mix, so don’t do it.
Ray
Hi Erica,
I was one of the dozen experimenters months ago.
I weighed this morning and was 182.5lbs. I have been this weight for months now after doing the experiment and dropping 13lbs (I think) in two weeks.
I truly believe that it does some kind of system reset. I don’t eat meat and haven’t done since January and I avoid dairy (I do have a little goats or sheep’s cheese according to the meal but only once a month) and try to eat as far as practical high nutrient/calorie foods.
I eat lots of leafy salad leaves, loads of fresh fruit/veg, potatoes, rice, legumes, seeds (chia, flax, hemp, pumpkin, sesame), nuts (raw – walnut, almond, cashew, pistachio), oats, whole earth peanut butter, etc. I occasionally have corn or wheat tortillas for chilli or fajitas, nann bread or chapatti with Indian meals and possible a sandwich if the occasion calls for it. Perhaps bottle or two of red wine over the weekend and maybe some 70-85% cocoa chocolate.
I have perhaps on 3 occasions since let my hair down for an evening and eaten a vegetarian meal in a restaurant which could include fried potatoes but I return to my way the next day.
I cook 95% of the family meals and don’t add oils; I do use salt, pepper, spices, herbs, soy sauce and hot sauce. I tend to take my inspiration from elite endurance runners.
For exercise I run maybe 3miles twice a week and if possible I attend a local crossfit class but this is only a recent development to gain muscle definition and yes I clock up more than enough (perhaps too much) protein from my daily intake which can often be about 70g a day.
I do try and have protein free low calorie days at least once within a 2 week period but that is me following another trail of research (see vid posted on fasting above).
You need to wipe the slate clean and pick one thing with regards to your eating plan and style because not only are you confusing your head but you are confusing your body and as Ray has suggested jumping between diets is causing your weight issues.
Have a go its only 2 weeks!!!
I have got almost the same effect of the two weeks potatoe eating without removing the meat and veggies. For the last month I eat only ones at evining. A lot of rice or patotoe, some meet (no more than 100 gr.) and some broccoli for taste. The whole thing with the potatoe only eating is not to say that meat is bad, but to change microbiotia and heal the body from the refined food we are eating. With the whole day fasting I helped my body to clean and at the evenings I ate potatoes or rice till I was full and at the end, just a little meat for dessert as Ray says. I have tried eating only potatoes fo 2-3 days, but the tought of eating only one thing fo the next 15 days makes me angry.
Has anyone lost strenght on going vegetarian? I eat mostly paleo and suffer occassionaly from what Brad Pilon calls protein anxiety, worried that i am eating too little protein.
I have tried just upping the calories instead of the protein after strenght training and have not noticed any negative results but i would never dare going vegetarian.
Where do cows, rhinoceros, gorillas, giraffes, or any of the meat you eat (I’m assuming you don’t eat cats, dogs or wolves) get their protein?
There is “protein” in every living organism – plant, animal or bacteria. Where do you get the ten essential amino acids is a fair question. Those ALL come from the same place for ALL animals (carnivores, herbivores or omnivores) – plants fix nitrogen and we eat the plants or animals that ate the plants.
There is no such thing as a “drive to eat protein.” protein deficiency does not manifest itself in “weakness.” any craving you have is simply an acquired appetite (learned behavior) for meat. I’m not condemning it, just pointing out the fact. I’m not an advocate of excessive workouts while losing weight. It puts the body in an interesting quagmire – does it burn reserves or grow? Those are hormonally at odds and from a pure energetic perspective, you can’t out exercise your mouth.
Take some time to go back and read the archives on the silly things “protein carb and fat – speak” make otherwise brilliant people say.
Thanks for the comments! Keep us posted.
Ray
Yes i will take some more time reading the theory!
Suffice to say that just reducing the protein without noticing any negative effects has been an improvement for my digestion and also a nice break from a slightly anxious mindset where I often worried about my daily protein intake.
Berndt,
I have gotten stronger on a vegetarian diet. Been on it several months now, pretty low cal to note, and once I replace my shot of cream in my coffee, I will be 100% vegan. Looking at trying rice milk this week, picked some up yesterday. I actually want the label “vegan” once I’m a chisled stud, still a ways to go with weight loss but my progress so far is making people scratch their head and think. =)
To be blunt (no offense at all), protein anxiety sounds more like food addiction. Take it from me, my food addictions try to creep in occassionally.
In addition, I used to be the biggest meat eater alive. No lie, meat at least 3 times a day and never thought I could live without it – honest. If you give it two weeks, things will change.
-Rick
Eat carbs and you inhibit fat burning.
http://garysmilerturner.blogspot.co.uk/
This is a uk guy training for a 40mile ultra run. His main source of fuel is meat and dairy, however his nutritional information dismisses what we guys have done here with the potato/rice experiment and many of the ultramarathon runners who have turned to vegatables to support their nutritional requirements.
Thanks Wayne.
I hope what makes my approach refreshing is I’m not trying to convert anyone to anything; rather I’m seeking truth in food.
Nutritionism has failed. We don’t need to reduce everything down to a single macronutrient, vitamin or mineral. There are a constellation of needs – 90% of which are bacteria that live on/in our bodies.
As I’ve demonstrated in the past blogs for those that have been following, protein, carbohydrates and fat are a myth not in that they don’t exist, but that consciously “managing” them somehow brings “health.” The truth is we need a handful of amino acids and some energy. There are loads of other organic materials that are critical to repairs/function; some we know and some we don’t.
There’s no denying that we mostly exist in a state of chronic OVER-nutrition. This has been at the center of this summer’s intensive work (which is being published now).
I guess I want everyone welcome here. There’s benefit to mild cold stress and several different methods of restricting calories – or at least the absorption/storage of those infested. some are much more healthful (my opinion, but not religion).
I now am confident that the body works VERY differently than what is described in the popular diet industry and many nutritionists/RDs. That’s why the success rate for metabolic syndrome and other chronic disease is abysmal. It’s the reason recidivism rates with weight loss are so poor. My goal was to find out why and the contradictions you are pointing out leads to the answer.
My apologies for such and extended hiatus. It will be worth it and many will be helped.
Rick (above) is now down >80 lbs since the end of may and 110 since Jan 2012. He’ll likely end the year at 185 and began at 366 – with NO exercise. I’ll get into the details of what he’s doing at a later date.
I have dozens down 25-30 lbs in as little as 35 days. Most importantly, through accurate calorimetry and fat measurements (bodpod), I’ve been able to peer into how it happens and why.
There is a very simple formula and I want it scrutinized by some of the best scientists in the world. I want to find the errors, but I don’t see them.
Btw, if anyone out there is a simple press whiz and wants to assist in moderating forum, please contact me directly.
Thanks for the comments and mostly for everyone keeping the discussions and debates so civil. It’s great getting to know many of you as we watch this a unfold. I wouldn’t have solved it without some very tough questions here – so everyone following and commenting gets a piece of this insight.
Ray
“Eat carbs and you inhibit fat burning”
Btw – it’s absolutely true and irrelevant. The mistake is discussing “carbs” in the first place. When you guys see how simple this is, you’ll be laughing.
How did we miss it when so many scientist over the last century got it perfectly correct?
It’s an interesting history lesson.
Ray
Cant weight i mean wait Ray.
Its the cure of cures that was never a cure!?!?!?!?!
What are all other ultramarathon runners eating to support their energy requirements, meat or potatoes?
Good question!
The ones that have been successful enough to write a book tend to be vegan.
Any ultra runners posting here?
1. I am loving the opportunity to watch all this good progress. Can everyone who is doing the starches experiment please post an update?
2. Ray, you mentioned that Rick lost with no exercise, but earlier Ibelieve you said he swims. Should we categorize this as mild cold stress instead of exercise?
Good job everybody!
Thanks.
I hope all of you have data submitted on the online form too. For protocol call it “Mr Potato” head… Or ms.
Rick does mild cold stress both in some open water swimming and contrast showers. I recently “allowed” him to do 4 minutes of kettlebell. Overall my warning for him (starting with 180 lbs to lose) is to not burden himself with lots of exercise). As time went on his DESIRE to move really kicked in. Still I’m not going to reconsider until he’s under 220 and then limit it.
I hope to post some results and some data I collected soon.
Ray.
Ray,
We are all anxiously awaiting your research. I was blown away with my results when I tried the potato experiment, lost 14 pounds in the two weeks. I continue to use the cold, and caloric restriction with potatos, and have lost another 8 pounds.
It sounds as if you are onto something big.
You have given us some substantial tools to help us improve our health. I appreciate your kindness in writing this blog, anxiously awaiting your new info.
Thanks,
Simon
Thanks!
There’s beauty in contradictions. There’s always something to learn with them too. I think the surprising part (for me) was that it appears to work on the last few pounds as well as the first 100!
Ray
I want to try this again. Before, I stopped because I had a problem eating enough calories from just potatoes. I was getting about 4-5 200g russett potatoes down a day and was lethargic because of this. I forgot all about rice. I figure I can get more of that down.
I used to eat these 90 sec brown Ready Rice microwave packets from Uncle Ben. http://www.unclebens.com/Product/Detail?p_id=120
Are those ok? The ingredients seem pretty natural.
Hi Carlos,
This was mt preferred intake. I had Tilda (maybe only available in the uk) brown basmati rice in a microwave pouch. It did contain some palm oil but i guess that was to stop the rice sticking.
Swapping rice and potatoes for convenience still allowed me to achieve a 13-14lb loss in the 14 days.
Plus i started adding spring onions, sesame seeds and soy sauce to EVERYTHING for extra flavour!!!
Wayne Fearn, how much do you weight now?Everybody says it is unbelievable how much weight they loose when they eat only potatoes. But if you weight 250 lbs and you have been eating craps all life,it is not something unusual to feel good on potatoes only. For me (I weight 170 LBS) eating only potatoes doesn’t work (except healing my microbiota).I think weight loss is not only cal in/cal out.Hormones have much to do with it.Cortisol, leptin and insulin resistance are a key factor.
After you heal your microbiota, what are you going to eat?Are you going to eat the same way as now?
hi alex,
a previous post
wayne fearn says:
September 11, 2012 at 7:36 pm
Hi Erica,
I was one of the dozen experimenters months ago.
I weighed this morning and was 182.5lbs. I have been this weight for months now after doing the experiment and dropping 13lbs (I think) in two weeks.
I truly believe that it does some kind of system reset. I don’t eat meat and haven’t done since January and I avoid dairy (I do have a little goats or sheep’s cheese according to the meal but only once a month) and try to eat as far as practical high nutrient/calorie foods.
I eat lots of leafy salad leaves, loads of fresh fruit/veg, potatoes, rice, legumes, seeds (chia, flax, hemp, pumpkin, sesame), nuts (raw – walnut, almond, cashew, pistachio), oats, whole earth peanut butter, etc. I occasionally have corn or wheat tortillas for chilli or fajitas, nann bread or chapatti with Indian meals and possible a sandwich if the occasion calls for it. Perhaps bottle or two of red wine over the weekend and maybe some 70-85% cocoa chocolate.
I have perhaps on 3 occasions since let my hair down for an evening and eaten a vegetarian meal in a restaurant which could include fried potatoes but I return to my way the next day.
I cook 95% of the family meals and don’t add oils; I do use salt, pepper, spices, herbs, soy sauce and hot sauce. I tend to take my inspiration from elite endurance runners.
For exercise I run maybe 3miles twice a week and if possible I attend a local crossfit class but this is only a recent development to gain muscle definition and yes I clock up more than enough (perhaps too much) protein from my daily intake which can often be about 70g a day.
I do try and have protein free low calorie days at least once within a 2 week period but that is me following another trail of research (see vid posted on fasting above).
You need to wipe the slate clean and pick one thing with regards to your eating plan and style because not only are you confusing your head but you are confusing your body and as Ray has suggested jumping between diets is causing your weight issues.
Have a go its only 2 weeks!!!
Yes may be you are right. I really confuse my body.
body and mind work together and i agree there is so much information out there and i have tried many ways of eating promoted to be the best or the most natural according to thousands of years of human development.
Basically Its all a matter of opinion with many reports and trials lending weight to support the argument for rather than against.
I’m staying put because for the first time ever i have followed something that actually had the results we were led to be expected. If that was the tip of the iceberg then im am very excited about what comes next.
Nutrition has filled every part of today’s world and many of the teachings are coulds and shoulds!
I want rules, laws and direction!
How did you cooked the potatoes those two weeks?Boiled or baked?Did you use some sauce, onion or something?What about rice?Did you use any kind of fat or oil to cook the potatoes?
Alex,
Are you trying to wind me up? all the information about what i do is withing the last few posts.
Nevermind, forget it.
Im sorry but there is an element of self discovery with regards to previous posts even though there is a hypocrisy on my part as i wait for Ray to lead.
I’m on Day 6 of a 10 day “Potato Only” trial. Will post full results later, but here’s how I’ve been eating potatoes:
Boiled, eaten cold or hot, plain or with a little salt
Baked, eaten cold or hot, plain or w/salt
Shredded finely and fried in a dry pan, eaten hot with vinegar and a little salt&pepper
Chopped into cubes (home fries) and fried in dry pan, eaten with a little no HFCS ketchup
Sliced thinly and fried in a dry pan
They fry up amazingly well in a no-stick pan. A little vinegar goes a long way and gives great flavor.
5’10, 47yo, M, started experiment at 172. After 6 days 166. Will post again 1 week after completion.
Tim, how much potatoes do you eat a day? What were you eating before the potatoe experiment?How are your energy levels?
I’m eating 4 or 5 large yukon gold’s per day. I have 50 potatoes picked for their size for this experiment. This is providing me 1200-1500 calories a day. According to FitDay.com, 5 potatoes provide their calories from 75% carb, 20% fat, and 4% protein. Nutrient-wise, 5 potatoes provides more than 50% of the RDA for everything except B-12, E, Calcium, Riboflavin, Selenium, and Zinc.
I’m sure Ray is going to educate us on RDA and nutrients, but that is just a simple analysis using an on-line calculator.
Prior to experiment, I was eating a wide range of foods, low in starchy vegetables. Absolutely no processed grains, sugar or oil in last 12 months. I have been weight stable at 170-175lbs for over 1 year, but always thought I should try for that ‘last 10 pounds’. My body fat before hand was roughly 15%, but I don’t have a really good way to measure it. Waist measurement going in was 31″, I’m at 30″ today. I’m in very good health blood-work wise and how I feel.
Energy level is great. I normally do bodyweight stuff and walking every day. For this 10 days, I am doing 20 chinups, 10 pullups, and walking 3 miles (60 minutes) per day…which is all a bit less than normal. No slow down yet. Last night I ran 2 miles in 15 minutes–I have been doing weekly runs for 6 months.
I will give a full report on this and weight re-gain a week or so after I’m done.
No protein, carb, fat data… Don’t measure. Eat ad libitum until full.
In general, I recommend not doing exercise during the 2 week test. It drives two different systems at the same time (weight loss and repair/energy utilization).
Weight regain WILL happen if you don’t continue to modify your diet (nutrient dense/calorically poor) for a period of 6-12 weeks after. It takes some time for the body to reset to the new weight. You’re at the lower end of the scale, so it will be interesting to see what happens. You should level out.
There are several things going on that I will explain at a later date.
Thanks Tim.
Ray
OK. No exercise for next 4 days, that will be easy! I am eating until full, not looking at calories or anything else, just wanted to put that out there to show I wasn’t living on 400 kcal per day or something silly. I haven’t counted calories in years, but I would estimate my daily calorie intake over last year has been in the 1500-2500 range, with highest percentage coming from cocnut oil and animal fat.
After this 10 days, I am going back to my normal eating habits just to see what happens. I have fasted periodically in the past year for 48 hours. This will result in 5-6lbs of weightloss which is regained in 24 hours. I have a feeling that won’t happen after this experiment.
Your killing me Ray, patience has never been my strong suit. I got’s the have me some more information asap 😉
Thanks,
Simon
Sorry.
🙂
I live in Alaska. I just heard today that nearly all of the vegetables shipped here under irradiation to prepare them for the long transit time from field to shelf. This is evident in the fact that 10-15 years ago, you couldn’t find good produce anywhere here, now it is all fresh looking and lasts forever.
Luckily, the potatoes I’m using for this experiment were homegrown by me and I know exactly how they were handled, but just wonder what effect food irradiation has on the beneficial bacteria that should be present on your vegetables.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_irradiation
Good point. My guess is that it matters some, but why it matters most is that it gives the food industry something to sell against. Local grown or irradiated? GMO or Organic? Grass fed or mass produced?
The alternate close is as old as sales and it forces a decision where there is no real choice.
My guess is that this has an impact, but not nearly the impact of drowning certain bacteria with oil/sugar…or antibiotics.
There will be some people that it effects but for most of us, a simple diet for a few weeks will grow from our own supply the proper distribution. Then, of we nurse that along for a while the intestinal lining is regenerated as is the esophageal and other digestive framework.
It’s not that the we can’t eat many different foods, it’s a question of how does that serve us the best?
Ray
it’s my studied opinion that irradiated foods last so long because the process alters them to become actual “pesticides”. As such, they kill bacteria — and most likely damage the bacteria that matters most, namely the bacteria in your intestines. That’s why the folks up in Seattle who are studying intestinal bacteria want the donors to spend 3 years on the primal diet before they take a sample. It takes that long to recover from the toxins produced by this process and the usual cooking folks have learned over the years.
I’m amazed at how resilient we are as a species….
Is it bad to cook potatoes at 220 degrees?
I want to be very careful to not categorize any food, processed or otherwise, as “bad” or “good”. We wear this food body to experience this plane of existence. I’m particularly fond of cheesecake (even though I haven’t had any in almost 3 years).
I’m convinced that the amount of toxins (volatile or otherwise) produced by cooking would shock you. I estimate that if folks started eating everything they normally eat without cooking it, it would be equivalent to giving up a 2-pack-a-day cigarette habit.
If you are going to derive nutrition from a potato, I’m not sure what other option you have. When I have to “eat out” or celebrate with relatives during the holidays, I’ve always steered towards the potato salad. It’s a simple cooked starch (almost used the “c” word) and definitely is less challenging to the physiology than the lipid peroxides and volatile toxins in the cooked meat dishes.
I’m fond of ice cream. I’m not going to give it up for 3 years. There are so many things that are probably harmful to us.
Precisely !! I believe we’re here to experience stuff.
One of the experiences I don’t want cancer. Since it derives from toxic load (like most disease), I want to simply keep the toxins down. An occasional cheese cake (topped with ice cream) isn’t the end of the world.
The only reason I’ve been skipping the cheese cake lately is my body doesn’t handle cooked sugars all that well.
I 100% agree. I’m not sure how else to avoid it, but for now in staying out with my food.
Ray
It’s going to come down to frequency and metabolic load. Do it too much and it won’t end well. Weight is just a marker that travels with chronic disease. It’s not the cause.
Ray.
Good man.
You get bonus points. In not certain that cooking is as bad as you say. Perhaps grilling, but steaming is not a big issue. Many proteins and other biologically active compounds are denature at cooking temperature (hence the raw food movement) I’m not sure that it matters. Certainly ALL foods shouldn’t be cooked. A healthy dose of cruciferous greens is helpful every day.
Ultimately, I think it’s far more simple than what we’ve all made it out to be. What’s exciting is that when I take the simple nature approach (nature is always elegant) it all seems to add up.
But really, I think you need a little more “protein,” some “healthy” fat and low glycemic “carbs.” Yeah. And run around a lot. You’re not moving enough. Anything else is only water weight anyway…
Ray
I started a 10 day experiment of eating only potatoes. During this 10 days I ate only potatoes, approx 2.5lbs a day (some days more/some days less), which was 4 to 6 fairly large potatoes. The only thing else I consumed during this time was sea salt, black&Cayenne pepper, vinegar, 1/4cup ketchup or less entire time, and one slice of onion. No cooking oils or meat of any kind. I drank water and black coffee.
In 10 days I lost 8lbs and 1.5″ off my waist.
This was truly a “last 10 pounds” kind of weight. I have been weight stable at 170+/-3lbs for over a year. Attempts at calories restriction, intermittant fasting, ketogenic eating, cold exposure, and increased exercise did not have this effect. I am really surprised how quickly the weight came off.
I started out at 172lbs and lost a pound a day for the first 5 days, then it slowed just a little. I weighed 164lbs this morning. I weighed the same time every morning on the same calibrated scale.
As I write this, my coffee just finished brewing and I’m craving hashbrowns. I did not get sick of eating potatoes, to the contrary–I came to think of them as completely satiating and really looked forward to my next meal. I think for my first regular meal, I’m going to pick some carrots from the garden and make a glass of carrot juice and munch a few raw carrots and have a small plate of dry-fried hashbrowns. I have no overwhelming cravings for the bacon&eggs or cheese and dark chocolate I had been eating for breakfast before this experiment.
My energy and mental alertness stayed high the entire time. I stopped exercising per Ray’s suggestion on about Day 5, but yesterday (Day 10) I ran 2 miles in my usual time and did 30 pullups which is exactly what I could do prior. I don’t feel I wasted much muscle if any.
Next phase of my experiment is to see what happens in the next 10 days+. I am going to return to my normal diet which includes fish, meat, dairy, fruit and vegetables.
Thanks Tim!
It’s very predicable and I have a LOT of data about how this works. I’ve spent the better part of the last two months looking in great detail. It’s quite exciting to see the results.
Muscle atrophy is a myth… I am not sure where all this got started, but the body works VERY different than most describe.
Appreciate the feedback.
Ray
Hi Tim ,
Great feedback.
it is amazing what we think and believe should happen and i have been in the thick of continued debates with “qualified” nutritionists that say this experiment does nothing but strip water and muscle from your body.
I felt no muscular change and still to this day i float at 182lbs +/- 2lbs, am hitting the road running 3 miles, 2 x per week and have increased my body weight exercises and calisthenics. So how is that possible if my metabolism has cannibalized my muscles by not eating enough of that thing called PROTEIN.
Now all we need is for Ray to give us the the information supported with his data and we can perhaps stop arguing this point and have serious debates about what is supposed to happen according to the “qualified” and what is actually happening.
Another thing, i have suggested to many people to try and do what i have done because of the fact they are carrying excess weight or have very irregular eating methods according to the latest magazines (including my wife).
Not one of these people dare to try this even though i get many people asking me what i have done and how much it cost me. They wont believe that it cost me next to nothing for the food and is actually very cleansing and gratifying to make such a sacrifice and yet gain so much.
I don’t understand why eating a single food source for 2 weeks can seem like such a treacherous thing even though some would chew cardboard for 6 months if that was something that a Hollywood ‘a’ lister said they did to get in shape for a movie.
this guy is my hero and check out his diet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmacharya
Wayne
Don’t debate with them. I’ll explain much more after our publication is accepted. For the record, Rick is now (today) 248.1 pounds and started at 336 May 23. He probably can’t walk anymore from muscle atrophy and does look a bit. dehydrated. LOL! He hasn’t lost 10 lbs of muscle mass by a Withings scale – I’m sure that’s within the error of the scale over the range.
I have another guy down 30 lbs with a 6% bodyfat change in 35 days and that’s using a Bodpod before/after.
So it’s not water. It’s not muscle “they” just have generalized their description of what happens to the body so much, it’s impossible for them to put aside the diagnosis bias.
As I finished my TEDMED talk I explained that thermodynamics is clearly better than 80% of the equation given we are at best 20% efficient and converting fuel to work (not unlike your car). So throw out 80% of the energy balance and then play with diet vs exercise with a hand waving statement that a “calorie is not a calorie” and you’ve now got the box these folks have put themselves in for decades.
I promise you’ll get it right away. It’s actually a very simple problem once we ask the correct question.
I’m so damn excited seeing the results. Oh, and after everyone jumps on potatoes – you guys will know that it’s not the only way. Im having a ball and just need to pound out some new posts!!!! I’m so freaking behind, but the work I’ve been doing has me sucked in and I really don’t want to think about any thing else.
Hopefully tomorrow! It’s fall and I have to get back into the weather.
Ray
Now a lecturer by Gary Taubes that really confuses!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDneyrETR2o
I learned what he’s talking about in 1999. I thought it would change the world. All it did was change my world.
I’m curious, what part did you find confusing?
The gist i got was that potatoes and rice (amongst other labeled food choices) – the very things we have experimented with and had very good results – are making and keeping the populous FAT!
Or did i miss something?
I believe he said that potatoes and rice cause insulin to be secreted. The insulin causes the fatty acids to be stored in the fat cells.
That happens.
If your diet consists of enough calories you won’t lose that fat. If your diet doesn’t have enough calories, you will lose that fat.
I believe what we’ve been doing here is fewer than 1000 calories. So after the sugar spike and the insulin secretion and the storage of the fatty acids, the blood sugar drops, the insulin shuts off, and then the fatty acids come out of the fat cells to keep the blood sugar high enough so you carry on with your life. And you lose fat.
Disclaimer: Ray of course will be able to share more specific details. My understanding comes from both “Why We Get Fat” by Taubes and “Wheat Belly” by Davis, and “4 Hour Body” by Ferriss.
Yes: calorie restriction is how this works.
No: there is no insulin spike, followed by crash. Otherwise people would experience fuzzy heads, headaches, loss of energy, etc. Everything that happens on a pure Atkins or Ketogenic diet. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet But does NOT happen on the potato diet if you eat enough potatoes.
There are several types of starches, that is chains of glucose, some branching often, some branching much less often. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch
The end points of the chains are where the amylases (enzymes) attach and start to work. fewer end points means less “surface area” for metabolism/digestion to liberate the glucose.
The type of starch, Amylopectin, in wheat/cereal grains tends to be fluffy and has lots of exterior end points for the enzymes. So the starch goes in, is broken up quickly, enters the blood stream quickly, insulin is secreted, glucose is stored in fat cells, blood glucose levels drop quickly, you feel hungry, tired, cranky. Repeat. And you might have stored more glucose than you burned so you got fatter.
The type of starch, Amylose, in potatoes and rice is much more linear and thus is “time release starch”. Like how the density of pasta slows it’s digestion (by physically blocking the enzymes) the smaller number of end points on the starches means fewer amylases per chain, which means fewer glucose molecules entering the blood stream per unit time, which means glucose entering the blood stream over a LONGER time.
So the insulin spike is much lower, the blood glucose “crash” is much lower, everyone stays happy, but the body says “need more energy, I’ll send this to the brain, and go get some energy from those fat cells….”
So that’s how the “Slow Carb Diet” and the “Potatoe Diet” work, how Taubes is inaccurate about “starches”, and how my understanding of food metabolism is evolving.
Welcome Jason!
I think the glycemic index and insulin surge along with the storing fat description happens, but it’s an insignificant part of the problem.
It’s not the only explanation and apparently it’s not correctly explaining our results. Nothing in this framing of metabolism accounts for repeatable .6-.8 lbs/day loss that will continue for MONTHS.
Ray
It’s been bothering me all morning. I accidentally picked up his terminology and said “fatty acids”.
My belief is that when the insulin hits the insulin receptor in a fat cell, the fat cell draws sugar out of the blood and stores it as fat. And when glucogon hits the glucogon receptor, the fat cell turns its stored fat into sugar and puts the sugar back into the blood.
I’m not sure why Taubes has a slide showing fatty acids going in and out of a fat cell.
Free fatty acids can be used directly through mitochondrial beta oxidation.
…but it’s still not what’s going on.
Ray
What about the bit where the moms in nutrition starvation had thin kids but were themselves obese?
He suggested a staple of rice and potatoes (the triangle diagram) was wrong and it was a contributor to the obese epidemic.
Perhaps i am looking for something that isnt there but i dont see how your theory holds. On the vid he said a fat person reducing calorific intake would just eat more!
Rice and potatoes don’t make one fat.
You just proved it. Eat for months if any wants to prove its “water weight” and “lean mass” loss.
This idea of amino acids for growth vs maintenance has been raging for a long time and yet cows, giraffe, hippos, and rhinoceros have no problem.
Yet humans, that grow to adulthood in 17 YEARS vs months, somehow need more.
Potatoes, rice and many other plant food with and without simple sugars are NOT the problem. I can now measure it real time.
Ray
nothing he described is an anomaly. it all fits. please remember, I’ve been studying the model I described since 1999. I’ve read the text 3 times. I’m on my fourth reading. So I see the pieces. I don’t expect anyone else to, except the author. Based on your last comments, I’d say you don’t understand or believe what you call my “theory”. It’s not my theory. It’s the underlying physiology of the blood sugar insulin loop. The author (Michael Eades) claims that in 30 years of clinical experience, he has yet to see an exception.
If you wish, email me, we’ll exchange phone numbers and we can talk about it. It’s not mandatory that you agree with the “theory”, but I think it would help.
I believe that somewhere in here, Ray agreed with my statement of Eades’s statement of the physiology of starches, blood sugar, and insulin.
all the best
Bob raburkhalter@comcast.net
I don’t believe he’s correct. It’s more of the “protein” myth. As I’ve stated, if one manages foods by mythical ratios of macronutrients, it results in error. That’s not, of course, to suggest that one can’t lose weight through protein starvation.
As well, “protein” is insanely satiating – more than any of the macronutrients. But that’s not why this works and in fact the null hypothesis in play about the mythical 3 (or 4 – I love silver select single barrel jack) doesn’t explain these results. Neither does water weight. Nor does lean mass atrophy.
Weight loss, or managing a particular blood number, is not necessarily = health. We focus too much on the symptoms, not the disease.
Ray
>snip< -That happens.- Actually, no it doesn't. We are going to learn that fat synthesis from glucose is trivial and irrelevant for the the most part. This is a part that everyone is simply getting wrong. Oh this is going to be fun. Let the macronutrient-speak go. It's just going to least you to fat and sick. I can't count how many of my "foundations" have been shaken in the last two years. I'm very grateful for this group forcing me to wipe it all out and begin with basic principle. Thermodynamics matter. Ray
Robert: Regarding the fatty acids entering and exiting cells, see Blood Lipids.
“Blood lipids (or blood fats) are lipids in the blood, either free or bound to other molecules. They are mostly transported in a protein capsule, and the density of the lipids and type of protein determines the fate of the particle and its influence on metabolism. The concentration of blood lipids depends on intake and excretion from the intestine, and uptake and secretion from cells. Blood lipids are mainly fatty acids and cholesterol.”
And while sometimes we mistakenly think of the fat cells releasing glucose, actually they release fatty acids. The muscles and liver burn these: muscles directly, liver into keatones for the brain and nervous system.
See also White Adipose Tissue
I’m not sure if I follow you guys, but I think what’s going on is that while eating a mixed diet of meat, fruit, veggies, starchy plant-stuff, and added fats, it’s impossible to accurately calculate (and control) ‘calories-in’.
I said earlier that I had been consuming 1500-2500 calories a day. I truly believed that. But after eating what amounted to 1175 calories a day for 10 days and losing nearly 1 pound a day, I’d be willing to bet I was really consuming 2500-3500 calories while maintaining my weight for a year.
With eating just potatoes it was easy to figure my ‘calories-in’. I ate 25lbs of potatoes in 10 days. 25lbs of potatoes contain 11,747 calories (according to several on-line calculators). However, when eating bacon&eggs for breakfast, a piece of fruit here and there, steak and salad for lunch, salmon and kale for supper and some healthy snacks, it’s almost impossible to accuarately quantify how much you really ate.
I’m furthering my experiment this week. In addition to potatoes, I’m adding 4TBS of pure butter daily to my menu. This will be an increase in 400 calories per day from a pure fat source.
Hi Tim,
I dont get why calorie counting is useful?
I ate and monitored 1500 – 1800 calories for many months trying to shift a few lbs of weight until Ray popped up with his gem.
I ate as directed and lost 13-14lbs in 2 weeks. So perhaps my calorific intake was a little lower than 1500 during the experiment but i should have lost something previously surely?
I am very tempted to eat 2000 – 3000 calories worth of rice/potato a day over two weeks to see what happens then because i should put on weight.
I got nothin’ for ya–I was blown away. This experiment changes everything I believed to be true
the past several years. I think at this point calorie counting is useless.
Bravo. So do the butter-bit and let us know. I’m sleeping cold tonight. It’s FINALLY fall in Alabama.
Ray
> I don’t get why calorie counting is useful?< Yeah, me neither. Tim is doing some great stuff though, so don't distract him. 🙂 Damn this is killing me as much as its killing you guys. Promise more soon. There IS an answer. It's actually so stupid-simple that I'm not sure how I missed it so long. Ray
Bravo! BRAVO!
Report back.
It’s calories calories in and calorie out, but the world is dealing with only 20% of the energy equation and not understanding why it doesn’t add up.
Thermodynamics matter.
Ray
Just wanted to clarify–I didn’t intentionally eat 25 lbs of potatoes in 10 days. I laid out 25lbs of similar sized potatoes and figured I would weigh the leftovers after 10 days, but it turned out on the last day there were only 6 potatoes left, so I ate them all. Daily range was 3-6 potatoes. I was just eating according to my hunger.
Also I’ve heard that most nutritution labels are just plain wrong and we have no way to verify them. Back when I was doing Atkins, I ate almonds because they had 1 net carb (I know, this is an account of my old thinking) vs 8 net carbs in the honey roasted peanuts I really wanted. Now with no publicized change in ingredients, serving size, or taste, these same peanuts now have only 2 net carbs. I have no idea how that happened and there is no one to ask. I dont think you can trust nutritution labels.
Don’t take us backwards. I don’t want to go back to protein carbs and fat again.
Boring. 🙂 let the other sites talk about it.
Labels are marketing tools. Theres no solution managing (or pretending too with big words) Protein carbohydrate and fat. It’s irrelevant.
I’m loving it that you guys are thinking.
Ray
Ray, what do you think of doing the potatoe experiment with lentils only or for example peas only?
Any starch will work, but go for something that has an amino acid score above ~ 75. It’s not that simple, but that will keep you in the ball park until I post more details. Both of those are pretty solid.
Keep us posted.
My favorite site is nutritiondata.self.com it’s build on the same USDA data set I use here.
Now is we can get the USDA out of health. 27 National Institutes for Health – none on nutrition, which is instead managed by the department founded to promote agriculture business.
It’s a travesty, but I digress.
Ray
Hi Ray,
We are all waiting to see the data. Can you tell us if the article is in the formal review process? Or are you preparing for submission. I know depending on journal review and re-review can take a while. Can you give us an indication of a time frame?
Also I have never lost muscle unless I didn’t use it. This muscle atrophy stuff I never understood at all. Yet I keep having trainers telling me I need to keep buying BCAAs in order for me to retain muscle!! Just does not make sense!
Thanks
Neal
For those who are wondering what Ray is going to finally be able to reveal, and wondering what the other 80% of the energy equation is, go back and read the original post.
I’m guessing, that Ray’s experiments, with both The Potato Diet(TM) :-), and other diets, with various volunteer civilian scientists reproducing the .6-.8 lb FAT loss per day over weeks or months, have verified not only the mouse experiments discussed in the original post (above) and found some other interesting effects of changing the microflora population demographics in the human gut.
It may be, that beyond having a microflora mix that communicates well with our digestive system, and thus our metabolism, that fat acids get pulled out of the fat tissues and are sent through the intestinal wall to the “starving” fat eating microflora. It may be that the starch eating microflora are more accurate communicators of “fullness” or better symbiotes in some other complex way.
Digestion is part of resting metabolism, eat less and you burn less. Beyond the need to mechanically push the food through their are changes in blood flow, hormones, etc when you eat vs don’t eat.
Changing what you eat changes both what you digest, and how you digest. Complex carbohydrates not only take longer for your digestive enzymes to break down, but the microflora also will respond differently to the complex vs the simple carbohydrates.
So, while I’m eagerly awaiting, more information from Ray, and while I know this is simplistic, I am willing to drop as much fat, simple sugars, and cereal grains from my diet as possible. I will try to have a “potato diet day” as much as possible. And I will continue to exercise because that also clears my mind, keeps me sharp, and gives me time for myself.
On exercise, See 23 and 1/2 hours: What is the single best thing we can do for our health?
I hope Ray has really cracked this nut of making our gut flora work for us. If it’s as simple as a pure starch kick-start, then this will be a very popular dieting tool. Here’s what’s happening with my Modified Potato Diet ‘Now with added fat!’ ™.
Eating potatoes and butter. Weight loss now comes and goes, down 1, up 2, down 2. I added 400 calories of fat to a pure starch diet and I’m seeing an immediate change. I would say total calories are about the same because I find I can’t quite eat as much when I add butter, also want to add that I am not as well-satiated several hours after eating buttery potatoes as I was eating plain potatoes. I don’t think I could have eaten buttery potatoes for 10 days straight and felt like a normal person. 3 days feels like an eternity, and I was eating lots of butter prior to all this. 3 more days.
I’m not surprised.
🙂
It’s not working as “advertised.” This was a dilemma I ran into as well. The explanation is simple and has little to do with microbiome, although the microbiota is significantly modified/enhanced through lower fat/higher starch.
Well now. Hmmmm…
Ray
I’m giving up on the potato+fat diet! It reminds me exactly of how I felt when the doctor told me a few years back that I needed to eat ‘lots of whole grain and healthy fats’. A pile of whole-grain pasta drenched in olive oil may seem healthy, but it is no way to live. It makes you feel hungry and doesn’t deliver in fat-loss.
I can see using the potato-only feeds as a tool to keep weight in check. Looking forward to Ray’s completed papers and journal articles!
Thanks!
Tim:
Thank you for doing this experiment. What happens if you put the butter at the end of the meal, as in dessert? Or at the beginning (“Life is uncertain, eat dessert first”)? Are you eating less because your hunger is satiated? Or because of “stomach fullness”? Or because the combination is not as interesting to eat?
Ray and others:
Do we have any idea why potato+fat meals result in a shorter satiety duration than pure potato? Why can’t Tim eat as much potato when he adds the butter, and then feels hungry earlier than when he ate only potato.
Tim notes that he eats less when adding the fat, which may result in less volume. But it seems, since Ray has mentioned that the combination of “starch” and fat in a meal results in a shorter satiety duration. Why is this?
I once heard that “Chinese Restaurant” meals and “fast food” leave you hungry soon after eating, and the explanation was the water content. Which was claimed to be quickly removed by your digestion leaving your gut less full sooner than if you had had a “dryer” meal.
However, I also know from Tim Ferriss’s experiments on GI peaks in 4HB, and my own experience, that adding water to a meal, either through soup/stew creation, or drinking lots of water as I eat, results in a feeling of fullness. Also potatoes are “mostly water” even when baked. Baked potato water content 224g out of 299g total mass.
Pasta is also “mostly water”, Rice “mostly water”. Is this a water + fat thing or a starch + fat thing?
So much I’d like to say now. Just hang on for a little while longer. Implantable glucose data for you as well as full room calorimeter data.
It’s not what you think and until you lose the protein-carb-fat construct for food, it won’t make sense.
The great thing is that it works, there’s a huge scientific foundation for the results and it turns out to be a great mystery story. I like those kinds of problems and am grateful I stumbled onto this one and carried it through…
Ray
My wife and i started the potato/rice experiment last week Mon !st Oct.
For myself 2-3 Hitt sessions of 20 mins and one heavy weight session of 15min a la Doug Mcguff, this is my normal routine. If I had stopped exercising I would have probably lost a couple of pounds anyway thus distorting the experiment. Often do not eat till midday as is my usual norm, so some IF effect possibly, but as near to my normal routine as possible. Cold showers 3 times a week generally after a swim and steam. Today Mon 7th Oct. loss in 7 days 7 pounds, maintaining pretty much all measurements apart from around belly, reducing slightly.
My wife does not exercise much maybe short interval session once or twice a week. A phenominal 10lb in 7 days although she has a lot more to lose than myself. We are both onto week 2 but have a heavy weekend coming up, so will measure on Friday as we know we are going to slip at the weekend.
My wife is so happy with the loss that she wants to carry on further after next weekend.
I am a little anxious for her to carry on longer. What recommendations do you have with regard to other food add inns to the diet that will not be detrimental to weight loss if she is to continue in the longer term.
I still don’t understand how this works, but as a Paleo /Primal it is great fun telling everyone I am eating potatos and rice only, after demonising them as poison previously and losing shed loads of weight. What will be the effect when I go back to normal Paleo eating, staying below base metabolism calorific intake. Will I gain or maintain weight loss I have achieved.The experiment goes on.
Any advice or opinion appreciated. Thanks
Fantastic! It’s a great motivator and it works well for quite a while. Ill email you directly and we’ll get her motivated and successful!
When the fat comes back, the fat comes back. There is so much more to this I just picked potatoes and rice, because they were evil, white, bad carbs.
The disbelievers will say its water or “lean mass” and not explain how someone does that to the tune of 91 pounds in 140 days. The high GI folks wont be able to explain how the 10 year long type 2 diabetic is no longer on any medication after 45 days and fasting Blood sugars in the 80s/90s.
It’s actually a great story, but I’m a stickler for details and so I wanted to run down WHY not how.
I guess a number of us know the score. I’m excited to have found out why. It takes a pretty large shift in world view and an open mind.
Thanks for the input! Ill be in touch!
Ray
I finally started the potatote experiment. Today is my 5th day. I have lost almost 4 pounds. I know it is water and this doesn’t suprise me. I eat only once at the evening. I am practising IF almost for 2 years. The most interesting in the “potatoe diet” for me is that my blood levels do not fall during the day. Before, when I was still eating meat and craps once at night, around 15-16 h I was feeling dizzy and lack of energy and I had to eat something. Now, I feel great untill evening meal.
It’s not water. There is something very different going on. As I’ve stated here, protein carb and fat speak is simply not correct and everyone’s generalized view of these macronutrients is simply skewered.
Your observations aren’t alone and it is very surprising to everyone that does it for the first time.
Keep us posted Alex!!!!
Ray.
But explain about the blood levels. I know that they should fall in absence of food. Why when I eat only potatoes at evening and after almost 20 hours of fasting, they are stable. Or may be, the dizziness and the lack of energy have nothing to do with blood levels?
Blood sugar levels remain stable after a 20 day water fast. That’s long after glycogen is exhausted.
The liver is a wonderful organ when we care for it…
More later – I promise.
Ray
P.S. Two years ago, when I started to eat only meat, I was loosing weight just like I am now. Of course calories count, but may be healing the microflora is the key in loosing weght. And we can heal it not only with eating only potatoes but with eating only meat too. However meat is not healthy long term.
Ray, when you are going to open our eyes about microflora?
you’re talking about cooked meat not being healthy, right?
Yes. There are multiple paths to losing weight. Many work. As you may recall, I lost my weight eating 6 meals a day, one low fat “protein”, one low glycemic “carb,” 6 days a week workout HIIT. Ironically none of which I now believe is necessary.
Mild cold stress and both the community here and the scientific communities push back made me dig deeper. That’s how science advances. That’s what creates disruptive technology.
I’m vetting my ideas through the scientific community first. I owe that to my community here and the process had endured since Aristotle created the foundation in 384 BC.
Many will blindly copy – it’s okay. I’m not here to get “credit” or be “right.” I want to challenge status quo and help inch us forward.
There’s an explanation that works for what you are doing now and what you did. This process will not level out, because it works using a fundamentally different mechanism.
Keep going. Your body’s been tough on you I’m interested in seeing where it take you. We can all learn. Thanks Alex for hanging in there!!!
Ray.
Hi ray
Not sure you saw my previous post. However I have two questions that I think you can answer without giving away the details of your article.
1. Do you think it’s possible to get so sub 10% body fat levels just on starch? I guess one can argue whether it not sub 10 levels are healthy anyhow.
2. Have you looked at other hormonal indicators in your study to determine if there maybe perturbations in these? I know we talk about insulin and leptin etc but wondered if that is something you intend to discuss at some point.
Thanks
Neal
1) yes, but agree that it’s little use for health.
2) yes. There are many hormonal issues at play. Looking at design of some follow up work.
In general it doesn’t work the way we like to think. The body is an amazing machine.
Ray
Thanks Ray!! On pins and needles waiting for your work. Very excited
Neal
I am wondering how this would apply to people looking to put on muscle mass. It seems like you would have to eat a lot of potatoes and rice for that.
It might make sense to do something like Tim Ferriss’s Geek to Freak or Occam’s Protocol to build the muscle and then eat potatoes and rice in conjunction with mild cold stress to remove some excess body fat.
It doesn’t. Putting on muscle mass is a totally different process from eliminating obesity or diminishing chronic disease. That being said, most exercise too much and eat excessive protein (plant or animal) and finding that optimal is a very difficult balance.
I’ve focused my work on ways to mitigate childhood/adult obesity and avoid chronic illness.
There are elements that probably apply to body building, but I’ve not given it much thought. Certainly mild cold stress should enhance it.
Thanks Carlos!
Ray
Ray:
What is your take on the various standpoints of “obesity is a sign of underlying disease”, “obesity is caused by calorie storage which can lead to other diseases”, etc.
Before this year I thought that if you had an underlying disease/condition which prevented you from exercising or eating well then obesity might occur as you stored fat. Then I learned more about the consequences of obesity (diabetes, cardiovascular disease, high blood pressures). And was reminded of how we feel influences how we eat which influences how much we move which influence how we feel, and so on.
So my viewpoint has become that the body composition, cardiovascular health, metabolic diseases (diabetes, syndrome x, insulin resistance, etc), overall health, body image and mental health, are all part of a web or circle.
My favorite metaphor (which is leaky) is of a spiral down towards sickness and death, or effort exerted to stay up away from sickness and death. For some the slope is shallow and it is easy to move towards health and stay there. For others, it is harder because if they overexert in one area then they might undershoot in another, and so on.
I think obesity is a symptom, not a disease. Managing it requires attacking the root causes and simply “losing weight” is not going far enough. I don’t think exercise is the problem. Certainly there are positive metabolic feedbacks, but that’s not the major help/hindrance to health. In fact, there is a body of science that demonstrates it as a hindrance. All in all, people still believe this is a diet < --> exercise problem and when one throws out 80% of the data (cumulative thermal environment), no wonder the “numbers don’t add up.”
Adipose issue is an endocrine organ. It exerts a profound hormonal impact. The fact that we are seeing more and more adult “age-related” chronic disease in children should be the FIRST clue that this is a disease of affluence and chronic over-nutrition – not a disease of inactivity. It’s so damn obvious and easy to prove one can’t out-exercise their mouth, it’s almost shameful that otherwise intelligent people offer inactivity as the main problem.
Right now this is a complete, marketing distraction from longevity. We are spending a BOATLOAD of money chasing disease known to be preventable with nutrition instead of focusing on real challenges to overcoming death. It’s a shame to see so many resources squandered on type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease/treatment and so little going to understanding how we can beat this thing called “death.”
I watch and participated in the opening of private commercial spaceflight. Sunday’s free fall sponsored (ironically) by Redbull is just one example that we can take this private. Medicine and health are MUCH further along with little barrier to entry.
It’s going to be a FUN ride. Strap on your monitors and grab a notebook.
Ray
See http://bradpilon.com/ and related http://www.adonisindex.com/ the successful participants all suggest losing the fat first, then building the muscle. At least with their approach of intermittent fasting or the taper diet.
YMMV
Today is my 6th day. For the past 3 days I have no change in my bodyweight. However my belly is getting more tight. I have no caliper to measure my bodyfat but I think I am staying the same weight and shredding the fat. Something like body recomposition, wich is very good for me. Three months ago, Ray advised me to eat only veggies and use cold showers if I wanted to loose fat quickly. I loose a lot of fat, but my arms and my neck were like I am 15-years old. Last night, after eating 4-5 days only potatoes I reintroduced the rice. I felt it like something artificial and plastic not natural like potatoes. May be because the potatoes I am eating are from my backyard and are very flavor. I think rice has too muck calories and it is useless to eat it. Tonight I think to reintroduce some lentils and the next week some veggies.The very good think is that my receptors for food has changed and I feel the real food much more delicious.My energy levels are ok. I am working till 17h and then some garden work till dinner only on water and no food. And the most important think is that I have changed my mindset. At the begining when I found Ray’s blog I thought I will finaly understand how the body works and I will see my abs (wich was my dream the last 5 years). Now I don’t care for that stupid abs, I care only to be healthy and enjoy real food.My dream now is to live without getting sick and enjoy my family as long as I can.
Last night I reintroduced lentils in my diet. This morning my poo has immediately changed to worse. Tonight I am back to only potatoes and tomorrow will try some other food.
Round two!
But this time my wife is on board and will probably be a lot better at recording things than me so she is going to record measurements and weight changes.
fantastic!!! keep good notes!
Ray
My Results:
I have just completed 7 weeks of eating predominately beans and greens. no fat, dairy, refined grain/sugar, or animal “protein.” I had one cheat night of wings, which immediately spiked my fasting blood sugar. I didn’t do that again.
I have been type 2 diabetic for a decade was on metformin, with very high cholesterol – over 300 – but no cholesterol drugs….only metformin.
I am down 15 lbs of fat, a size 2 from size 10-12.
My total cholesterol is now 195 down over 100 pts! My triglycerides are down 140.
My A1C is down to 6.8 from 8…. And the best part is no meds since the first week.
All this, in only 7 weeks, with no cardio exercise, on a 54 yo body.
You can get your health back… if you choose to…
Thanks Ray for all the support !!!!
Thanks Jeanne!!!!
I remember wing weakness night well. I know you were shocked the next day!!
Fantastic progress!!! You’re a great inspiration to everyone and I’m grateful to have worked with you. To all: Jeanne is an example of a person hungry to succeed. Thanks for sticking to it.
You’re an example to all!
Ray.
Just wondering, do you have a tapering off of this “Beans and greens” diet to a “Eat to Live” diet or other wider palate of ingredients?
My guess is that she can’t lose fat forever, so lean animal flesh? (I will try to refrain from calling animal flesh “protein”.) Fruit?
I can see that the chicken wings would contain refined sugars (in the flavoring), saturated fats in the skin of the wings and flesh, proteins. But why would fasting blood sugar rise? How long after the meal was this rise seen?
I ask, because my family has members similar to Jeanne’s description: diabetes, high cholesterol, high body fat, not exercising (even for cognitive benefits), Standard American Diet, etc. I would like to have something to present to them as an option.
Of course, they might not be motivated enough to eat beans. 🙂
Insulin, metformin and high cholesterol medicine appear to be society’s preferred choice. They choose to treat symptoms, not the disease. Further is the hypothesis that blood sugar spikes are problem (glycemic index), while I happen to believe they too are only the symptom.
To a society that puts food at the centerpiece of all activities – we are a people with one meal that takes breaks to sleep and work – the thought of >gasp< eating beans is radical and a daily injection is "normal." What's been fun here is to challenge people's notion of "food" and watching the Monday morning spin room (it's water weight, lean muscle loss, etc) try to explain results. I'm not the "potato diet guy" or the "ice diet guy," but there are elements of adaptive evolutionary health that are buried in both. I'm open to be wrong, but when I carefully look at the basis of our construct of food, I think I'm not. I can explain vegan and paleo success independent of the health consequence. What I found in my own journey of self-exploration is that I too, was chasing a symptom (obesity) not the disease. Even when I lost weight, the other health biomarkers didn't follow (or remain) past the losing period and weight came back rapidly when I reintroduced certain food. I think it's incredible that Jeanne's health is stabilizing and her challenge is with society's upside down obsession with food "entertainment" not what science has leaned about how the body works. It's a choice. Most choose what feels the best, but majority vote does not necessarily make it "normal." I'm going to be interested in seeing how health shakes out over the next decade... 🙂 Ray
My wife just completed her first potato/rice week.
She is 5lbs down and has been recording her measurements daily so i will post more after the two weeks is up; however she is so overjoyed at the loss in a week and the fact she is wearing old smaller clothes again that she has vowed to eat a similar way up to the festive season.
Apparently her office is so impressed that the word has spread like wildfire and many more are jumping on the bandwagon.
So my wife doesn’t do much exercise although likes to catch a 3 miler once a week and perhaps a dance type aerobic class but more for the social aspect. Therefore people are asking questions as to why and how because for all the blood sweat and tears don’t seem to do anything but eating a certain way clearly does.
Now my wife has never been a body builder so i don’t think muscle cannibalism is happening and water loss????????? Her measurements will prop up fat loss.
oh i was also stopped in the street by a young lady after i had said to have a go at rice and potato to lose a little weight ages ago. She finally had a go and dropped 4lbs in a week and was very pleasantly surprised.
People are having a go even if it takes a few weeks to bring themselves to it i.e.my wife but when the results are in they will take the weight loss and not worry too much about the plainness/blandness of it.
How much potatoes did your wife eat a day?
Alex i don’t know to be honest but i did tell her to eat when hungry, stop when satiated and repeat through the day, as and when, and not be rigid in her approach to defined meal times.
She has drunk plenty of water and we have indulged in a glass or two of wine over the weekend.
the amount is insignificant as long as she ate to satisfy her hunger and stopped when full.
I am still toying with the idea of trying to eat 3000 cals per day of potato/rice for a week or two just to see what happens but at the moment the thought of eating that much turns my stomach a little!!!
perfect! Post results!
Ray
I have been really craving salt with this round of potato/rice eating, any ideas as to why?
And then if i eat the salt is that going to be harmful long term even though i am drinking more to flush. Having said that would i be drinking too much that is flushing out electrolytes?
Thanks,
Wayne
I’d say it’s because you’ve conquered most of the boring aspects (psychological) basis for eating in the realm of sweet/fat during your first round and salt is the last fundamental taste drive.
It’s your body’s adapted way to get a dopamine hit out of otherwise boring. Of course those same foods, minus salt, would generate a huge dopamine hit in someone that had been searching for food a few days. Amylase in the saliva is breaking down the starch into sweet tasting glucose that would be sensed in the second bite – if chewed to a cream.
Take an unsalted cracker (hard to find without sugar these days) and hold it in your mouth for a minute or two. You’ll begin to taste the sweetness.
Don’t go two nuts on it as it does have a backside bite. Most people I’ve coached through this process hit the “I need flavor” wall at day 3-4, when withdraw symptoms are at their peak. It’s best to squelch it up front.
Ray
So my mind is playing tricks on me then!!!
It has been a strange experience to suddenly need to have a salty taste with my food and i will keep it in check.
Seems easier to manage now that i can manage my experiences.
Just cravings. Three main drives: sweet, salt, and fat. I think once these are in check and you can CHOOSE when to eat them, food becomes less obsessive.
People often say to me, “I just don’t think it’s worth it to always worry about what you eat.” To which, I reply, “I can CHOOSE when and what to eat. It’s you that’s driven by uncontrollable urges and cravings.” Not trying to invoke superiority, but I don’t like dropping what I’m doing to mainline calories I don’t need. 3 hours or 3 days all seem the same with the exception of water.
Remember, there’s a big gap between good and optimal and no one must take it all in one step, if at all. My work has focused on non-ideological based eating. What I wanted to do is break through the construct/paradigm of food that has grown since the turn of the 20th century. Largely nothing has changed in that regard, but it’s not the only way to organize food.
What’s exciting is that by simply shifting that food construct, paleo and vegan success can be explained (at least thermodynamically speaking) and we end up with many paths to optimal if optimal is the path you’re on…
Ray
During my experiment, I ate only at night, and till I was satiated. That was around 2000-2300 cals. And I did’t loose more than 4 pounds for the two weeks. If there is no cals deficit, there is no weight lost, no matter if you are eating potatoes, rice, meat or lard. The potatoe experiment is for healing the gut, not for weight lost!
Alex, is there a description on this blog of the “gut healing” you speak of? I’ve read every word so far, and it’s not unusual for me to miss something.
turns out this isn’t exactly the case. I will describe more later.
Ray
I’m really looking forward to “later”. 🙂
I resemble that comment… LOL
maybe but lets look at super glue!!!
Robert Burkhalter, the whole post is about “healing the gut”.
“They Are What YOU Eat.
It’s interesting that two of the top scientific journals, Science and Nature, ran issues June 8 & 14 with Microbiome featured. I want to point out to everyone that this is going to be the future of health, so pay attention to more information on this. As complex as our small intestine is on adsorption (and I left out A LOT of detail), how each of the 100 trillion bacteria process the food we eat and their resulting byproducts is MORE complex and likely more important.”
It’s interesting that when I volunteered to donate a sample of my intestinal flora to the research team in Seattle, they said they could only take it from those who had been eating the primal diet for 3 years because it takes that long for the flora to recover from the previous diet. I’m aware that the term “primal diet” is about as generic these days as the term “organic”. For their study, the primal diet meant raw vegetable juices, raw, unsalted dairy, raw eggs, unheated honey, raw meat, and some raw fruit.
They were excited to see how good the bacteria became when it no longer had to deal with the bacteria-killing, heat-produced toxins from the typical American table food prep, and the bacteria-killing preservative items in processed / packaged foods.
Does rice contain gluten?
No, rice is gluten free
Is there a problem with using the flavored microwaveable packages of rice to help with the boredom?
Depends. If it’s the first few weeks and you’re trying to “reset” your relationships with food, stay away. Second, be careful of ingredients – if you don’t know what’s in there, stay away. Third, you’ll probably get slightly better results from potatoes than rice (again first weeks), primarily because of more resistant starch content and higher distribution of amino acid profile.
All of that being said, I made low fat chili today using packaged of flavor with too much salt, canned beans/tomatoes (not fresh) and I’m not really worried.
By leaving off the 2 lbs of ground beef it called for, I saved about 2000 Calories on the entire crockpot full (~1600 cal in the entire pot) and even if I ate all of it (I might), it’s not that bad. I’ll see a little spike in water retention due to the excess salt, but other than that not an ounce of will be deposited and ill stay neutral.
It’s fall. It’s cool. I’m going to eat some chili today outside in shorts and tshirt and REALLY take in a moment of feast. Not only will it taste superb, but it won’t set me back any either.
So I’d say that if you’re trying to “tough it out” leave it alone. If you’re really craving it, resist until it’s optional, but food still can be enjoyed and entertaining – just not every day and certainly not 6x a day as I once firmly believed by trusting the dogma of others.
Ray.
what do you believe will happen if I enjoy (and am entertained by) my food 6x a day ?
Chronic over nutrition.
Ray
Heres the ingredients for the plain one.
INGREDIENTS: WATER; PARBOILED LONG GRAIN RICE; CANOLA OIL AND/OR SUNFLOWER OIL†; NIACIN; FERRIC ORTHOPHOSPHATE; thiamine MONONITRATE; FOLIC ACID
I do put some spices on it.
I like the idea of feasting with no fear of fat gain.
Oil, so no. No fat. An entirely different process results.
This is why I tell everyone to eat potato and rice. It’s just way easier than getting into all the variations. Refine oil and sugar are not allowed. That rules out nearly all processes food and Resturant food. Even food that is said to be “fat free” (like steamed vegetables at a Chinese Resturant) are actually dunked in hot oil before the steam.
Ray.
Carlos, you cannot feast without fear of getting fat. It doesn’t matter if you are eating only rice and potatoes. If you eat more than you burn, you gain fat. You cannot change that!
What is interesting though, is the 2000cals (women) and 2500cals (men) an accurate prediction of the normal eating range?
I haven’t eaten anywhere near 2500 cals regularly for probably years. I did try this a few months ago and i struggled to eat normal produce (vegetarian) and had to resort to 2 snickers bars to boost my intake by 500 cals or so.
You can see from my chart, mine isn’t that high and it can range from 1500 to 3000 in a matter of 20 minutes depending on food, activity and temperature.
Trust me when I say don’t ever eat to meet a fictitious calorie requirement. While that might be applicable to a patient in the ICU under static life, food and temp conditions, it turns out not to apply much to real life.
More later. It’s killing me as well not to lay it out. There is a very simple explanation.
Ray
While the general statement: you have to burn more than you eat to lose is obviously true, the current construct of metabolism and food is not and so therefore it’s almost impossible to gauge anything based on food labels.
I’ve measured a lot of metabolisms and activities in the last few months. Metabolism is NOT static. General ideas of RMR are correct as is average consumption over several days, however, the static view does not predict the massive weight loss I’ve been able to produce. There is a very real reason and once you have that new construct of food, you’ll see it too.
Sorry to tease, but this line of exploration doesn’t warrant further discussion as not unlike protein carb and fat speak, it’s a broken concept and the best anyone else can come up with is “all calories aren’t created equal.” I’ve taken it to the next level And it’s very predictable.
Ray
I have been doing it for a while now. By feast I mean eating as much as I want, not as much as I possibly can.
I can do that with potatoes. I cannot do that with potato chips.
I can do that with rice. I cannot do that with rice krispie treats.
You understand PERFECTLY. all three lines – well said.
Ray
I don’t know what is my RMR. But when I eat potatoes till satiate (wich is at least 5 lbs) I cannot loose weight.
chew to a cream before you swallow. I too am a “gulper” – like a python. If you build up hunger for a while and then gulp, it is possible to put a lot more in before the brain turns off hunger hormonally. Emotional eating is a different side of the same coin. By taking away a little bit of the reward (boring) and eating foods that force satiation without excess caloric intake, you should have a VERY hard time overeating for days on end. You might do it for a few days, but it shouldn’t last.
I think everyone that has gotten to this point clearly recognizes it and it’s really an interesting and unique prospective. Having nearly complete control of eating urges is very satisfying. As Tim pointed out in his butter experience, it takes only a few days going back to the “old way” before one realizes that’s not a very fun way to live.
In time I will fully map out these levels of satiation…I just wanted to put something out quick, that shook everyone’s foundation a bit.
OH how I love to read some of the explanations some people are writing about elsewhere. The truth is simple.
Ray
The problem is that I will feel more satiate if I eat a steak with bread (500-600 kk) than if I eat 2lbs of potatoes (800-1000 kk).
Try 2 steaks and without the bread. That should work for weight loss.
If healing your gut is your goal. Eat 5 lbs of potatoes with nothing on them daily for a week. That should fill you up and have you begging for less the next week.
Carlos, I have already tried ketognic diet for almost a year. I had lost a lot of weight. But since I read this blog, I already think meat is not healthy. Do you think one week is enough for healing the gut?
Im not sure. I think Ray recommends 2 weeks.
two is the minimum for change. I don’t think it’s “cured” at this point and some might need more invasive procedures if the natural microbiota is wiped out or diminished by past antibiotics.
Two weeks is where the change likely starts to take hold and antidotally I have seen many people experience the change in general bowel operation after that point.
As well, it’s clearly past the withdraw point and tastes have already started changing.
Ray
Let’s say I have cured my gut after a month of eating clear food. Then if I binge once a week, how many days are need to restore my gut again?
It doesn’t change that fast. You should notice a difference in how you react to high-fat food immediately. Changes in frequency, consistency, and even smell of bowel movements. Some of these changes are due to a population reduction of species of bacteria that used to thrive on your old diet.
A good “general news story” account from this summer’s issue of Science can be found here:
http://211.144.68.84:9998/91keshi/Public/File/41/336-6086/pdf/1248.full.pdf
Note:
“Studies by Patrice D. Cani of the Catholic University of Louvain in Belgium and others have shown that a clear sequence of changes occurs in an animal’s gut after consuming a high-fat diet. Bad bacteria increase, the gut barrier becomes more permeable, and toxins increase in the bloodstream. The spike in toxins, in turn, triggers inflammation, which prompts a fall in the host’s metabolism. Zhao now hopes to see the reverse in his human subjects as they adopt healthier diets.”
This an older, but well rounded article on the questions if microbiome. It’s not specific with answers, but can guide you on the direction this research was headed:
http://www.medicinabiointegrata.com/doc/probiotici/Aspetti%20genetici%20dei%20batteri%20intestinali.pdf
Here is an open source article that explains the complexity of the issue, something I don’t want to trivialize:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3231917/
Hope this helps, but I’m certain a single serving of meat doesn’t change everything. The question is at what level of increased fat intake is the “tipping point” reached? I don’t think we know that answer, but eating a high fat meal (olive oil or lard) 5-6 times a day seems excessive. High fat here being greater than 10% of calories (guess).
What’s interesting that no one talks about is that as we place micro/macro nutrient restrictions in diet, our microbiome begins to manage/facilitate the deficiency for us – see for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20089787/
There is evidence this is true for indispensable (essential) amino acids and essential fatty acids. My thoughts lately are more along the lines of whether we should be surprised by deleterious health effects of concentrating and ingesting known biologically active molecules in massively excess doses.
Wonder how it effects the microbiome? Is it really good? Harmless in excess?
Ray
Hi Ray,
how does an all potato day compare to a total fast day (just black coffee and water) ?
I’m doing a black coffee and water fast today but am intrigued to end my fast tomorrow with an all potato meal versus my usual meat/fat one…
I doubt I will ever get a 7-14 day stretch with my client and social obligations, but perhaps this can be my default plan on the days I don’t have to eat out…
thanks again (btw – learning to crave cold showers)
Hi Ray,
I read this post again and I think what I’m asking is:
if I am trying to lose bodyfat while primarily eating a VLC diet, mostly meat, seafood, and fats – for purposes of fat loss, is a total fast day not as good as a meal of no fat baked potatoes because the potatoes provide nutrition to my skewed GI flora that somehow helps in fat loss in a way I have not understood yet?
I think that is what I’m asking 🙂
Hi Ray,
Great site I am at Day 7 of Potato and rice with hot chili sauce and I am down 5kgs to 105.9kgs ~20% BF (~11.1lbs). My weight has stayed the same for the last couple of days even though my apertite has dropped right off and I am eating 1000-1200 cals.
Not noticable drops in strength or fitness, I swim in a masters squad twice a week and if anything I am swimming slightly faster and with less fatigue latic acid build up in the arms. Body weight and Kettle beel exercise are at similar intesitys to pre Starch diet or mainly Paleo eating. Also doing the cold, hot, cold showers and sleeping duvet free. So trying lots of stuff to drop down the last 10kgs (22lbs).
Not sure if the weight stabilisation means anything but will contimnue to the weekend. Interesting that I have had no cravings besides salt, normally I would be looking at the fruit bowl, cheese bin or loading up with craem in my coffee at this low level.
Cheers Shane
Fantastic!!
I hope you kept good records, please fill out some data sheets at the progress link – It really helps. As for plateaus – they are completely normal. I don’t have a good explanation for them, but I can tell you that everyone experiences these. What is important is to stay the course. Of the two, I would rather see you focus primarily on the potatoes during the first period and use rice as a “life boat” in times of travel/eating out.
Also, try dropping back a little on training – keep in mind that catabolic/anabolic are two separate processes and some have much more progress keeping them that way. Of course our body is never really truly not repairing, but get to your body fat goals as fast as possible and then tone up a bit. You don’t have to go all the way, but keep your kettle bell sessions on the short/light side of things. A good portion of Minimum Effective Dose is in order.
Tell me about the water temperature at your pool? Also air temperatures during times on the deck?
I’ll explain more later, but I had a good idea that this would sort of take off in the various blogosphere worlds and it seems to be raging now everywhere. When I discuss why this works (it’s probably not what everyone thinks) it will make perfect sense of why I’m alway down on macronutrient juggle.
Thanks for the update!
Ray
Ray,
I am based in Australia on the West Coast, so we are heading to summer, typical dry hot heat over summer and a very mild/warm year round. I swim, surf year round down the beach and in an outdoor geothermal heated pool,
Over winter the pool would have been 28 degress C (82 F) Now as we approach summer its cooler I guess close to 24-26 deg c (77-79F). I swim at 5:30am so outside air temp over winter is between 2-10degs average would by say 6 degs C (43 F) , now its warmer average would be closer to 12 deg C and as summer kicks in it will be closer to 18-20 deg C in the morning so pretty warm. During the swim session (1 hour long) we dont get out of the pool.
The ocean temp at the moment is 20 degs (68 F), might get down to 17-18 degs C in winter. I live close to the beach so in between swim squads will try and hit the beach for a light swim first thing in the mornings. I have backed off the exercise except swimming and a couple of short BW/KB routines this last couple of weeks as I have just finished a multisport race (2 hours) and needed a bit of deload
I haven’t taken any measurements besides weight, but have dropped ~ 1.5 inchs from waist as I need to drill a couple of new holes for the belt. I have been taking am/pm weights and keep a food log so can e-mail you that if you like. I will probably do it again just before x-mass so will take some measurements then
Cheers
It would seem than another round perhaps one month after the last gives you another boost in weight loss. I have found it is not as dramatic perhaps 50% of the first 2 weeks loss.
But that was me and you may be very different!
Ok, I just finished day 14 and I am ready to post my results.
Start 229
Day/Weight
1. 227.6
2. 223.8
3. 222.8
4. 221
5. 216.6
6. 216
7. 214.8
8. 214
9. 215
10. 212.2
11. 213.4
12. 211.4
13. 211.4
14. 212.6
That’s 16.4 lbs in 14 days or 1.2 lb per day (avg 2lbs/day for a while there)
I ate white rice (about 8 cups a day) and occasionally baked potatoes. I used bouillon packets to spice things up. I sleep in a t-shirt and shorts with the windows open and the temperature in my area gets to 45-55 degrees at night. I took 2-3 cold showers during this and I did not exercise once.The only cheating I have done was to eat some rice with a little oil in it from commercial packages twice.
I reached the lowest weight I can remember in the past 5 years and am only 5 away from the lowest in my adult life. This was awesome, but now I am bored to tears. I plan to take a break during this week for Thanksgiving starting on Wednesday before getting back on track until I reach my goal.
As you can see, I have hit a bit of a plateau in this second week. How did you guys break through yours? I had not been drinking much water (I think I was getting a good bit of it through the rice) so I maybe I will increase that. I am considering doing some exercise as well to see if that will help. I’m thinking the Spartacus circuit instead of cardio because I am concerned with muscle loss. I’m open to ideas. I only lost 2 lbs this week which is weird since I lost 14 lbs the week before. That was amazing! I am very happy with these results.
Well done Carlos,
Sure is great to drop that weight quickly, I was the same came off quick the first 5-6 days then slowed done to nothing. I only made it to 10 days for 6kgs lost before the smell of a nice big juicy steak cooking got the better of me….
Anyway 4 days after finishing I have lost another 1kg and thats after a weekend of too many beers and plenty of wrong food choices.. Time to jump back into a clean eating this week and will look at a 5 day rice and potato feast next time.
All
Keep in mind I posted this potato “self experiment” for two reasons. 1) it works because of some concepts I haven’t yet explained (but will) and 2) I picked a ridiculous “high glycemic bad carb” to prove a point. I had an inclination it would take root in the paleo world and fly in the face of the one-sided ketogenic approach to “nutrition” sometimes exclusively promoted there, but not to the degree it has.
It’s quite funny to watch this launch off all over the blogosphere as a hack.
There’s actually a very serious side to this and I’ve had many in excess of 25 lbs lost and of course Rick is now about to break into the 11X range this week and started at 366.
It’s important to do the follow up side and that’s what I intend to do with a smaller group. Remember my goal is not necessarily how to lose, but rather, why we gained?
I just finished a 3000 mile marathon trip all the way to Dartmouth and back stopping to visit with my science collaborators and doing research in a few university special collection archives.
A few things were delayed just a bit, that’s forcing me to hold back a little data that I’d hoped would be out by now. To assuage anyone’s concern, you lose fat when done properly – even over months. I’ve verified with calorimetery and bodpod.
More coming. I promise this is not a planned “tease” you’ll understand more in a few more weeks. The delay was to my advantage in many ways.
Thanks for sharing. Please keep in mind I’m NOT the potato diet guy anymore than I’m the ice bath guy. You guys all know my opinion about “protein carb fat” speak and my goal was to lay down a foundation for returning our talk to food.
The results will piss off some, challenge others, but its worked every time and its supported by 200 years of data…
Ray
Carlos, how much fat did you loose? What was you bodyfat % at the begining and what is it now?
I have no idea. It was 21% last time I had an accurate measurement done several weeks ago. I plan to get it retested soon to get an accurate measurement of my new number.
Ray,
I waiting with anticipation for the next installment of what you have found/rediscovered. I managed 10 days on Potatoes and Rice and then have spent the last 7 days eating way too much bad stuff, it started off slow with a nice steak, then fruit but quickly slide down the slippery slope of chocolate, breads and refined over processed foods and too many beers…. Finally got back on track the last couple of days and I am planning on doing a few days of starch only then adding back in fresh veggies and fruit. Then add in the odd bit of meat or fish here and there, I had been eating 80 % Primal/Paleo for the last few years. I enjoy a good steak, fillet of fish or roasted chicken and eggs every way and want to keep these in the diet, but in a reduce amount. One good thing was weight hasnt piled back on with the last weeks binge but has left me wondering if I could have cracked or gotten close to the less than 100Kg (220lbs) goal I have set myself. I sure been in the ocean 3-5 times a week for 1-2 hours at a time is helping as well, I have ditched the 1mm wetsuit top and welcome the refreshing water temp (~20deg c)
So starting again today, I am out to loose that “last” 10kgs” I swam early morning in the pool and had nothing to eat until lunch which was 1.5 cups of white rice, any suggestions of how to ease back into good eating habits at the end of a few days of spuds?
Cheers
Yes…that is the problem. Of course it’s fair to ask if all of these foods are primal and ideal, why do you have any weight to lose and why is there a plateau at all? I’ve been in the same slippery slope and felt the same urges.
When I took meat/dairy/fish/sugar/oil/ refined grains out of the food category and placed it into the desert category, my problem vanished. I’ve maintained the same weight for many months, no exercise. I’m not telling people not to exercise, but lack of activity is not THE or even a major component of weight loss or why we gain. It’s a distraction in many ways.
You can’t out exercise your mouth.
I think with the caloric density of those foods is so great (with exception of sugar/grain primarily due to fat content – why would nature put caloric density in adipose storage tissue?) that its tough to lose or maintain and eat these in large portions or high frequency.
The “protein” argument for eating meat is about as ridiculous as the vitamin C argument to drink orange juice. Potatoes have a lot of vitamin C, but aren’t sold as juice – because they don’t taste good. What else do we justify merely on flavor (entertainment) alone? Ill come back to this at a later date. Sugar, oils/meats, dairy and fish almost all have the same impact on calorie density, but I agree, they all taste amazing.
Why don’t you ride this down to your ideal weight just once (experiment) living only on starches, and cruciferous greens/vegetables and then hold that weight for 6-12 weeks and then add back purposefully to see what’s causing the issue.
We know it isn’t the potatoes, because this is had been almost universally repeatable with the exception of all of the “hacks” out there adding lots of empty calorie fat and oil in the attempts of making it more palatable, when the anyone that was following this blog and my posts understands that this was designed to 1) change basic relationships with food – eating purposefully and 2) change the microbiome of the gut from one of fat-loving bacteria to one of resistant starch loving bacteria.
I’m looking for long term health and scientific reproducibility, not quick fixes and supplement sales. It’s caused me to challenge some of my beliefs and when those tests have been yielded good results I stick with it. Of course diagnosis bias plays a huge roll out there and it takes discipline to overcome it.
I’m willing to bet that the “gathering” as in hunter gatherer, is not emphasized as much as should be. That leads to excessive (unlimited), cheap, tasty calories.
The solution to treat the symptom – deprive the body of glucose sources so it has to convert amino acids to glucose through gluconeogenesis seems to be very complicated. After all we all know that a “high carb” diet makes you fat. My calorimeter tells a very different story.
Nature is always simple despite our best efforts to make it overly complex. That’s just like the quite a few years back in a news article that sweating burns more calories than being cold. It’s easy to make associations and then apply way too much importance to the wrong variables.
You have the right observations, chase it down a bit.
Ray
Thanks Ray,
You have got me re thinking my food choices and the way I view food which is a good thing and I think the key for me. As an ex farm boy I have always enjoyed my food, too much in the last few years with a desk bound job. I will have a good crack at it this time and try and get to my ” ideal” weight. I have noticed even after a day the cravings for dairy have disappeared.
Cheers
Ok. Wait – see you are invoking the energy expenditure argument again there with “desk job” implying less activity. Perhaps less cold stress overall, but I’m wondering if it isn’t a combination of eating habits honed during your growth phase and an acquired palate for calorically dense food?
Maybe the worst part of office jobs are not the lack of activity, but rather the financial freedom and increased activity with co-workers to go out for tasty lunches, happy hour wind downs, coffee breaks, and business dinners.
lets think through this a little. When we were younger, how important was eating? How many times did we hear “finish your plate” or did we need two warnings to stop playing to “come in and eat,” because it was time and dinner was ready???
We wake up – eat. Take a break – eat. Lunch time – eat. Go home – snack and then eat and wonder what to nibble on before bed.
This all celebrated by 6 meals a day (which I certainly believed in the past until someone here challenged me). See the pattern?
Today’s kids hear the same worn out lecture about eating their “veggies,” nasty over cooked string beans smothered in butter or oil – yuk. They don’t need a reminder about sodas, ice cream, energy drinks, candy, sugary cereal or cheese pizza and they are fatter than ever. Place all the addictive flavors and tastes in one food – sugar salt sweet and make it cheap and always available.
Presto – great for sales growth and nutritionally deficient foodstuff.
Wait! Lets sell them vitamins and fortify these energy dense, nutrient poor foods! After all aren’t the soils “mineral deficient” today? (Psst – it’s dirt) Where did all the mystic minerals go – I know we launched a bunch of stuff into space, but did we really deplete all the soils of minerals?. The plants, despite our brilliant dominion, grew just fine and didn’t even know they were food (so metaphysical), were the missing minerals there to feed us or were they there to support PLANT BIOLOGY and METABOLISM?
You can’t eat plants…you have to eat a cow to get good protein, only cows can extract quality complete protein by eating only plants.
I hear those GMO vegetables will make your eyebrows bushy. Did you know oreo cookies are “vegan?”
How about I like to eat hamburgers occasionally rather than making it a life necessity – I didn’t get my “protein” this morning so that’s going to make me sick and fat.
You are on to something that’s puzzled me for the last three years. I agree with dumping ideology of food on ALL fronts – including the popular myth that every 2-4 hours we need a meal, much less one that wins the culinary equivalent of the academy awards. Look at TV networks in the US like the food channel. Imagine my show using our favorite starch, potatoes:
[enter ray smiling in decked out kitchen set]
“Yes, here’s a potato. Steam it, eat it, and get back to whatever you were doing before hunger interrupted your day. And now a word from our sponsor. ”
I’m not saying never gourmet…I’m saying that If I ate gourmet or even tasty meals 5x a day for the last 20 years containing 36,500 meals and I gained my 50 lbs due to an overall net positive balance of only an extra 168 calories a WEEK, how is this explained? Was it too little exercise?
50 lbs doesn’t seem like much considering what I actually know I put in my mouth. And yes, I think the “calorie is not a calorie” is a useless observation as its being invoked. So is the observations that “high glycemic carbs make you fat.”
It’s a very simple quagmire driven by ubiquitous access to calorie and an acquired appetite for calorically dense food combined with a righteous attitude that gourmet was a birthright and simple food and some time without food is beneath us; so third world, oh my. Sounds like King and Queen speak from the 16th century – wait, didn’t they die young of the same gluttonous behavior?
It all seems to make sense to me, but hey, we can distill this down to – that nut says to sleep without covers, eat only potatoes and take ice baths (well, not ice baths). Or we can come up with some incredibly complex molecular biology explanation with many impressive sounding, multi-syllable words memorized and conclude the problem is not enough grass fed beef or non GMO organic wheat grass juice.
Perhaps, it’s just our relationship with food?
[rant complete – everyone offended]
Ray
Not offended at all ray,
I can just picture you in a cute little apron with a potato or two on the front….and no I don’t think it will be a ratings winner…..
Yep you are totally right it’s not the in-activity of the desk job that’s made me put on weight, it’s the emotional eating that’s goes along with it, be it boredom or stress.
Yes. And then there will be a whole other crowd that will take one off in a tailspin about emotional eating. I would be considered an obsessive danger at one of these “any food goes” events – or so I’ve been told.
I think that a little self reflection on food is mandatory. I’m amazed at how offended and defensive people get about facts they’ve never really studied. Just take one or two from this blog and test it. I’ve not gone out on any real scientific limbs here. Things like starch and amino acids are very basic.
I do have some radical hypotheses, but its necessary to vet them through proper testing and review; we can all be mistaken.
That’s why I’ll launch the new part of my site in the next few weeks. It’s all about helping people succeed and funding my tenacious appetite (acquired btw 🙂 to tear into status quo, keep the best and trash the rest.
This is fun for me and I’ve helped a lot of people. That makes it feel good to wake up every day. It’s not about pushing “my ideas” to the world, but testing the operating rules we all live by and attracting those people that have had the same lousy results that I did in the past.
That’s exciting!!!!
Ray
I too enjoy the rants. Nothing you said is more offensive than the sight of that fat SOB challenging me to a naked staring contest from the other side my mirror each morning.
I think the rants just get our attention so that we can change or they “offend” us to the point that we get mad and leave because we had no intention of changing in the first place. If this is the case, then the more people you offend the better.
Hi Ray,
I’ve been reading your posts since the “Meet You at the (Gas) Station” one and enjoying very much. Great job.
I’m following a Paleo based diet for an year or so with good results in terms of fat reduction and overall health improvement. I decided to give a shot to the potato “protocol” to lose the last kg of fat (started yesterday…).
To questions if possible:
1. As I do 2 or 3 Crossfit workouts per week, do you see any inconvenient? Any additional recommendation?
2. What do you think about using chestnut instead of potato?
Thank you in advance!
Renato
I don’t recommend working out on any severely restricted calorie regime. I think it is counter productive. There is a myth that significant calories are burned (calorie in/calorie out) during exercise, and the numbers are just not that impressive. I am not against exercise, but if someone wants to lose weight, you won’t post the kinds of results we’ve seen here using exercise or fat as a fuel substrate.
Contrary to what is popularly believed, our cells along with all living organisms, metabolize glucose. We have backup stores of adipose tissue and other sources of fat that can be used, but glucose is central to life. Take a person that has completely water fasted for 30 days and you will still measure a blood glucose number. Our brain needs it and creates it using gluconeogenesis from amino acids.
I can fully explain why the “protein/fat” approach works to lose weight thermodynamically, but I’m not sure its the healthiest way to do it. What I have seen in practice is a number of paleo followers complain about the last 10-25 lbs and their counter part are fat vegans. Both seem to underestimate the effect of both fat or sugar (pick your poison).
I would advocate you load up on starchy vegetables, cruciferous greens, and lose the refined grain, oil, sugar and fat (yours is mostly in the form of meat, dairy and fish) and then once you have reached within a few pounds of your goal, add energy back to facilitate your cardiovascular/anaerobic strength efforts. You will not stay fitness model lean without a lot of effort. Not sure that this is the best sign of health.
My focus was to heal from the inside out. Once I achieved the internal goal I had, I began experimenting with methods I could use to maintain it and still enjoy a wide selection of cultural/food experiences.
Go for leisure walks or hikes. Go for a nice fun bike ride. This notion that you have to sweat with “no pain no gain” really is a relatively new idea. Despite wide spread notions to the contrary, GROK, didn’t exercise. He/She conserved.
Ray
Ray,
Thank you again for the advise.
You suggestion fits perfectly as I’m also experiencing to find a good balance and maintain what I reached this far. I like Crossfit because of the “non-specialization” aspect, and, as I don’t take to extreme, I think it fits my current needs (in scarce time I have to dedicate to it), being very enjoyable and fun.
After this “potato/rice” experience I’ll give a try on your suggestion
to “load up on starchy vegetables, cruciferous greens, and lose the refined grain, oil, sugar and fat” to see how it works.
Keep up the good work (I’ll be waiting for more posts and the food site).
Cheers,
Renato
I guess my “just potato/rice” trial will end today: after 3 days, no hungry, normal energy level, 1 kg less, but started with reflux and stomach acidity plus intestinal “issues”. Maybe after 600 days on a Paleo low-carb style my body wasn’t prepared for this… comments?
Nevertheless, I’ll give a shot to your suggestion to “load up on starchy vegetables, cruciferous greens, and lose the refined grain, oil, sugar and fat (yours is mostly in the form of meat, dairy and fish)” to see how it goes.
Thanks,
Renato
Renato Torres, you can use chestnut instead of potatotes. You can use meat too, you can use whatever you want. If you are eaing less than what you are burning, you will loose weight. The potatoe is not the best choice for loosing weight because it is energy and you have energy in your adipose tissue wich you must use to loose weight. Ray choose the potatoe for this experiment because people know it like “carbs” and he wanted to prove the carb/pro/fat mistake. A lot of people on this blog still cannot understand that there is nothing magical in the potatoe.
Renato
Since I developed this with some very specific reasons in mind (not currently public) I’d say ignore this advice. It does matter. I’m not suggesting you can’t lose weight many ways, but there are some very specific reasons I’ve eliminated fat. There are other foods that work, but as Alex suggests we try to stay away from “carb-speak,” because not all are created equal.
Others are reaching plateaus in 14 days, I’ve successfully had people lose continuously for 6 months – at the same average rate (.6-.8/lbs day no exercise). It’s repeatable.
Ray
If I understand correctly, chestnut has some fat in it in which case I can say from experience you will do better without it. I have lost weight on Paleo like diets and also while eat processed rice which contained a little oil. Im sure I could have lost also by eating like 1500 calories a day of nothing but Oreos. When I did lose in the past, I was excited about losing 1-2 pounds a week. When I listened to Ray and tried eating only unprocessed potatoes and rice, I lost 1-2 pounds a day. Also, I exercised before and I did not exercise during the starch experiment. I got the best results when I stopped looking for other things that might work and just used the things that Ray said would work. That was hard for me to do but I am glad I did because he was right.
I love reading posts here.
RAY: – eat potato or as a second choice rice.
Most people: – eat what they hell you want and lose weight
Ray: – eat potato or as a second choice rice.
Now I have done the simplest thing TWICE and got the BEST results ever!
Ray,
You discuss how people can use what you have learned to lose weight. However, do you have any recommendations for someone who is at a healthy weight and wants to fuel their exercise and perhaps gain muscular strength in a healthy manner?
Thanks Stephen
I haven’t really studied it enough to say. I think much of Tim’s MED in 4HB is a good start. As far as food, calories are king when you’re trying to grow.
Wish I could be more help. I will eventually get around to that…could be a while.
Ray
Thanks anyway. I understand that it is difficult to study anabolic processes when most of the data you have is occurring in a highly catabolic state. One last question that you may have the answer to, since it is a caloric surplus that matters, is it possible that a plant-based approach (potatoes and cruciferous greens) at a surplus could work as well as eating a typical meat-based building diet for this purpose rather than the slow-carb approach Tim advocates?
Well, lets see: cow, gorilla, hippopotamus, rhinoceros, giraffe, and elephant all seem to have no problem packing on muscle mass on plants. Pandas manage on bamboo even though they are clearly a member of Carnivora. I’m thinking that boiled chicken and shakes aren’t the rate limiting step, but I wouldn’t try bamboo :).
If you work out, eat enough calorie, and have a quality source of amino acids, you should be fine. You’ll probably need oil or raw nuts and as long as you’re glycogen depleted (post workouts), sugar isn’t a problem other than it being a protein deficient fuel source.
Ray
you’re right Ray, there shouldn’t be anything a cow does that we can’t do. I wish I could get my second stomach to kick in…
same goes for any other organism on the planet.
when I ask about drinking cow milk, you spout the bumper sticker “i’m not a calf”, yet now we’re supposed to eat what cows eat.
I’m still waiting patiently for the good stuff.
Robert
You are completely missing the point I am making, or are just being antagonistic. I assume the former. I am not trying to suggest we are a ruminant animal. I am not suggesting we eat grass. I am saying, confidently, that the grass they eat contains proteins made up of the exact amino acids we use in our own tissue, enzymes, and hormones. All living organisms are made up of similar amino acids and there is nothing magical about “meat” that sets it apart from proteins that are plant sourced (other than I happen to love chicken wings and ribs, but that is beside the point). We can eat plants, or eat animals that ate plants, but the amino acids come from the plants, not the animals.
We need not eat grasses and other high cellulose, low starch, forms of plants when in fact we can eat things, like tubers, that contain complete amino acid profiles (potatoes score 109) and plenty of starch to fuel the energy needs. Starch, which we secret the enzyme amylase in saliva to digest, is created by numerous copies of the AMY1 gene.
Protein is likely NOT the limit to nutrition as it’s often portrayed. It’s not really that important at all in modern day, caloric excess. It get’s limited when people are starving and we don’t see much of that these days. There is no reason to eat meat (other than taste and enjoyment) and nothing we “need” to survive or even thrive. There are potential issues, but I don’t want to debate that at this time. I’m not sure I have seen studies that suggest increased fruits and vegetables, in particular cruciferous greens, are deleterious to health. I don’t think the same can be said for all meat, fats, fish, and dairy. I am not implying it can’t be eaten, but there is likely an upper limit and we certainly don’t need it as a “protein source.”
As for milk, and I will throw human breast milk in there, I have looked at the macronutrient distribution of many species and you can can look at the summeries. If we were looking for magical balances of “protein carbs and fat” (which I believe to be incorrect and futile) then cow would have three times the amount of “protein” that a Human infant would require, only 72% of the lactose and similar levels of fat. would you argue that we need more protein % for maintenance than a time when we 100% count on it for food and are growing?
But what else is in Human breast milk that babies need? My children were all breast fed and in fact I can tell you that when my wife ate broccoli they got gas, when she had a pain killer, they got sleepy and some foods sent them into crying fits. I also know that there are LOTS of studies that suggest breast milk is loaded with other very important hormones, antibodies and other “proteins” that are utilized during this critical time and promote growth. We’ve never made a formula (including cows milk) that has come close to nourishing an infant with human breast milk, so that suggests we don’t really understand it all.
Milk was absolutely used in smaller quantities throughout time, but not at the levels it is used now. It’s grandfathered in and considered “natural” so no one has to prove all of the extra naturally occurring proteins and growth hormones (forget the medications and other issues associated with animal husbandry) do no harm. Further, throughout our historical use of it, we took a little away from a nursing calf. Now we milk clear through the last trimester of pregnancy – when hormones are all over the place. We then concentrate all of these proteins (including all the ones intended to grow the calves your reference) in forms of food additives, concentrates, cheeses, drinks etc… and there is no real knowledge of what that does long term.
It’s very questionable whether we should drink human breast milk after weaning and it’s certainly reasonably questionable from another species extracted in a way that begs a further question if we haven’t gone too far. I could say the same thing about high fructose corn syrup, or high fructose agave syrup (organic no less), or excessive sucrose – less I be labeled as some animal rights zealot. Squeezing florida-fresh orange juice into a high-sugar load tasty drink that purports to supply required vitamin C – no thanks, I can get it from eating oranges or 2.5 potatoes.
What I have tried to do is objectively lay a foundation that protein, carbs and fat are not the be all, end all of nutrition and in fact, managing food in with this mythical notion that the largest percentage some how wins the food a label is ridiculous. It also makes otherwise intelligent people ask very stupid questions (I know, I was one) like “so, where do you get your protein?”
I love ice cream. I like cream in my coffee. I like fresh whipped cream. I like yogurt, potato chips, M&Ms, reeses cups and chocolate milkshakes. I just don’t call ANY of them food. As my rockstar friend would say, they are all “effects.” They aren’t food, they just please the hell out of the pleasure centers and provide calories.
If you’re starving, fine. If you are calorie replete, then they can all be acute hepatotoxins.
I’m working diligently on the other areas of why this all matters…I am glad you are waiting, because outside of “bro science” it takes a little longer to vet through the peer-reviewed community.
Ray
now that I think about it, I’m pretty sure some of the people in my family tree have a lot of hippo genes….
if you want an answer from someone who regularly practices the healing of organs, nerves, and related tissues using meat that hasn’t been destroyed by the usual quest for sterility, someone who heals what the establishment won’t even approach (parkinsons, multiple sclerosis, burns, cancer, etc.), read We Want To Live by Aajonus Vonderplanits [he told me he got tired of being called “Dick Marshall” so he made up that more pleasant-sounding name]
Stephen, muscle building has nothing to do with eating. For a muscle to grow, there must be overload progression.
I don’t agree Alex. It has everything to do with eating. A person has to have sufficient calories to fuel both the activity and the repair.
What I think you mean is that it can be done on a wide range of diets. What we’ve all learned here is that meat = protein any more than potato = carbohydrate. Real food (meat, potatoes, beets, etc…) have a range of macronutrients. Sugar and oils have basically stripped the “mix” and end up being just fuel. What current research is telling us is that something that has the same calorie content (isocaloric) does not affect metabolism equally (isometabolic).
Out goal is to have sufficient micro/macronutrients to fill those needs. Since I’ve focused a lot of my own research on WHY I became obese – not how o lose, the problem looks very different to me. Some might call it splitting hairs. I say it’s critical information. The nutritional/fitness industry is full of generalizations and misinformation – most of it designed o sell a supplement, training, or equipment.
If rather teach everyone to fish instead of throwing “red herrings”
When I’m not sure about things I defer. Right now, I’m not overly concerned with body building. I have nothing against it, but I don’t think it’s healthy for the most part. It looks great, but there is a health risk/reward benefit each has to choose.
Ill see if I can get christy to jump in…
Ray
if all that was required for repair was “calories”, then Pepsi in an IV would do the job, and my favorite: Pringles (bursting with flavor !)
Noone ever stated that calories were all that mattered. Ray stated that “If you work out, eat enough calorie, and have a quality source of amino acids, you should be fine.” Pepsi in an IV or Pringles does not fuflill this requirement. Also, in the near future, perhaps I will do an experiment testing an approach informed by my updated understanding of nutrition to increasing muscle masst. If I do, I will be sure to post about it.
I have been trying to gain muscle for my figure competitions (a division of bodybuilding) for several years now. I have done it on vegan, raw vegan, the ‘conventional bro-science way’, & now a very balanced approach with an excellent coach who actually believes in carbs! (who knew?) I am so very intrigued with Ray’s research & how the sacred macronutrient ratios are not as important as the conventional dogma states.
I gave up on the vegan/raw vegan approach three years ago, simply because I could not figure out how to separate the macronutrients so I could manipulate them. For example, in the raw vegan world, there isn’t a ‘protein’ without fats (with the exception of Sun Warrior or other vegan powders, but I’m talking about only regular food here, not anything processed.) What I considered to be sources of protein were also very high in fat, & I developed a lot of problems from eating so many nuts, not the least of which was cystic acne.
Ray’s research gives me hope that I can build muscle on a more plant-based diet, since all the amino acids would be there, & if I don’t have to concern myself with macros. Amino acids are the building blocks, so if they are present in copious amounts, muscle growth should occur,
To build muscle, you must provide a stimulus (heavy weight training) & the raw materials to repair & rebuild the muscle & promote hypertrophy, which requires a caloric surplus. It is a VERY slow process, when done without drugs, & one cannot ever hope to gain muscle without at least SOME bodyfat as well. The body cannot partition the calories perfectly into ALL muscle tissue growth. Once you have built some muscle over many months, or even years, to reveal that muscle requires that you shed the bodyfat with a caloric deficit—which is the exact OPPOSITE of what is required to build muscle. The average person simply cannot build muscle while simultaneously ‘getting ripped’. They are separate & distinct goals requiring different caloric intake.
Stephen, I do believe that yes, you can build muscle with a caloric surplus under Ray’s guidelines. Obviously, I have not put that to the test yet but it makes sense. The QUALITY of the calories will determine body composition. Yes, you can lose weight eating Twinkies & yes you can gain muscle with a Pepsi IV, theoretically, but your lean mass to fat ratio will not be what you desire. You can’t build a temple out of scrap lumber & junk!!!
I plan to test this out in the very near future, as I have finished my competitions for this year & am heading into my offseason with the goal of gaining muscle mass. I would love to see how Ray’s recommendations work for someone like me, trying to compete, but not do all the horrible damage to my health & lifespan that the ‘bro-science’ way of doing it brings! My health is my most precious possession—I lost it for a while, so I am keenly aware of how precious it really is.
Thanks Christy…
That I might brag one last time on you…she has me slammed when it comes to fitness. What’s been great is to see that 1) you’re in no way ideological about your approach and 2) pushing your body to the absolute limits you see and FEEL that some of what looks great is not ideal.
We are definitely going to experiment in this realm. It’s on the to-do list, but thanks for helping out stephan now.
you are DEFINITELY doing something right.
Ray
Thank you for chiming in Christy. I too will be looking to put on some muscle mass in the near future. I would love to follow your progress using Ray’s recommendations. Please chime in more often. i have really enjoyed the conversation and illustrations today. Ray’s examples really make it easier to see how obvious a lot of this stuff is, if that’s what you are looking for.
Ray,
Since starting the potato “diet” last July, I have lost #25 and now reached a goal I wanted to achieved for some twenty years (my high school graduation weight). Please don’t get me wrong, I am happy with this accomplishment.
However, i’m wondering how far should I go? I had so ingrained this figure in my brain I barely recognize the fact this goal is finally done. At 68’5 inches and about 15 percent body fat and sixty one years old, with a tendency of taking ideas to the extreme am I going over the line? I aam considering going for #150.
Ray,
I think I have been thinking a lot about foods, attempting to eliminate the macronutrient jabber from my head. But, one thing I can’t wrap my head around is this: How did you manage to get all necessary vitamins and minerals from your plant-based diet? It seems very difficult to do so, because Vitamins such as B12 and Meat-based iron among others are virtually impossible to get on a plant-based diet. How did you fix this or am I missing a key part of the puzzle?
Stephen, clearly I am not Ray but he and this blog has helped me tremendously. I am at the lowest weight of my adult life and it took me only 2 months to get here. I would say those of us that have been doing this for a while haven’t had major problems from not getting vitamin B12 or meat-based iron. I bought a greens supplement and a chewable multivitamin a while back. These have a lot of the absolutely necessary things in it. If I ever have any problems, I will just add back in some stuff like seafood or chicken. By that time, I will be at my weight loss goal so it shouldn’t be a huge problem. I guess you have to ask what is your primary motivation for considering this. If it’s weight loss, just read through the comments to see amazing results and Ray’s suggestion to not eat meat or anything else for two weeks besides rice and potatoes. That’s how I got started and I’m glad he made it idiot proof because there is no logical way I could get rice or potatoes confused with any other food. If your motivation is something other than weight loss, then there may be more to it than that.
here’s the answer you’ve been looking for: “There are as many answers to your question as there are people on the planet.” I have a very dear friend who swears by Jenny Craig cheesecake. And I know people who are vegan. I believe it’s true that folks adopt only what they can relate to, what they can understand, what they can fit into their brains (or their mouths). That’s one of the reasons the cancer industry, the cholesterol industry, and the insulin industry will always be here.
It was all summed up for me when I saw this tribe of people (in a documentary) who ate only yams. They had all sorts of interesting symptoms, but they never noticed, because they all had it. Dr. OZ (I’ve been told) just declared GMO foods to be just as good, if not better, than the non-GMO. That’s where we are as a species. We use “health-care” and “health” interchangeably.
I used to want to live forever (or at least 500 years). Now I only want to live without disease. There’s a book, The Recipe For Living Without Disease. It’s not for everyone.
Where people go for their “nutrients” amazes me. There’s a guy who’s ending the life of his body and he always consumes what he calls “Mr. Daniels’s amber restorative” [Jack Daniels]. We’re all here. And many are dropping like flies. Some are just starting to figure out that if a doctor recommends it, it’s off limits if you want to be healthy. It’s an exciting time. AND it’s an election year !
What plant diet are you considering?
Take a look a joel fuhrman – eat to live, he has all the knowledge on getting nutrients from food and iron especially can be easily sourced from VEG!
Nutritional yeast is a great source of b12.
I suggest that you look at the website Nutrition Facts which summarises the science findings on food and diets.
Vitamin B-12, specifically how much to take weekly or daily, Vitamin B12: how much, how often?.
Iron: How to enhance mineral absorption which discusses that plant iron absorption is controlled by the body but heme (meat) iron is absorbed uncontrollably.
Stephen, nobody told you not to eat meat. Ray says eat meet as e desert!
Hi Ray!! I love your blog (very impressive content) and your work, I am a HUGE fan!
I have experimented with cold thermogenesis for a while now (your way, as in “be cool, not cold”) with INCREDIBLE results. I am pretty much 5 kg lighter by just having incorporated a few habits in the past couple of months – very simple things that you advocate, such as lighter clothing, drinking ice cold water, house thermostat down, lighter bed sheets, opening windows every now and then, and embracing the cold winter months! I live in London (UK), so not that difficult!
I am telling EVERYONE about you and how “cool” and simple it is to get fit with something that doesn’t involve exercise or dieting – who wouldn’t listen to that! Thank goodness for your big eureka moment that day you watched the Michael Phelps interview!
This weekend I interviewed Ben Greenfield for my Health Divas blog and my final question was about spot reduction via cold thermogenesis – everyone says that spot reduction (or localised fat loss) is a “myth”, so I was really curious with this one in particular! Well, I wasn’t expecting the answer that Ben gave me AT ALL and then he went on talking about your work (!)
I will send you the YouTube link to this interview with Ben – you come in at around minute 15.
Thank you so much for inspiring us to “keep our cool” and for making such a HUGE difference in our health and that of our family and friends!
All my best,
Alejandra
Thanks!
Little changes go a long way! you should hook up with the CrossfitUK folks. I really would like to come to the UK to do a two day workshop and expand into food, metabolism, and cooking. There’s enough there to support it.
Ray
Thank you, Ray!!! It would be brilliant to have you in the UK!
Have a look at Human Race http://humanrace.co.uk/about-us I have a huge respect for their work. They run over 50 events per year, including pre or post race seminars, with large corporate sponsors. Participants are “weekend warriors” rather than professional athletes. By just looking at the pictures I can see cold thermogenesis all over! I think this is the type of crowd that would absolutely love to learn from a top scientist like you! I’ve never been in touch with them but I am more than happy to reach out and connect you.
Best,
Alejandra
P.S. Working on a post about you in my Health Divas blog – coming up soon!
Hi, Ray i love this site, I can’t tell how amazing i find this all. I’ve set up a donation, its a monthly amount, hopfully you can have some silver select on me. Do you have an email i can reach you on?
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/34866/title/Microbes-Affect-Weight-Loss/
It’s catching on….
yes. We are what THEY eat.
Thanks for posting!
Ray
Type 2 diabetes being controlled by gut hormones. I’m guessing if you eat the correct food, this is done naturally as well.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131030142919.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Ftop_news%2Ftop_science+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Top+News+–+Top+Science%29
Is there any little secrets people have following this potato regimen that can spice it up a bit….the way they prepare the potatoes etc.
Two days in and yeah not very hungry….so far so good.
Dartagnan
Yes.
I don’t know if our friend Ray approves of this, but I bought a Living Basix LB100 Jet Fry Oil-Free Fryer and a RSVP International French Fry Cutter from Amazon. I cut the potatoes into fries, fry them with no oil, and eat them with reduced sugar ketchup and some soul food seasoning. I dig em. I dig em a lot. I cant get my homies in the hood to eat a “plain ass potato” but they will eat these fries.
Air fryers are a game changer…as long as Ray approves…Ray?…are you there?
Hi Ray,
Today is my 8th day eating noting but steamed white potatoes. I ate 5 potatoes each of the first two days but now I have only been eating 1 large potato every day. Also, I am drinking water and black coffee. Quite frankly, I have no enjoyment in eating anymore, haha. So, this is totally working for me.
I am currently down 14.4 lbs. I started at 185.2 lbs (height 6”1′), so not technically overweight, but I wasn’t quite lean at 18.4% body fat.
Thanks Ray!
Ricky