I hope that everyone feels a little more enlightened on macronutrients and I’ll try to refrain from using the “protein, carbohydrate, and fat” dietary jabberwocky  unless there is a biological/technical reason for pointing it out. If you SEE those words, please note that I am not describing food  groups (like meat or potatoes).

I really believe everyone’s health would be greatly improved if you simply didn’t use these three words in any way in making food choices.  It may seem trivial, but it’s not. Our image of these words and the cascading, general inadequate explanations of what happens when these are ingested cause a major distortion of reality.

We need to cover one more area to wrap up the macronutrient misdirection.

There is absolutely no question that macronutrients come in packages called “food” and after these last two posts, you should understand why it is futile to try to balance these in some mythical ratios. If you do, don’t be surprised if you end up with the same results of the last 40 years.  I want to challenge another notion and that concerns our evolutionarily power-hungry brain.  The computer analogy says that the brain is the CPU – it controls and makes all the decisions.

It has the master plan; but wait, I thought the big revolution of the last decade was solving our genome – the blueprint for life?

It turns out that the computer analogy, while being ‘good enough,” sort of fails when compared to reality. Every single cell has your blueprint. We were all once just a single cell and then two..and four…and fingers, toes, and nose. Much of it before the brain seized intellectual control. My daughter is 16 and I don’t think hers has taken over yet. Sometimes I wonder about mine.

The point of discussing this is many of our daily maintenance functions happen at the cellular level without the brain’s interaction. More importantly some of these functions TELL the brain what to do not the other way around.

Enter Addiction

Let’s do a simple test. I want you to vividly imagine that you are walking into a movie theater. You give your ticket to the attendant and  suddenly it hits you. That smell. Do you smell it? Popcorn, buttered popcorn, salted butter popcorn – large bucket.  As you walk over to the counter the lizard brian take over and, BAM, you plop $20 down for popcorn and a drink. Now scoop up that first bite in your hand to find it warm, greasy and it smells delicious – Are you with me? It goes into your mouth only to realize that your over zealous hand grabbed a little too much and you stuff that in there too… Can you imagine it? Can you taste it? Can you smell it?

salt. fat. sweet. Nature’s survival flavors.

Most people can make their mouth water just thinking about this scenario. So, maybe we aren’t in as much control as we like to believe. Our brain is certainly involved in all of those decisions, but there is something else at play if we dig a little deeper.  Our gut. You see, before your brain ever “learned” that these were good things, you were imprinted through your digestive system. Sweet is one of the first things and happens in the very early days of life through nursing and breast milk. Put a little sugar on a newborn’s pacifier, give it to them while standing close staring, and  you’ve made a an instant friend. It doesn’t end there and digestive system, from chewing to defecation, is important.

I want to argue that there is something much more important going on in your battle of the bulge. I believe over the next decade we’ll see that it is at the root of our surge in chronic disease and obesity. It’s our digestive system.  It’s extremely complex with a lot left to be understood.  In The Second Brain (Gershon, 1999), he lays out an incredible story of the control between the brain<–>gut. What is fascinating is it is a two-way control system.

NASA KC-135 aka - The Vomit Comet

I saw some of this first hand. When I flew on NASA’s Zero-G plane (aka the vomit comet) for a decade, I was one of the fortunate that never got sick (if you are ever with me in person, remind me to tell you about the “teacher flight” – I’d rather not write about it). For those not familiar, we take a large plane and fly a roller-coaster like flight, which basically drops you 10,000 ft.  You feel weightless for 20-30 seconds.  It was a lot of fun.  Eventually, with my business partners, we commercialized it  (gozerog.com) but, we created a flight profile that cause very few to get sick (many “lost their cookies” on the NASA flights).  The root of sickness is in the conflict between your inner ear and eyes. Your eyes see one thing, your ears tell you there’s no up and down and blahhhh in the bag (hopefully you don’t miss).

Govt-issued puke bag

The interest here is that the body somehow interprets dizzy as an evolutionary sign of eating something poisonous and invokes the “empty the stomach” command. Once people were imprinted with that experience, just the smell of the plane was enough to start them on the path over the edge.  Similarly, think about when you are sick – do you feel hungry? In fact, don’t  you nearly always lose your appetite?

All of this is a complex, two way path between your gut and brain and what we are learning is that the gut is not just a sensory organ, but in fact send signals and the brain obeys.  How have the relatively recent advances of transportation and refrigeration changed what we eat in week, a day or even a meal? Do we think our evolutionary past was really as diverse as it is today?  All of this is only how our own digestive processes impact food.  It get’s even more complex enter:

Trillions and Trillions of Bacteria

It’s always interesting to learn something that just doesn’t fit our world view or is hard to comprehend.  I was drawn to space exploration by thinking about the magnitude and grandeure of the universe – you know, Sagans “billions of stars” (he never really said it, but it stuck).  Well here is a new thing to consider: There are 100 trillion microbes in and on your body, but “you” are composed of only 10 trillion cells. That’s right, “you” are only about 1/10th the cells moving around in your mass – the rest is THEM.

The gut is one of the places these microbes reside. Without them, you would die.  In fact, our microbiome, as it is called, is one of the next great mysteries to unravel. The Human Microbiome Project was launched by the NIH to identify and characterize the microbiomes that exist in various parts of the body. Each of us has a different microbiota, or bacterial gut make up, and this profoundly influences how you process food. The microbiome is the total genetic “fingerprint” of these microorganisms.

Understand we have to “feed” the organisms that reside in the gut and the exact balance can be related to diet. For example, Researchers at the Copenhagen University Hospital recently identified a correlation between antibiotics given in the first 6 months to infants and being overweight by the age of seven (1). When you take antibiotics you kill the good bacteria with the bad.

Thinking about just taking a “probiotic” to fix the problem?  These contain 4, 5, maybe 10 types. You likely have 500-1000 species and some estimates are ranging up to 35,000.  In April 2011, researchers defined three enterotypes, or clustered ratios of Bacteroides, Prevotella, or Ruminococcus species. Looking at individuals from Europe, Japan and Unites states, these enterotypes not only cross international and continental borders, but also race, ethnicity, age, and sex.

Beside the general information found on the HMP page of the NIH, one of the best open-source papers I found is this 2010 review article in Physiological Reviews. It’s long, but if this subject interests you, there is a lot of information. In terms of your microbiota influence on you, the authors point out:

“Nutrient metabolism by resident microbes is not carried out strictly for the host’s benefit; part of the energy extracted from luminal nutrients is designated for the microbiota itself, to maintain its numbers and fitness. It has been shown that members of the gut microbiota are able to adapt their metabolism to the conditions of the intestine, responding to substrate availability.” (3)

Of course these populations of little metabolisms all have their own byproducts, some good, some bad and we have to live with what they do. This is where food could provide a very key role in molding your microbiota make up.   While this research is expanding exponentially, one has to rethink the old saying – YOU are what you eat. What about them?

The Scoop on Poop

This is a part that edges on TMI, but unfortunately, there’s a lot of information lurking in this not so fun subject, so here it goes.  I used to love reading “The Holes in Your Nose,” The Gas We Pass” and “Everyone Poops”  to my kids. The truth is despite the stink and embarrassment of letting one go in a silent room, this is all vital to a properly functioning body. Your poop matters. In fact, it’s a great sign of what is going on inside you every day.  How long does it take to get through (transit time)? How is it shaped? Color? Smell? it all actually matters and can be a sign of healthy or not so healthy microbiota and diet.

I don’t want to get into this too much (I guess technically that would put me in deep-shit), but I do want to at least draw your attention to the daily bathroom visit. At the very minimum and I am probably going to regret writing this so don’t give me shit, but corn is a GREAT tracer particle if you want to figure out transit time from mouth to toilet.  Pick your favorite meal and swallow a tablespoon of corn, midway through. Wait and eventually there it is.

It’s sort of interesting to note that that time changes depending on meal size, frequency of eating and even hydration.  As well, it changes SIGNIFICANTLY with diet. When diet changes, for example when I began eating a mostly-vegan diet, I saw significant changes for about 6 weeks. On the other hand, if I occasionally have chicken wings or ribs, bam, it can change dramatically with one meal.

In one direction meat->vegan, gas was TERRIBLE for a time.  This is because the make up of my intestinal tract allowed a lot of undigestible oligosaccharides (remember our carbohydrate posts?) pass through the small intestine.  These saccharides are more complex than simple sugars, but less than a starch. When not broken down in the small intestine,  they make perfect food for some of the critters living in the colon and fuel these gassy tagalongs.  These are often referred to as prebiotics – including digestive resistant starch and fermentable fiber.

It is now believe these are all helpful in forming B vitamins along with short chain fatty acids. They can even promote calcium and magnesium absorption.  In the next (AND FINAL) post on the intestines, we can look at the various intestinal sections and the feed forward response.  I think you’ll see why a change in diet can really have an interesting side effect. Note that these changes need to be long enough for the beasts inside to fight among themselves and come to a new equilibrium.  For example meat/fat microbiota can be thought of as looking different than starch/zucchini.

It’s not that simple, but suffice it to say that it DOES matter. So much so, that (I’m not making this up) fecal transplants are now being looked at to control type 2 diabetes (4)!  So eat right or get a transplant – you decide what’s more pleasant: Calorie Rich And Processed (CRAP) food or taking a donation from Aunt Catherine?

All crap-jokes aside, we are only beginning to understand the implications of just how important these symbiotic beasts are in our health.  What is more important is that you will see that much more is going on than one might think, and how one digests foods is critically important to health and weight loss success.

Maybe we should be saying THEY are what we eat.

…to be continued.

**************
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Thanks!
Ray
(1) Childhood overweight after establishment of the gut microbiota: the role of delivery mode, pre-pregnancy weight and early administration of antibiotics, International Journal of Obesity (2011) 35, 522–529; 
(2) Enterotypes of the human gut microbiome, Manimozhiyan Arumugam, et al., Nature 473, 174–180 (12 May 2011)
(3) Gut Microbiota in Health and Disease, Inna Sekirov, et al., Physiol Rev July 1, 2010 vol. 90 no. 3;
(4) The therapeutic potential of manipulating gut microbiota in obesity and type 2 diabetes mellitus, R. S. Kootte1, et al., Diabetes, Obesity and Metabolism Volume 14, Issue 2, pages 112–120, February 2012 

 

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45 Responses to No Guts. No Glory. (Part 1)

  1. Mark Carroll says:

    Best blog post yet. Really interested to see where this goes. You may become #1 on #2.

    • admin says:

      best? thanks, but I’ll put it into the necessary category. As I drifted off to mostly food-based experiments it was clear that many were lost in simple explanations of complex systems and then asking why they fail (a calorie is a calorie and so on..)

      This is the last foundation subject and I think there are some great things that can be done on top of diet.

      Ray

  2. Michael Pinter says:

    This was a funny one, but I long for the practical post that finally tells us what to do.

    • admin says:

      I hear you. What I have said on numerous follow up posts, etc… is to focus on “net cold calories.” cool not cold. Right now, the one thing that really helps with a thermal load is water due to the increased thermal conductivity (rate) and capacitance (heat stored) of water.

      Very quick list of things to keep in mind (besides what is in 4HB):

      – cool room for sleep (post after next will be about metabolic experiments in cool/hot rooms)
      – swim. this is just a great way to create a thermal deficit AND ramp your metabolism for hours. while pools are just beginning to come to “swim temperature,” but not “ice cold” you are in the sweet spot. Water temperatures are in the 60-70F/15-20C are ideal. not too cold, but good enough to get cold stress kicked in.
      – Natural bodies of water. Depending on where you live oceans/lakes are a great source. Remember, time in cool is important, but exposure sets off a set of metabolic triggers that can have impacts

      I have interacted privately with so many people on this list and one of the issues has been that food is all over place. Having calories is probably not the best indicator of what we label “food.” That caused me to get over into diet for a while. As I have repeated, you can’t out exercise your mouth and so the idea of someone freezing their ass off and eating cheesecake loaded with highly refined fat, sugar, and carbohydrate (intentional), made me dig in a little…

      More is coming, I just want to finish food. As well, my lab equipment has improved significantly and so I have some really great simple experiments that demonstrate additive impact of thermal loads. The thing to keep in mind is that I began with a good foundation of diet and exercise and the thermal load went on top of that.

      Thanks Michael.

      Ray

  3. krishnan g says:

    The ancient Indian system of ayurveda (and to a lesser extent, its allied system, the Siddha system of medicine of southern India) discuss all things related to excretion in great detail. Good ayurvedic doctors ask a lot of detailed questions about poop, much to your embarrassment.

    Ancient yogic practices also emphasize an annual intestinal cleaning (shankaprakshalana) and periodic fasting. And whenever antibiotics are used, allopaths in India now routinely recommend a dose of yoghurt to recolonize the gut flora.

    And from personal experience as a lifelong vegetarian, I can tell you different vegetables also have different effects on the digestive tract. Along with corn, another great biomarker is cucumber, the ones with seeds. Papaya will also pretty much run through the system in hours.

    I hope you will cover these topics sometime.

    • admin says:

      Many of these things are mentioned in the introductions in the literature. I now doubt that yogurt does much good as the complexity is not there and dairy is probably not the correct thing to feed your microbiota. It may in fact recolonize, but perhaps with the wrong thing… It’s probably the one place I see common ground in various diet schemes.

      I will talk about the role of cruciferous greens in the next post and that is certainly a great topic. We discuss fiber all the time, but there are many other things lurking that have impact and some of them are being identified.

      Fasting too, probably has a great role, but it seems what you put back in (mouth end) is probably going to set the stage for how the microbiota comes back.

      I’m headed back into the thermodynamics of food and cold stress for a while, but I think science is definitely getting there. It might be different than tradition, but there’s no doubt it’s still important.

      Ray

  4. michael mellner says:

    Hello there to everybody, and especially to Ray, founder this blog.
    I have found it via 4 hours body book by Ferris.

    since I found the cold exposure concept I decided to implement my activities with it startin around september 2011.

    I’m 46 yeasr old, 185 cm tall and 82 kg in weight.

    Prior to add the cold thing I was at 10% BF. Now I’m almost 8%. true that I did it seriously: I had two showers, one at wake up and the last prior to dinner 7.30 pm.
    The water temperature was the coldest given by the shower, in fact I started to use the coldest water in september and decided to continue to have coldest shower letting the water go down along with the seasons.
    I arrived at 7°C, full body wet.

    I have to say that this cold thing is incredible because it delivered several critical factors to my body:
    1) I lost about 2% body fat in 6 months ( might be considered a bad result but it ain’t if you consider that the last bodyfat is hard to get rid of
    2) I never got sick except for a couple of simple colds which I got, incidentally, not doing shower but because I didn’t protect my aerial ways.
    3) I got physycally a lot stronger than before
    4) I became mentally (will power) way, way stronger than before.
    5) I could resist to every kind of cold in an unprecedented way

    if you think that this is afree of charge achievement, what could we ask for more?

    As a workout, I do calisthenics, capoeira, various tabata protocols (rope jumping, sledge hammer on tire, and so on), just to mention a few.
    Of course, I follow a nutritional path, suitable to have a healthy body:
    Vitamin C, Turmeric, a lot of magnesium, a couple of days per week fasting until dinner, not less than a gallon of water everyday.

    overall I like to thank Ray for this blog, and I would like to say to middleagers like me to not give up: fight, and fight again for your goal, even if you you lack to see results.

    hope this helps

    p.s.: below are two youtube videos I did some months ago taken while working out. hope you like them

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2CYgDUuqYI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZmUQOWT2yQ

    • admin says:

      wow. and the control on the calisthenics is really amazing. I’ve always admired that calm, intense method over the sweating, yelling spazz approach. Probably both work, but I’m biased.

      unbelievable results and thanks for sharing all of this. I’m excited to wrap up my food work and get back into physical conditioning.

      Ray

      • michael mellner says:

        Thanks Ray…really appreciate the comment. As mentioned in both my reply and videos, I didn’t intend to post my videos to show how good I am. Not at all!

        I posted them to demonstrate that everybody in good health can do what I can. might take days, or months, sometimes years, but everybody can achieve results, no matter what age he/she is.

        after all, I started working out seriously 4 years ago, so not much time needed to get something, right? Instead much of the middleagers don’t attempt to better their health (workout, nutrition, and so on) because they think it takes too much time to see some results, if any. nothing fartest from truth!

        …and cold exposure brings those results even faster.

        consider that the best results, in 4 year of path were achieved when I started the cold exposure, from september 2011 till now.

        thanks again Ray for your blog.

        michael

      • admin says:

        You’re in the game. That’s good. I know there are many things you are doing that I can’t and that sort of thing inspires.

        My quest is more along the lines of what Tim created a foundation for – minimum effective dose. I think exercise (as popularly defined), is a myth and over rated. Physical conditioning comes in lots of packages, even cold stress.

        Keep us posted.

        Ray

  5. Seth Featherston says:

    Can too much cold stress cause cortisol problems? I was starting to get anxiety from my showers due to the coldness, and it seemed that stress eating was happening. i try to take refreshingly cold showers now, not Wim Hof showers! Anyway, with all our food chices, do you recommend a high variety of foods to get the largest microbiome in the gut? It seems like common sense to me, But Is there a bad set of microbiome in the gut due to certain foods consumed? Plus i just saw a show with Wim Hof and the scientists examining his blood showed that it was high in antibodies due to his cold dips and could help fight diseases, but i knew that already, its just funny how science is trying to explain the why.

    • admin says:

      Seth/Michael,

      This is the place where we could derail and “over think” the problem (and solution). Yes, too much of anything can be a problem, but I don’t think we are there if we stay within the guidelines of mild cold stress. Don’t need to pack yourself with ice every day.

      Without a doubt cortisol goes up with mild cold stress/thermal loading in much the same way that it does in exercise. In fact, exercise today is simply a mimic of what we most likely did during the much longer evolutionary period – shivering. As was explained in A New Eye On Bat, cold stress stimulates the “fight or flight” response and in turn generates irisin. This hormone recruits new BAT into the body.

      There is a connection between both cortisol and cytokine (protein signaling agents) and these are also tied up with plasma norepinephrine and epinephrine concentrations.

      Here is the point. Stress is used in a general way, as is the term cortisol, but I think we are over thinking this a bit. For example, If I posted – I was doing a little running, but I think I’m stressed and my cortisol levels are rising, How would it sound? Well, it’s true. Exercise, like mild cold STRESS are forms of biological stress. Not unlike exercise, the role is to break your body out of homeostasis and in doing so, reset the functions. In much the same way that exercise is a great foil for an otherwise sedentary lifestyle, so too is routine cold stress for ubiquitous thermal neutral environments.

      There is a thermodynamic side of chronic cold exposure. At the EXTREME, the body allows core body temperature to fall – this was seen in populations of people that subjected themselves to chronic cold environments. This is why I am always hammering on cool not cold, because I don’t want you to adapt – I think the contrast is excellent.

      which brings me to the shower. I’ll write this up as soon as I am done with the gut/food, but to address Michael’s point, CONTRAST is key. There are certainly things that can be done by increasing duration and lowering temperature – to stick with the running analogy, it’s the marathoners and ultra marathoners. There is increased risk of injury there. For the average person, its the high intensity interval training – the hot and cold – that end up doing more good and are far easier to maintain as a regular habit.

      For the same reason (and Mark, you can try this to break through your 250 barrier), I’ve tested extensively 10-20-10. 10 seconds of warm, 20 seconds of cold – 10 times. At the end of your shower, just do that. You can as others have pointed out here, extend that last 20 second interval (anyone should be able to do 2 minutes) as long as you like. It’s easier in the summer than the winter. Everyone will have their little “cold spot” that makes them “flinch.”

      In the end you will be doing an adaptive, fight or flight, contrast and this will help you overall in much the same way as interval training or circuits do. You will mute your flight response in less than two weeks. You should do this once in the morning and once just before going to bed. You should actually REDUCE anxiety and your metabolism will be certainly nudged along.

      Give it a try – 2 weeks. 10-20-10x. I use a gymboss timer and there’s a link on my amazon store (I get credit, so thanks). I KNNOW it will make a difference and anyone can do it any time of the year.

      Thanks as always for the input!

      Ray

      • LeonRover says:

        Hello Ray

        I note your use of the word CONTRAST, and agree that rapidly applied contrasts have resulted in the most agreeable outcomes for me.

        There have been many occasions I have sports-hotels while skiing or gyms for exercising, and naturally the saunas, swim pools and plunge pools.

        I found that I prefer steam rooms (humidity) rather than saunas (hot dry air) for my heating phase, while the chilliest plunge pool for the chilling phase.

        I devised my preferred protocol as follows:

        i) warm up using steam room until perspiring freely and it has become uncomfortable

        ii) next cool down in the plunge pool until I have chilled to mild discomfort

        iii) return to steam room and warm up once more to discomfort

        Repeat these cycles until I have had enough – two to three cycles – finish on the chill pool.

        Finally, I put on my bathrobe and relax on campbed – I very often doze off for 15 mins. I usually find this relaxing, invigourating and restorative.

        Leon

        PS I’m not sure I would do the Russian or Finnish version of this where rolling in snow provides the cooling phase!!

      • admin says:

        I don’t think it requires even the extreme you do. vasoconstriction-vasodilation pairs happened with much less ∆T.

        Rolling in the snow is not bad either. cold is over rated. People fear it, but it’s really more in the mind than physiology.

        Give the shower a whirl twice a day. You’ll see results.

        Ray

      • Jason Harrison says:

        In your two week, twice a day, shower of 10-20-10x do you mean that the cold water temperature should be as cold as possible or a the temperature when cold stress begins? Eg, 80F/27C. What is the warm water temperature?

        This is, so far, the most specific shower protocol I’ve seen here.

      • admin says:

        Thanks Jason

        Doesn’t matter, although I would put the upper level relative (feels warm) to the cold – not blazing hot. The idea is the contrast and “exercise” the vascular system through vasodilation/vasoconstriction. I suspect this hits the overall hormonal hot spots without a need for extremes. In the summer, temps here range in the 70s for cold out of the tap. In the winter, it’s about 50F. Since the water temperature changes slowly throughout the year, you don’t notice the creep much. I find when I shower during travel, I often hit the cold the first day and HELLO, am not ready for that.

        The body knows differences, not absolutes.

        Ray

  6. Mark Carroll says:

    I would also like to mention my success, and the inspiration of Ray. June 2nd, 2011, I weighed 335 lbs at 6’2. I made a personal dedication to read anything and everything I could to beat obesity. Just a couple weeks short of 1 year, I am now 251 (can’t break through the 250 barrier). I owe alot to Ray’s research, primarily his work with cold exposure. I go through 40 day cycles where I reduce my diet to 300g of lean protein, and 300g of green cruciferous vegetables per day and also add cold exposure via ice pack to my BAT areas. Also, whenever possible, I take a 15-20 minute swim in 55 degree water.

    If you are reading this blog for the first time, I encourage you to actually take the plunge, and get started.

    • admin says:

      Thanks Mark

      take a look at my reply to seth and see how that one method changes your results.

      right now is the most important time. You must stay at this point for more than a year to establish this as your new set point – cold stress will help. Be diligent so that your body doesn’t drift back up to where you started. Re-engage and make the next step. Push down past your barrier NOW.

      Don’t wait.

      Ray

  7. michael mellner says:

    I add my concern about cortisol like Seth. when posting my comment I forgot to ask the same question. Besides Seth anxiety, I was thinking that since the body is subjected to a sort of stress, being in the cold and forcing the body to do a silent workout, isn’t the cortisol being released to protect the body?

    to be true I started doing cold showers for not less than 5 minutes. now I’m experimenting with cold shower in this way: I get wet by the coldest water, rinsing completely. then I turn of the shower and wash myself. after that I rinse again from soap and stay another couple of minutes in complete cold.

    as far as I can see I witnessed somewhat better results that a full time cold shower. true that I experiment with several things at the same time. for example I took a month of Rodhiola Rosea and Milk Thistle. might be that these two erbs are responsible to having me burn more fat.

    Since God willing I’ll spent some time at the sea this summer, I can experiment with longer period in water and will see the results.

    mic

  8. Chris Parsons says:

    I just found out that my wife and I are deficient in B12 and Pantothenate, both primarily found in meat products. It seems you are pro-vegan diet but I’m curious how you would address these vitamin deficiencies?

    • admin says:

      Thanks Chris…

      I don’t have any background on the two of you, but I would say:

      Take B vitamins. Get a shot. Eat a B-fortified food.

      I wish there was a better word than “vegan” as I am actually pro cruciferous vegetable, starch, nuts, seeds, and fruits not anti-eating animals (even though I don’t). Adding my pro-food list to any diet will help, but a diet rich and calories (of any source) complicates this solution – especially if people are trying to lose weight. It might also disrupt the equilibrium of the microbiota.

      I would say the vast majority of people are nutrient deficient for reasons described in this post and the ENORMOUS amount of “organically labeled” C.R.A.P. (calorically rich and processed) food.

      The diet and supplement industry is reported to be $68 billion globally – I can assure you that it wasn’t created for people eating a vegan diet or they’d be broke. $68 billion would buy a lot of B12 – if you are truly deficient.

      But then as a good friend of mine, Gilbert Welch, points out in his new book, Over Diagnosed, how we define normal is really in question as well. Do we really think that the “average levels” measured in the last 40 or 50 years in the most expansive period of obesity in recorded human history are – normal?

      I am not suggesting you aren’t B12 deficient (I don’t know), but the tone of the question seems to invoke the response, oh, I need meat to fix this and my response to that is unequivocally – NO, you don’t. If you are eating vegan now and are deficient, then you should correct it. It takes about 3 years or so to become B12 deficient, so a 6 month trial vegan diet probably didn’t cause it. If you’re not eating vegan, I guess you still have the same problem to solve.

      Btw, I am not certain that the opposite approach is unhealthy either – I don’t know what level of meat, refined sugar and oil, or refined carbohydrate is harmful. I just feel confident that these relatively new ubiquitous sources of calories probably aren’t necessary in any great quantity and most likely harmful in large quantities. Note that my list contains no “vegan” foods like oreo cookies. They taste AMAZING, but they are NOT food and should be consumed (if at all) in very limited ways. Better to develop a new decadent food. Some cultures eat termites – what do I know about good?

      But let’s turn to the “meat’ of this comment, because B12 comes from bacteria, not animals. The B12-rich meat recommended as a cure is from animals with exactly the same B12 diet “challenge” you have – they don’t produce B-12 or the essential/indispensable amino acids. So they ingest plants along with dirt that are contaminated with these b-12 producing bacteria. We have an obsession with “clean and sterile” and perhaps that is part of the problem.

      Maybe in managing the things we THINK we need, we inadvertently cut out the things we DON’T know we need. Then later we discover it and add it back in unbelievably ridiculous, but profitable proportions and set it all off balance. I struggle with this with supplements I know work with weight loss – what’s the end game? That’s the same problem with the protein, carbohydrate and fat nonsense that is pervasive now throughout the nutritional, diet, and medical industry.

      Eat food. So far, my N=1 self-experiment “vegan diet” is working.

      hope that helps!!!

      Ray

  9. m d says:

    Hey bro, havent been on here in a long time.
    Good to see your still putting out good work.
    Have you read jack kruses blog?? if you havent it would be right up your alley. I posted the question over there and jack didnt seem to know the answer lets rattle your brain my man.

    Say you have an individual who is already cold adapted and you place a 3 hour thermal load on this person. ( using jacks 3 hour analogy his training session was worth around 3000 calories). Now if this particular individual is contest ready ie under 6 percent body fat, if you were using exercise as a meals to get this 3000 calorie requirement the indivudal would most certainly hit the wall as there isnt enough fat to supply the demands and once glycogen has been depleted they will now be hitting the next best available fuel source muscle.

    Now what happens in the “ancient”, pathway??? what happens to the individual who is shredded, and you dump a 3000 calorie thermal load on this individual, when in the normal pathway ( with no thermal work), as you get lower and lower, the bodys availability to meet energy demands via fat become less and less. For instance a 300 kg man has 10000 fat cells and they can all produce 1 cal worth of energy, he has more then enough availability.

    If he were shredded and only had say 1000 fat cells and he can now only supply 1000 cal worth of energy a day. ( These are just stupid numbers to get my point across)

    So my question is what happens when an individual is at peak body fat conditioning ie < 6 percent body fat and you dump a thermal load on them??? Any ideas ray???

    Now second question, if you have an athlete who is already in contest condition, best methods to adapt?? still follow the ice emersion, is there issues since there is very little fat when cold adapting etc etc.

    Hit me with some thoughts mate

    regards
    mark

    • admin says:

      Mark

      please. please. catch up.

      Sadly, while I was off trying to build a foundation of nutrition to discuss the role of calorie in cold stress/thermogenesis, the thermogenesis world went bonkers and now there are lots of people tossing out complete nonsense.

      If I cared more it would be a real life game of “whack a mole,” but I choose not to engage in debate. It’s been said that people who don’t ascribe to reason can’t be conquered by it.

      I’m sitting here looking at a spreadsheet of in excess of 90 minutes of wim hof submerged in ice. I know this is real – there are pictures and data. Now, when I look at his VO2 data (this is representing the amount of oxygen he’s consuming – directly proportional to the “calories burning”) I see that it changes about 4x or so. Let’s just assume he “normally” is at 100 watts (good number for the average, healthy man). That is about 85 kcal/hour – or an RMR of 2040 Cal (dietary).

      Mine for reference this morning was 66 or about 1600 Cal.

      4x those numbers (the literature says we produce up to 5-6x at full on shivering, but wim wasn’t shivering) is about 340 calories or an order of magnitude below the numbers you are citing. Wim is what I would call extreme and documented. For the record there was not a single time at his house when he left and didn’t grab a coat in February. I know he gets “cold,” but can kick my Alabama ass in ice (because I don’t do that for cold stress).

      Bottom line the numbers are so far askew that you are right to see that it doesn’t add up. A better way to look at the energy is to consider the 140 lbs, lean 10% body fat woman that has 14 lbs of fat or 49,000 calories of stored energy. That’s enough to fuel her for 32 days or run 18 marathons. It’s a LOT of energy. Even at 6% @ 180lbs, you have 10.8 lbs of fat or 37,800. At ~100 cal/mile that’s gets you quite a hike to your next meal. Now, if you own an additional 10, 20, or 50 lbs there is an ENORMOUS amount of energy in there (provided you have plenty of water for hydration).

      Most times when I see mistakes people confuse dietary Calories with thermodynamic calories. A Calorie = a kilocalorie in thermodynamics (or 1000x) The second mistake is confusing RMR, which is a projected average over a 24 hour period with a more precise hourly number. Often when someone looks at the calorie calculator on the treadmill and sees 340 calories they forget they would have burned 70-80 watching it move.

      When it comes to weight loss, I don’t think you have to “adapt” other than physiologically increase peripheral circulation and psychologically mute the fear of “cold.” I also don’t think ice or extreme is necessary. There are GREAT uses for ice baths in therapy and recovery – that’s the totality of most sport medicine’s research on cold stress. It get’s far more complicated with the immune system.

      So, not a big story. I think it’s a lot more simple to implement and doesn’t necessarily require a single ice cube. Cold stress begins in water at 80F/27C and goes on from there.

      What is important is the area under the curve or total time of exposure. That’s where you end up building a good caloric deficit. As well, metabolically there are survival genes that kick in that are identical to caloric restriction. Contrast also matters.

      Reality isn’t always as poetic as beliefs. Many times the simple approach is still the best solution.

      Hope that helps.

      Ray

      • michael mellner says:

        great answer Ray…

      • admin says:

        Thanks. But we’ll let Mark decide. He’s king of this question.

        Honestly, the thermodynamics are more complex (not as a subject, but as a system) than digestion. We don’t have many people wandering around at 100F or 80F too long. It’s a pretty tight existence and way-better controlled than other HPT-axis systems.

        Get out of line and you die. Pretty neat evolution trick.

        Ray

      • Jason Harrison says:

        What does “HPT-axis” mean?

      • admin says:

        Jason

        Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Thyroid Axis. It’s the hormonal center of your metabolic regulation.

        Ray

  10. A A says:

    You are losing a substantial number of people by requiring a sign-in before being able to read your blog. Let’s say you’re left with 1-10 percent of your potential readership.

    I think it’s very strange that you are doing this. You want to promote your blog, but don’t let people read it conveniently.

    Only sites that have a paid subscription model do this, and this is not a paid subscription site.

    The only possible problem will be spam, but that can be managed with technology and moderating.

    A different subject: you could think about putting the entire blog post into the newsletters you are sending out.

    • admin says:

      Thanks for you comment.

      I suspect you are correct and it may not be the conventional approach. A quick survey of most things I’ve done will reveal I don’t typically follow the herd. I don’t have a paid subscription model, but am looking at several possibilities. The question I have for you is whether or not bigger is better? how will that improve anything for you?

      Spam in itself has become a somewhat meaningless word, but I would say that the signal to noise ratio is very good. I don’t have hundreds of comments on every post about rumors or personal attacks from one another. I’m able to be personally engaged with my audience and it is probably MUCH larger than you think. Not a single month since the day I launched has had less subscribers than the previous. In fact there are new users every day – some days 10 others 50, but always more. Some lose interest and unsubscribe, that’s ok. Others read things here and then post to their open forums, that’s ok, provided they give attribution. Some just blindly copy and it’s apparent in the other content on their site that this is all they have to offer.

      As for putting information in a newsletter/email form, I find that those long emails don’t really do it justice and then that also defeats the idea of bringing people to the site – the very notion you were suggesting I needed to fix.

      I have toyed with the fact of opening it up to a larger audience, but not yet. I do understand your perspective and very much appreciate that fact that you 1) want this site to grow and 2) were willing to sign up. Thanks.

      My commitment to the members of this site is post original thought and help cut through the huge amount of inaccurate material that guides so many of us. It too fell into that trap for years. All I ask from you is you register once (you can opt out of my non-spam notifications) and click “remember me” one time on each device you use to access. I have set up that to remember you for 10 years.

      Finally, if you want to donate there is always a voluntarily monthly donation above and a one time at the bottom of each post. I really appreciate that support and thanks to the many that have taken a few minutes to do that (some Both!).

      Hope that helps and thanks. I understand you might want more people here, but then again, a comment like this would have been probably ignored on a site with 2 million followers.

      Ray

      • Jules says:

        Ray,
        Don’t change a thing! It is so refreshing to be on a blog that is not over-populated with “trolls” who seem to have nothing better to do than pick fights and confuse the topic. In fact your comment section reads like an after lecture discussion- I find that worth the 1.5 seconds it takes to sign in.
        Thanks!
        Jules

      • admin says:

        Thanks. Click the remember me and I think the default time is set to a few years.

        It’s a great community and I’ve learned a lot from the questions.

        Ray

      • Jason Harrison says:

        Seconded. I’ve slowly made it through all of the back posts and comments. Worth it.

        Adding a “Start here” link to the first blog post would be great.

      • admin says:

        Good idea. I’ll need to do some summary when I get back. There’s. Ore I’d like to cover, but I’m going to hit cold stress for a while and then come back to food.

        Ray

  11. A A says:

    Thanks for your reply 🙂

    I understand your reasoning.

    The question I have for you is whether or not bigger is better? how will that improve anything for you?

    The ideas you have would become mainstream a little quicker, and so help more people more quickly. And you might also be able to more easily get funding (by whatever means) to do research.

    …maybe I’m strange, but I try to avoid clicking that “remember me” button…

    All the best 🙂

    • admin says:

      Thanks! they are slowly becoming mainstream. People are beginning to think and I am “standing on the shoulder of giants” going back to Atwater.

      Make an exception this once and hit that remember me button.

      oh, and spread the word. Let’ those you know I don’t spam or distribute lists.

      Ray

  12. m d says:

    Hey Ray
    Thanks for the reply and the email, was just busy with training and work the last couple of days, sorry for the late reply.
    Ok so lets delve into this straight up.
    The “1000” calorie an hour thing is indeed very “out there”.
    Love the use of references that you have used relating to the shivering response where you have wim hofs data ect. ( wish i had that sort of data acesss).
    Now as you have stated that most people dont account for the rmr or calories they would have burnt just sitting round, i however was not muffled by that happenstance.
    Using your example of wim the “85 kcal/hour – or an RMR of 2040 Cal (dietary).”
    If you look at say 180 pound guy ( using my calculations his rmr comes out at around 2100 a day as per your example), and you use ian thorpe ( excuse me if im wrong in terms of your moment of thought change i read about, if i have gotten the swimmer wrong), and he is this 180 pound guy and he is swimming for 6 HOURS a day.
    6 hours laps freestyle fast i equate to 817 cal an hour and 4902 calories burned, minus the rmr he would have already had ie 2100 / 24 = 87.5 cal an hour ( RMR ). So 87.5 x 6 = 525
    Therefore 4902 – 525 = 4377 cal burned ( From exercise ).
    So the marvelous swimmer now burnt there 2100 a day ( RMR ), plus the 4377 calories worth of hard back breaking work in the pool.
    Now if you use your 4x normal RMR ( due to shivering or thermo related load), for the 6 hours that would be 87.5 x 4 x 6 = 2100 ( Extra calories from the theremal loading )
    However you must take out again the rmr so it would be 2100 – 6 x 87.5 ( because the normal rmr has already been accounted for ) = 1575 cal from themal loading due to the water.
    SO…. the daily cal requirement would be…
    2100 (RMR) + 4377 ( exercise) + 1575 ( thermal loading using your numbers) = 8052 cal a day !!!!
    A very very large daily total energy expenditure but still a full 4000 cal less then the 12000 calories a day claims made ect, so are these numbers also not askew???
    What are your insights into this???
    Sorry for the rave and math ect.

    Using your logic i do see some sense in the fact that its moreso the time under curve ie “Stress”, that provides the best “Calorie”, benifit from the thermal loading.
    Love your work mate and as always would love a reply, with your thoughts and brainpower.
    Btw a little background so you know where im going with this, its basically an ideal that i have been putting together for a very long time ( a lot of failures), in terms of maintaining a “perfect” version of myself. ie being increadably lean, ( ie. where the under 6% comes from), extremely strong and powerful ect ect.
    I have been there and looked and felt incredible, and i will once again arrive back at the “miricale”, place in the not to distant future. Simple things being i believe that the thermal loading,( even though you keep saying that there is so much more to it then for weight loss and calories ect), will be one of the final pieces of the puzzle, in maintaining the goals i follow. And as you state there is so much bulls$%^ out there that i simply am wading through sewer so to speak.
    Thanks again
    Regards
    Mark

    • admin says:

      Yes… That is the straight total burn of calories based on second law thermo – i.e. transfer of heat. If you really wanted to capture the numbers, add to it the evaporative loss he was experiencing between swims, the obvious physical training, etc… As well, he told me that it was probably closer to 10,000 calories and not every day. Sometimes it was less.

      The other side of that is that RMR is a moving target. When one exercises or does cold exposure, RMR can ramp for hours and an active person can often boost RMR for more time than the physical activity. All in all, when I started digging into this on a spreadsheet, I was able to get within 10% and experimental vs predicted and it validated what I had experienced first hand – so I felt good with my assumptions.

      As I stated last year, I tend to go for longer duration “chronic” cold in the winter. It’s simply not practical here in the summer and so I am experimenting with a swim spa that I can take from 45F up to 104F. I have a 121K BTU heat pump on it and so that’s what this summer is going to be about. As well, I have a full metabolic lab coming my way and this will help me quantify it a little better. More on that later.

      I am not sure <6% should be your goal. Rather, you should figure out a range of acceptable % body fat and know that you'll do better in the winter than the summer. We were probably NOT selected (from an evolutionary perspective) to be lean. That would have countered winter survivability. I fell that me and my pudgy friends are all survivors - the superior ones, because these of little body fat would have starved during the winter fast and caloric scarcity.

      Just keep in mind that these numbers people throw around for ALL exercise are averages (like calories on food) and can vary person to person and activity to activity. Still, like all averages/generalizations they point out GROSS errors (like 3000 calories/hour.

      We can peak our body, but it's not sustainable. Remember also that the body senses differences (temperature, calorie deficit, blood sugar, insulin, leptin...) and so rapid wide swings often cause huge counter feedback loops and failure.

      Ray

  13. michael mellner says:

    hello there Ray again. I always wanted to ask you a tech question about the dropping of temperature of the body when exposed to cold. I think I have seen some details you explained in a post you made back then but don’t remember where it is.
    Anyways, I would like to know what is the rate of body cooling when exposed at certain temperature. for example, when doing a shower at 20°C what is the rate of temperature drop during the minutes of exposing? is there a scheme that you know I can find?

    all the best

    michael

    • admin says:

      The goal is to not let the body cool at all – it stays warm. I prefer contrast for comfort/adaptation. That’s 10 s warm/20s cold and repeat that 10 times. Then on the last cycle you can just stand there for a while. Some users have taken HOUR long showers. Interesting, but it’s not what I am doing. It has to have an impact on metabolism and I will be able to measure that in my lab in the next month or so.

      Hope that helps. Report back what you are doing on the forms above (progress link).

      Ray

  14. mark clark says:

    The aquatic ape thesis makes a lot of sense to me- and it explains why cold water exposure is so beneficial to humans. In a sense, we are now like “fish out of water”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis

    in New Scientist on 17 March 1960. Hardy defined his idea:

    My thesis is that a branch of this primitive ape-stock was forced by competition from life in the trees to feed on the sea-shores and to hunt for food, shell fish, sea-urchins etc., in the shallow waters off the coast. I suppose that they were forced into the water just as we have seen happen in so many other groups of terrestrial animals. I am imagining this happening in the warmer parts of the world, in the tropical seas where Man could stand being in the water for relatively long periods, that is, several hours at a stretch.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/elaine_morgan_says_we_evolved_from_aquatic_apes.html

  15. Abigail Fletcher says:

    I know this is an older post, however I have re-read it recently and I whole heartedly agree with the second brain principal. The comment you made regarding those on the vomit commit being imprinted with the smell = sick sensation really struck a chord. As a child I always suffered from car sickness and even now the smell of a hot car, hot plastic drives me to queasiness.

    On a side note, I have suffered with anxiety all my adult life on and off and whilst there are many mooted reasons and I believe anxiety varies from person to person, since cutting out wheat and more recently dairy, I have not had that feeling of waking up with dread and I cope with the day to day stressful job a LOT better.

    • admin says:

      Interesting. I’m not sure of the diet root, but it’s good to notice.

      If you’ll add contrast showers in the evening (just before sleep) and in the morning when you’re finished, you should see a noticeable uptick in “well being” and mood in 5-7 days. Sleep will also improve greatly.

      Thanks for the comment!

      Ray

  16. Alexandra Road says:

    Ray – OMG I am addicted to your posts. Learning loads from you. Very good science.

    Really intrigued by the Teacher flight….

    Having checked out your Gozerog.com, I bet there is a Weightless Bride story too! LoL

    Anyway, a zero G flight is in my bucket list – now I know I rather not have breakfast that day! 🙂

    I love the way your talk about THEM – “the others”!

    Almost scary, I didn’t know about this. I thought THEY were part of those 10 trillion cells in our bodies. But an added 100 trillion? Mind-blowing….

    I did know that the bacteria in one’s gut weighs about 2-4 lbs. And if you fast for a week, you pretty much get rid of most of them. Or do they shrink?

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