We take a quick break from our macronutrient discussion to talk about some really exciting news in the hypothermics world that showed up in the last two weeks. It’s great when new data shows that old thoughts might be wrong. This one comes from researchers at Harvard Medical School (and a host of other institutions).(1) These scientist discovered a new hormone, irisin, named after the greek goddess iris – the personification of the rainbow and messenger of the gods.
What is most exciting is that this hormone could be another piece of the “calorie” controversy – the irritating paradox of calorie in, calorie out. So let’s take a look at what they found.
Only the Good Die Young
In the past we have discussed the role of the uncoupling protein, UCP1, that instructs the mitochondria to generate excess heat instead of producing ATP. This protein is mediated by another very important co-activator, PGC1-α. You may have heard about it in connection with what are called the Sirtuin proteins. If not, let’s back up and review a little on these before getting into this new discovery.
By regulating the production/activation of this family of molecules, scientist have not only been able to vastly alter obesity in mammals, they also are able to affect animal longevity. You’ve heard of Resveratrol by now and these are the very same metabolic pathways altered by that molecule. (2-4)
Increased PGC-1α expression in skeletal muscle prevents age-associated weight gain and improves exercise capacity during aging. (A) Comparison of mice expressing the PGC-1α transgene in skeletal muscle (MCK-PGC-1α) and wild-type littermates (control) at different ages. (B and C) Lean and fat mass of 22-month-old wild-type and PGC-1α animals as determined by DEXA scans, (D) Relative hindlimb mass of 22-month-old wild-type and PGC-1α animals (E) Treadmill performance test at different ages for wild-type and PGC-1α animals; Source: Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2009 Dec 1;106(48):20405-10. Epub 2009 Nov 16.
For example, if you look the the photo to the right, you’ll see a pair of mice. One mouse (left), was genetically modified to have enhanced PGC1-α and compared to a normal control mouse (right). Just a scan of the photos and you will quickly see that the modified mouse ages “gracefully.” Its control cage-mate gets plump like the rest of us even though it’s in the same environment. The genetically modified mouse stays healthy.
It doesn’t stop there. Take a look at graph “E” to on the bottom right. That is the difference in performance of Treadmill tests (I wonder if they used Livestrong?). Look at the difference of performance at 22 months! Like a fine red wine, these mice get better with age. In addition to the lack of weight gain and increased running skills, these mice showed no age-related bone loss or insulin resistance and the typical systemic inflammatory response was mitigated.
Despite what people might say, you’re not going to get these results from drinking red wine (sorry), but these are incredible first steps to unlocking the mystery of aging and metabolic syndrome.
Message to My Blubber
The new research identifying the irisin hormone is just as exciting. This hormone was hidden as part of a much larger molecule and these researchers were able to isolate it. Irisin is secreted as a result of exercise in both these transgenic (modified) mice and Humans. It turns out that this is way for the muscle to “communicate’ with the forming white adipose cells, signaling them to become the more energetic brown adipose tissue (BAT). The concentration of this hormone jumped sharply after exercise (Human and mice).
The researchers went a step further.
By doing experiments in cultures, they discovered that nano molar levels (tiny amounts) of this hormone cause a 50-fold increase in the UPC1 protein. When delivered in vivo (in the animal) they still saw a 10-20 fold increase of in UCP1, which resulted in an increased energy expenditure and improvement in the glucose tolerance of mice fed a high fat diet. But a nagging question remained. What purpose would be served by a hormone being released in response to exercise that INCREASED energy consumption? One might thing that the opposite would be true – evolution would dictate conservation of energy.
Cavemen Didn’t Exercise
A long time before 5-toe shoes and grown men (and women) running through NYC Central Park beating their chest and throwing boulders, we were far more like the bird sitting on your back porch (unless you are looking at a pigeon – they don’t count); we starved. If you look all around you and ignore domesticated animals (including pigeons and rats), you will find that every animal is starving. They live to eat every day and it is a struggle to find calorie. It is THE struggle that anthropologist are still trying to unravel with Humans.
Where did we get the energy to become the modern-day intellectual giant?
You should see the conflict. If we were starving and now find that a hormone is released in response to strenuous activity, which turns energy storing white fat into energy burning brown fat, that would be a NEGATIVE not a positive evolutionary trait. The quest to find food would be a downward energy spiral.
Ah, but we really had no reason to run through the park or roll giant tires around. Why would our ancestors need to exercise? It turns out that there is one activity that WOULD cause a lot of muscle activity, yes it’s shivering. It was a way for animals to keep warm and in response to the biological stress of cold, muscle secreting a hormone to create more BAT to keep warm was a GOOD thing. It meant staving off hypothermia.
A further interesting fact is that PGC1-α was originally discovered by scientists, because it was unregulated by cold exposure. We also know that in addition to caloric restriction, mild cold stress is the only other way that we have demonstrated longevity in mice. Even more exciting is that recent tests (unpublished) have show a nearly 5-fold increase of BAT output of a 52 year old man vs 20 year old controls. This increase was even though they had similar levels of BAT, so there is even more energy to tap into. You can adapt and cause increased metabolic activity.
Un-wrapping it All
I think we are seeing just the tip of where all of this is going. In the last decade we have moved from the idea that we lose all of our BAT with aging, to we have a fixed amount of BAT, to now understanding there are hormonal mechanisms to create new BAT. Further the exact pathways that are responsible for longevity through caloric restriction also are affected by mild cold stress. These systems respond to biological stress of starvation and cold, like a muscle responds to the stress of weight training, by creating a more resilient biology.
Mild cold stress does not have to be miserable, or even cold. It can come in a lot of different forms. In the David Agus new Book, The End of Illness, he discusses at great length the role of inflammation in aging. He even gives an example of a one of his “all-star” cancer patients. Diagnosed with prostate cancer at the age of nearly 80, he decided to make a life changes that include swimming every day. He is now almost 90 and doing incredible.
I have documented the profound ability to thermal load through swimming. In addition we know that mild cold stress starts in warm water (27C/80F). Today we have learned that a hormone has been identified that is not only increases PGC1-α, it’s causes all the benefits of longevity seen through sirtuin activation. It’s exciting to see this all come together and I know we’ll only learn more. This is not the ice cube diet or really even “freeze your ass off,” it’s a basic adaptation with millions of years of evolutionary excellence.
Turn the heater off, go for a walk, let go of a few layers, move, or just swim – do something. You have nothing to lose and we all look funny as hell in shorts, gloves and face masks. If laughter is the best medicine, worse case is you’ll make someone live longer by laughing.
Ray
(1) Boström PA, et al., “PGC1-α-dependent myokine that drives brown-fat-like development of white fat and thermogenesis,” Nature. 2012 Jan 11. doi: 10.1038/nature10777. [Epub ahead of print]
(2) Wenz T, et al. “Increased muscle PGC-1alpha expression protects from sarcopenia and metabolic disease during aging,”Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2009 Dec 1;106(48):20405-10. Epub 2009 Nov 16.
(3) Tong Shi, et al. “SIRT3, a Mitochondrial Sirtuin Deacetylase, Regulates Mitochondrial Function and Thermogenesis in Brown Adipocytes,” J. Biol. Chem., Vol. 280, No. 14, Issue of April 8, pp. 13560–13567, 2005
(4) Marcia C. Haigis and Leonard P. Guarente, “Mammalian sirtuins—emerging roles in physiology, aging, and calorie restriction,” Genes Dev. 2006 20: 2913-2921.
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Love it. Some of the research looks a tad mousey, but I’ll keep the cold going for now.
LOL! thanks mark….
Great news Ray! On the way to work this morning- the number one radio station in Louisville, Ky was doing a new story on the Canadian research on BAT. Keep telling the message….
Cheers, Hunter
Thanks!
Kind of crazy how a silly little act of desperation intersected with some incredible science.
Who knew?
Ray
Face mask? Are you kidding? I don’t even wear one for skiing, what for?
Gloves are the first thing I take off when I notice that I get too warm. I find they are the most bothersome part of clothing that exist.
That is probably part of your problem with tolerating cold. You do this in reverse. The face staying warm is counter to the mammalian dive reflex:
1) Heart rate slows
2) Blood flow to extremities constricted
3) Blood and water allowed to pass through organs and circulatory walls to chest cavity.
As these happen a series of reflexes (flight or flee) are the difference between comfort and misery. By taking off hands next, you allow the already poor circulation to worsen, creating even less flow to the hands. Ears are also a big feedback loop as are the nose and toes (feet). Note that all of these are also the first place frostbite sets in if too much time lapses.
Gloves before sweater, make you look better. As you get warm, you want to remove the torso layers allowing the heat to escape, while reassuring the brain that it’s “okay.” You won’t set off the domino effect of cascading vascular panic and you will allow your body to naturally dump heat. If not overheated, the cold (when other symptoms are warm) will trigger non-shivering thermogenesis to kick in. These are the very metabolic pathways I describe above – up regulating and recruiting the mitochondria to produce heat instead of ATP.
Give it a try. You will look and feel silly, but you will be surprised at just how much cold you can comfortably tolerate.
Ray
Thanks for the well thought out and written response to the quick comment. I know I wasn’t the original there, but reading that was quite helpful.
So cool my trunk, but keep heat in my hands to achieve better results?
Masking your “symptoms” will help you tolerate cooler temperatures without body going into panic mode.
Ray
So how about this as a routine:
Sleep on top of covers
Wake – down about 40 oz ice water. Put on gloves, facemask, warm socks, shorts, light tee shirt, go for a 1/2hr walk.
Return – down 40 more oz ice water.
Commute to work with air conditioning on (in Winter) until shivering.
Work normal day
Come home – 40 more oz ice water
Cold shower before bed (I really like this)
Twice a week – an ice bath after an intense weight lifting workout
It this too much cold? Not enough? Do tell.
Our local pool only has 84º water. Not enough for chill, so I’m doing this. Plenty of cold outside this time of year in Northeast
I don’t think so, but your body is the judge.
No need to air condition on commute – just enjoy the season. It’s not about extreme. It’s a little over a long time. Who knows we may respond like trees that bloom after a cold soak. Not Litterally, but we simply can’t eliminate seasonal caloric restriction and mild cold stress as a variable – both induce real biomarkers changed and both were unavoidable for most of the 7 million year past. It’s really only the last century that we saw significant change with the addition of transportation and refrigeration.
Winter never comes. Neither does hunger. We know what happens if we over eat or under exercise. I think moderate exposure will be healthy. There’s always the chance of overdoing it.
Ray
Solid response Ray. Glad I came to the blog.
To be healthy,a human should be lean.There are a few ways to achieve it.By eating less and natural foods,by excersize,by thermal loadinig.Wich is superior?
Absolutely all three! We know that without proper nutrition, nothing else matters. That becomes the foundation for health. We see it in our blood biomarkers,joints, skin, hair, and eyesight. Weight (excess body fat) is just the part everyone else notices. This is the fallacy of media (and some phsician’s) coverage of thermal loading – they forget the foundation. Taken to optimum health, caloric restriction likely makes us more resilient.
Exercise is key to having healthy muscle mass and good respiratory/circulatory function. We need sun for vitamib D production and know that sun tans “look great,” but is too much for skin health. Certainly the upper end of body building probably is no healthier, even if done absolutely clean – no drugs or processed food. Few do. Not condemning it, just saying that too much can be bad. This weeks New England Journal of medicine has an article on the three men that exercise induced coronary-plaque rupture after the marathon. Of the 500,000 that ran in 2011, chance was 1 in 50,000. There is too much.
Thermal loads are demonstrated to activate longevity genes. They provided a mild biological stress that is similar (perhaps a forerunner) to modern exercise. We don’t know the long term impact or fully understand the mechanisms. Short term they provide a relatively passive way to create more caloric deficit.
So eating, moving and cooling are all healthful and I believe synergistic.
Ray.
Exercise
Hey Ray,
Have you ever heard of taking bitter melon extract to increase BAT production/activity? I found this article in the journal of nutrition:
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/11/2517.full
It’s a little too scientific for me, but maybe there is some useful information there you can extract for your next piece on BAT. Even if it helps a little, the added effects on top of what people are already doing should be a nice bonus.
Thanks for all your work
Jason
Hey Jason…
About 2 months ago someone else brought it up and I started to research. I never finished – thanks for putting it up. It’s interesting, because it does all play into the same role.
What is actually going on is not BAT being produced, but rather the bitter melon activates what you have.
Great stuff. I will look more closely and you’ll likely see a post.
Ray
I’ve recently read through your many posts and have found your reasoning to be interesting and thought-provoking. I like your open-minded approach in dealing with many different diets and the understanding that caloric restriction is the idea that seems to tie all weight-loss schemes together. Your premise of eating calorie-poor, nutrient dense foods makes a lot of sense to me, and I’m eager to see your real-world meal examples.
My question is family related. I’m a dad with a 2.5 year old son and a 3 month old daughter who is being nursed by my wife. It seems to me like we are all in different places as far as our dietary needs (maintaining weight vs. growing vs. feeding). Do you have any thoughts on how to approach our food habits as a family?
Thanks
The answer is, yes. I have three children as well. They don’t always want to eat what I do and I don’t force them. Over time I see them becoming more curious and asking. It takes 10-15 times of trying anything to really love a food and one very miserable experience to believe you hate it.
Your question strikes at the very heart of my central quest for the last two years. Its more important than thermal loading (glad I don’t have to make a choice!) to me.
When I finish the macronutrients blogs I’m going to roll out my ideas. I’m hoping that through membership and donations I can convert this to full time.
Keep watching. Few things are about to be released!
Thanks for your comments. I can’t stress how much I agree.
Ray
Ray, started swimming with caloric resriction and have lost 4 lbs. of fat per week. I’m curious what is the formula for calculating calories lost through thermal loading? I swim 4-5 times a week for about 45 minutes and am able to swim 1-1.25 miles. I can’t quite calculate and seperate calories burned through activity vs. heat loss. Would also like to calculate calories lost to 50* cold bath for 20 minutes. Thanks!
Fantastic! Congratulations on the progress. It turns out since you’re activating survival metabolic pathways, a simple heat transfer is not the complete picture. It’s ok to consider for ROM estimates, but it will be difficult to know exactly with out measuring your metabolism.
I know that your swimming induces a ramped up burn for 2-4 hours, but more importantly it seems to act counter to your body and negate the natural survival response to weight loss, which signals store energy. When we overest we keep up slowly in weight and the with a sudden loss the body panics. It doesn’t know if you’re fat or not. That triggers gain and yo-yo. the cool soaks work in the same way and I’d do those before bed if you can. If you swim early, this would maximize the benefit. Btw…what’s the swim water temperature?
What you are doing now should not only push the rapid loss you’ve seen, but also help you KEEP it off with a reasonable diet. You won’t dive down into metabolic syndrome. It works on all caloric restrictive methods (paleo,Atkins, zone, etc…), but I’m finding blood biomarkers are best with a mostly plant-based diet.
Keep it up. Please submit measurements on the progress tab above!!!!
Thanks and great job!!!
Ray
I haven’t taken a temp of the pool…it is in a gym so my guess is low 80’s (it feels somewhat cool when you get in at first). I’ll see if I can’t get a thermometer into the pool soon.
Just had a baby so I have stopped tracking calories on myfitnesspal as the last week has been hectic (no swimming either). Have still lost 1.5lbs. during the week.
I will remeasure and start tracking more closely again next week. I am interested in the physics of calorie burn due to temp difference. Any recommended sites to read about? I can’t find too many and the ones that do discuss heat flows are more concentraded in engineering (my degree is in quantative finance).
Congratulations!!!
..typically competitive water is 80/82F, for water fitness classes it jumps to 84F and in with infant classes, 86F (miserable to swim). Just 6 degrees are the difference between thermal neutral and uncomfortable – this because of the thermal conductivity of the water and the thermal capacitance.
On heat transfer, you can do a simple one dimensional approach using Fourier’s Law with water-skin:skin-fat:Fat-muscle and then xmm into the muscle. Use thermal conductivities of .34, .21, and .5 (watts/m^2/C) for skin, fat and muscle (respectively).
1.8 m^2 is a good place to start and I ended up estimating with cylinders and spheres to make it a little more accurate. The problem of course is that when the body vasodilates, the blood bypasses the subcutaneous adipose tissue and it goes directly to skin surface to dump heat.
That is the case of sitting still in water and it really is not very effective – outside of the BAT/Thermoregulating hormonal boosts. WHen you are active, swimming or some quick sets of push ups/pullups in the tub soak, The body dumps the heat out for some time, but MORE important is the contrast therapy from dilation to non dilation. I will explain more in the ebook. You can train your body to ignore the flight or flee and allow blood to flow to the skin even in cooler environments.
Hope that helps. If it were REALLY exciting, I would tell you to dive in…but as much as I love that stuff, the body is way to smart and fortunately, it makes implementation MUCH easier than everyone thinks…
Ray
I am very similar to you and have tried everything over the years. My highest weight was 235 at one point. These days I range between 185 and 210 on a never-ending roller coaster ride of up and down weight gain in this range. It is that damn Lizard in my brain goes crazy and I indulge in a feeding frenzy for weeks until my higher order brain takes over again and gets me back on track. I hit 210 this December and I am now back to 195. I am doing the cold baths (my wife thinks I am crazy) and the ice packs and I do believe it is working. I have lowered my caloric intake as well and am exercising nearly every day. However, what you say is true – I cannot outrun my mouth. So I am hoping that the cold regimen will give me a new tool that will allow me to win this battle for the long term. Additionally, your assessment of carbs and fats makes a lot of sense. This is kind of what Weight Watchers is built on focusing on caloric intake but letting you eat whatever you want. And it is quite effective to a degree – until the Lizard strikes again.
Although I do not have the book I am doing some of the other 4-hour plan stuff from what I’ve picked up on the web – like 30 grams of protein in the morning. But other than the hypothermic therapy I am not sure where you stand with the 4-hour plan.
Also – after I do the 10 minutes in the tub – should I exercise right afterwards? Should I not exercise at all that day? I read that you should only do the cold baths 3 times a week – can I do it more than that and get even better results? Do I do the ice packs every day? Do you provide any of these guidelines any where?
Tony,
congratulations on the progress. More importantly, realizing what the limits are and knowing your behavior patterns. I lived oblivious to mine for yours and many never really get there, so you are ahead of the game.
The way I addressed it was to switch to a nutrient dense/calorically poor diet. It is mostly vegan. I’m not opposed to eating meat, but since I LOVE…LOVE to eat, I found that this allowed me to royally pig out and not gain.
I didn’t do the cold bath routine that Tim has in his book – I followed a much more intense chronic cold stress – living at a lower temperature environment. The Slow carb approach (any high protein approach) works through starvation. I am working on the protein blog now – so look for one this week. It’s very effective to lose weight, but makes me feel sluggish. The other extreme works well too, take out the meat, fat and dairy and carb-up. Both will allow for satiety and controlling appetite.
Have you tried swimming? That is a VERY effective way to shed the pounds.
Feel free to email me directly and let’s see if there are a few things we can work out for you. I am collecting data now for a few media outlets and so this might help us both?
Ray
I like the baths because its easy (yes we all want the easy way out). It would be great to email you. I think you have my email when I signed up. Please send me an email and I will reply. Unless you want to give me your email address directly. I couldn’t find it on the site.
Yes I read that you are a vegan and I do love vegetables but I am not going to give up meat. I did that for 17 years and I think that is enough. But I am more than willing to make vegetables the majority of what I consume.
Again, I think the majority of us need something we can easily do with minimal impact to our lives. I know that is a tall order but I think that is the only way to make it work for the masses.
Tony
Correction. I’m not a vegan, I eat a vegan diet.
🙂
Ray
Concerning the last post, do you recommend pushups/pullups/sweating before hopping into a cold environment like a shower or bath or pool? The body dumps more heat that way? But in addition the contrast is even more important?
Ferriss referred to this in his Japan TV Pilot. Going from Hot to Cold and back increase the white blood cells for healing, or some such thing.
Getting close to the contrast benefit? Or do we have to wait for the ebook?
joe
Joe
I am trying it both ways. I have much more accurate metabolic equipment now and I am seeing how intervals play into the effectiveness (swimming/weight training). My gut tells me that it’s good as the contrast forces circulation to the skin and that is what all my work has been on in the last year. I am SO sorry that it’s taken this long on the e-book. I’ve simply been overwhelmed with “other (paying) duties.”
Email me directly and I can give you a few things to try – if you will take data.
Ray
I enjoyed reading your blog. I’m getting ready to “jump in” so I can’t wait for more guidance from your upcoming e-book.
I just spotted this article http://yhoo.it/ygNsPv
Doctors at the hospital said humans would normally be able to survive for about four weeks without food. Besides eating snow, the man probably survived by going into a dormant-like state, physician Stefan Branth told Vasterbottens-Kuriren.
“A bit like a bear that hibernates. Humans can do that,” he said. “He probably had a body temperature of around 31 degrees (Celsius) which the body adjusted to. Due to the low temperature, not much energy was used up.”
Ok, so I’ve recently read 4HB and started taking 15minute cold showers every day. It takes some getting used to, and I can feel an adrenaline rush in the morning, followed by a higher body temperature all day (“Is anyone else hot in here?”). So, I can feel my body adapting. However, I’ve always been a little more cold adapted than everyone else.
But today I experienced something truly bizarre. After not taking Niacin for many months, for some reason I decided to take it this morning, about 30 minutes before popping into the shower. When my skin was flush and hot, the cold water was unbearable. I managed it for about 5 minutes, and I was shaking too violently to continue. Shivers have not normally been part of my cold shower experience, and I’ve never had such magnitude of ridiculous shivers in my life.
Niacin brings the blood to the skin surface, while your body’s cold response is trying to pull the blood towards the core. So I imagine my blood temperature was effected more dramatically than a “normal” cold shower.
So, my question is, do you think this is a way to emphasize the cold shower, or, possibly, exaggerate the health benefits of Niacin? Do you think it’s possible to overdose on cold shower in this way? It was a very extreme experience. I believe it had a much larger metabolic shock than normal.
Hi, Ray; Just wanted to put this study on this post. I can only access the summary, would love to see the whole study. Have you read much about the melatonin-BAT activation connection?
Tim
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-789X.2010.00756.x/abstract;jsessionid=2CBACA76EADCB416B16C710DD93437A7.d02t01?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+17+March+from+10-14+GMT+%2806-10+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance&userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=
Summary
A worldwide increase in the incidence of obesity indicates the unsuccessful battle against this disorder. Obesity and the associated health problems urgently require effective strategies of treatment. The new discovery that a substantial amount of functional brown adipose tissue (BAT) is retained in adult humans provides a potential target for treatment of human obesity. BAT is active metabolically and disposes of extra energy via generation of heat through uncoupling oxidative phosphorylation in mitochondria. The physiology of BAT is readily regulated by melatonin, which not only increases recruitment of brown adipocytes but also elevates their metabolic activity in mammals. It is speculated that the hypertrophic effect and functional activation of BAT induced by melatonin may likely apply to the human. Thus, melatonin, a naturally occurring substance with no reported toxicity, may serve as a novel approach for treatment of obesity. Conversely, because of the availability of artificial light sources, excessive light exposure after darkness onset in modern societies should be considered a potential contributory factor to human obesity as light at night dramatically reduces endogenous melatonin production. In the current article, the potential associations of melatonin, BAT, obesity and the medical implications are discussed.
Hi Ray,
maybe you answered these before and you can just point me in the right direction (a FAQ?!):
1. is it more better? a. colder? b. longer immersions?
2. is it there a point of diminishing returns?
thanks
1. is it more better?
It depends on goals. Chronic, mild cold stress is good for racking up a caloric deficit and changing the body at a hormonal level. Cold stress begins at 80F/27C water (about 2.4x RMR) and about 60F/15C air. The mistake everyone makes (I did too) is to whip PI the calculator and do a straight heat transfer calculation. That negates the overall hormonal changes that occur. Still, doubling your RMR for weeks on end has a great effect.
a. colder?
There are some contrast therapies (especially with sport injury/recovery) that are greatly benefitted by cold/ice. It’s not necessary to ramp your metabolism. Using the calculation I refer to above one must melt/warm to body temp 66 lbs of ice to burn the calories in 1 lb of fat. At full on thermogenic output (shivering included) one gets to about 5x RMR. BAT is recruited far before the extreme an even as a response to exercise.
b. longer immersions?
Cooler, longer immersions with swimming are fantastic. The advantage of working out in water is improved endurance. You reduce heart load due to the buoyancy of the blood/body in water, but increase respiratory effort by increased diaphragm pressure due to hydrostatic head. Effectively offloading heart with increased respiratory effort = increased cardio performance.
2. is it there a point of diminishing returns?
Yes. Don’t be miserable. Sitting shivering in extremely cold environments is probably excessive. That being said most people are warm adapted. You’ll never learn to run 10 miles without a little effort. Same for cold stress. Even at 50-55F (where pain begins) its typically gone within 2 minutes.
When I do a few tests, I’ll post the results and you’ll see all of this.
Thanks for the comment!
Ray
Hi Ray,
thank you for answering. It seems that one of my sins is turning into an advantage. I always enjoyed loooong baths. Soaking for 1 hour is a short one 🙂 I begun the hypothermics 2 days ago while reading 4HB. Wasn’t sure which are the rules so I indulged every evening reading for 1 hour in a 24-27°C (cold tap water in Munich). I was shocked when in the first morning I’ve seen that I am 1,2kg lighter. This morning I got the second shock: 1,8kg.
Now, I am wondering what will happen if I will spend 2h (and then 3, 4, 5) in the bathtube…
BTW. if you are visiting Munich and need a guide (or just a friendly face) don’t hesitate to contact me.
cheers,
Eugen
Lol well, I’ve been showering in that same water. Just traveled from Titisee/Neustadt to Rüdesheim. I would say you need to take advantage of these INCREDIBLE cool lakes and go for swimming.
There are some fabulous gorges with glacier water run-off.
No problems with what you are doing, but a good contrast shower (10s20s 10x hot/cold) followed by a good cold soak will be exhilarating.
I’ve been taking in tons of German side dishes and thinking through ways of making them more healthy.
Thanks for the post!
Ray
Ray,
I’m new here, but here goes. I’ve been doing cold baths (90 gal tank – 54 deg. F water) for 10 to 15 min. per day for about 2 months. I love it. In addition to just sitting there I dump water over my head with a pitcher and listen to music from my ipad in my garage. I know I’m the only guy in my town doing this. I’m a crossfit trainer and avid golfer. I plan to go coatless this winter (ave. temp 20 deg. F). I am looking for immune building, fatloss and age reversal. I’m 56 yet often told I look 40 something. I eat Paleo and have done Dr. Kruse’s leptin reset and sleep easily 7-8 hours per night.
Thanks for your blogs, very insightful!!
Ok,
Any evidence that BAT activation occurs AFTER the cold stimulus? The evidence is pretty good that energy expenditure increases DURING cold exposure. What about after?
Dr.Mike
Yes… I am
🙂
more soon.
Ray
Hey Ray
Any experience or research on the link between cold exposure & testosterone? A month in to cold showers,etc & my sex drive has diminished considerably….I know generally T is supposed to increase with cold but I’m wondering if maybe the cold is burning out my adrenal glands or something (I have a very physical high stress job). Also, being an avid Tim F. fan, he recommends cycling (not in the biking sense) sometimes, so the body doesn’t acclimate and become less responsive….any thoughts on that?
Thx! Rich
I don’t know. I usually go for the simple explanations. I think we have lots of people out there with many multi-sylable words and at the end of the day it’s just the food we eat. Chronic over nutrition.
Circulation should IMPROVE, but you need to do contrast showers, not cold. That’s why I don’t just do a constant water bath, because the combination of vasoconstriction/dilation seems to be important.
Will have some more data soon with metabolism posts.
Ray
Ray,
Just read the Wired Magazine article while traveling on a 10 hour plane trip. I am very interested in what you are doing because of past experience. I had to endure a period (8 hours) of shivering, through bad planning, during a motorcycle trip. It wasn’t painful and i stopped often to eat and warm up. Lost 6 lbs even after eating too much (3 meals) at burger joints. I am a cheap tourist.
Like you of years past, i exercise (jog and weights) 3 times a week but cannot seem to get below 210.
I am now thinking that if i keep the 3X a week exercise, walk 3+ miles daily and soak in 65 F water for an hour every day, I am hoping I might get somewhere. I do not have a cool pool but can do a cold bath for one hour. Does this make sense?
I am local to you, so if you need someone who is 215 lbs (where i should be 190) to run studies on, let me know. I understand at a high level at what you are doing and think this could be a game changer for people like me. I am also an engineer so i love the idea of being part of something like this.
Ray,
I have access to a walk in freezer. Temps are -6 f. If wearing shorts, wool socks, shorts, no shirt gloves, and ear muffs, will there be a benefit, and how long would I need to stand in the freezer?
Thanks for all your help.
Hi Mr Cronise,
Thank you soooo much for your work.
I’m at a loss on the results I’ve gotten since I read you and think I must’ve missed something (I’m French, my English is iffy).
Maybe I’m putting the pack wrong? I’m buying standard US packs, and apply horizontally at scapula level. Should it be vertical? Should I make the bag bendable so that I can cover my shoulders?
I’ve also been doing:
– 0.5 ice water on empty stomach
– ice pack 4-5 times a week for about an hour, between 11pm-1am, for 30-60 minutes each time for 2 months.
– PAGG for 6 weeks (I stopped to see if they were causing the fogginess and distractiveness that seem to coincide).
– 30/30 + SCD “vegan version” 4 months + kiwi protocole 2 months + cream for a month
…I see changes in my abs and arms (i.e. not where I wanted them) but same/more weight, 2% decrease in body fat.
I have hypotheses on where I screwed up for the last 3, but feel like PAGG + ice should’ve been enough to yield better results.
As a girl who’s always tried to watch her weight, I remember distinctly the day our middle school biology teacher explained the highest energy expenditure was on maintaining body temperature. And didnt quite get why no one else started training themselves to wear less layers. 20 years later I’m the odd ball who’s never cold. It’s really good to have a big brain’s validation 🙂 I’m also passing my medical boards in the US (have them in France) and totally plan on follow your tracks in elucidating metabolism.
In the mean time, you’ve made more impact on people’s lives then most doctors I met, congratulations and again, thank you.
I’m hereby giving you my personal Ariane Nobel Prize in Medicine 🙂
Respectfully,
Ariane KM
Oh wow, that’s really long, sorry.
Considering that women are, hands-down, the best fat storage devices ever (ask me~LoL):
I wonder if mild cold stress is going to have the same effect on women. I also wonder if someone already thought about that and somebody somewhere is working to ensure data is gathered in order to answer these (hah) “burning” questions. Your thoughts?
🙂 my women and men clients lose weights at nearly identical rates when they are similar sized.
Perhaps a better way to frame it is that when the first adipose accumulates on women it’s typically not the abdomen and it’s not nearly as stressful. Ultimately the extra 10-30 many believe is normal is not and as an endocrine organ it’s hormonally active and contributes to metabolic dysfunction.
We aren’t broken.
Ray
Hi Ray! It sure felt that way when i began~ I’m glad to hear it’s not just that women have a harder time burning fat. (or my stubborn Italian genetics LOL) I’ve been following a plant-based diet to the letter for over 3 months & my weight loss had been stalled since mid-October; that is, until i came across your blog, showing me the LIGHT! NOW the fat is definitely burning off more quickly because i’m eating only between 12 and 6 pm, hanging out in a tank top n’ shorts all day, drinking ice water & taking at least 500 mg cayenne pepper each day. So far, 6 lbs in one week. I REALLY want to do a water-only fast to burn the rest quickly and reboot! Saving my pennies for a trip to see Dr. G!! Maybe i will get to shake your hand one day (or give you a giant hug!) 😀 Impatiently waiting for that book!
I saw the interview with Ray Cronise. I’m not going vegan, but am interested in Thermogenix. Unfortunately I carry the Gene FTO rs1421085 (C,T) which means I have decreased thermogenesis. I wonder what I can do other than cold therapy can I do to improve my thermogenesis so I won’t be so cold all the time. I live with my daughter and son-in law, so turning up the thermostat is not an option.