I’m not much of a swimmer, but I want to be. In 2011 it is a major personal fitness goal to try to swim more frequently. The interesting irony is that I was in the pool and spa industry for about a decade and yet I wasn’t ever a swimmer. Most are not; in fact, health and fitness isn’t very common in the industry at all. There seems to be more focus on fountains than fitness.
It’s the first day of summer here the the Northern Hemisphere…to all of the readers in the Southern part of the world, you are in the thermal loading sweet spot right now – enjoy.
My initial thoughts of thermal loading came from a detailed analysis of Michael Phelps and his enormous caloric intake. I was able to talk to him for a few minutes this fall and finally thank him for the inspiration.
If you google “weight loss and swimming,” you’ll find site after site that indicates swimming is bad for losing weight or that swimmers tend to put on body fat. I’ve done an exhaustive literature review and I am confident that both of these assertions are wrong. Most of the quotes comparing swimming, running and cycling find their root in an 1987 study by Gwinup (1). In it, he compares the three activities in the absence of caloric restriction or monitoring of any kind.
Essentially this study followed moderately obese women in one of three activities, walking, stationary bicycle, and swimming over a 6 month period. This is probably one of the most extensively cited papers I have seen. The results were that walking and cycling caused a drop in weight and swimmers actually gained. It is astounding that it’s been 24 years ago and not much more has been completed.
The problem with the study as I see it is they didn’t ask the people to restrict diet in any way. If in fact swimming could result in a greater caloric burn due to the thermal load of the water, couldn’t that explain the increase hunger? If they were not instructed on how to specifically counter this, would that account for the weight gain? This is generally applied to everyone, but wouldn’t someone that is applying swimming as part of a comprehensive diet/exercise program understand they had to keep calories restricted?
It is plausible to expect that the additional drain of energy from the thermal load of the water could cause the body to signal hunger. Remember, the body regulates heat (energy) not temperature, so we might expect the body to simply turn on the hunger mechanism in response to the energy deficit caused by increased heat drain. Most importantly, might we expect that armed with this knowledge, we could turn off, or resist, this hunger trigger with proper diet and nutrition?
I believe the answer is yes.
Gappmaier (2) had some VERY harsh words in 2006 retort to the oft-cited Gwinup paper. He felt that while the data Gwinup suggested from his study might substantiate the opinion offered, the other labs cited in the paper have never published any data/papers supporting it. Gappmaier’s view was that most of the research on modes of aerobic exercise had gone into the cardiorespiratory changes, not weight loss. In the end, Gwinup didn’t control the very variable that was necessary to draw his conclusions, nevertheless, it has been cited over and over for the last 24 years.
Gappmaier found that with similar frequency, duration, and intensity, swimming results are comparable in terms of weight loss. This parity is good news, but of course it likely is based on a relatively warm and consistent water temperature and that is where I think the big opportunities to boost the results reside going forward.
In the last year, I really wanted to find a better way to thermal load in the summer. As well, I wanted to know exactly what the truth is concerning water thermal conductivity and the Human body’s loss of thermal energy (calories). There is no doubt it happens, but there is a question of rate. A somewhat exhaustive review of the literature on the thermoregulatory side found that the simple one dimensional math model I outlined two years ago gave a pretty good fit to actual Human data of the 50s & 60s.
This data was collected to assess macronutrient requirements of military personnel in a cold stress environment; ironically they were studies on how to keep weight on, not lose it. I know it works, but what are the best methods and how quickly can one lose?
I’ve talked with MANY people following both the TEDMED talk and 4HB and I am astonished at just how much fear we have of cold as a society. In fact, the fear is so great that people often interpret “cool” as cold and begin to bundle at what was a very comfortable room temperature just a few years ago.
Over that last 2 months I have been putting in a new lab and looking at methods to better assess my own progress. Taking one for the “Team” out there, I put about 12 lbs on and want to take it off (with interest) using a solid diet/nutrition plan and swimming. I now have the capability to go down to 45F/7C water temperature for swimming in a swim spa…we’ll see how brave I get.
What I know for sure is that there are studies that seem to verify increased hunger associated with swimming. All of the other references you see, in one way or another, lead back to Gwinup 87. The vast majority don’t control diet at the same time and suggest that increase hunger makes swimming a futile process for weight loss.
I am not buying it.
I have spoken to so many ex-swimmers that rave about weight loss when getting back into the water. The thermal models say it should work. Most importantly, swimming is probably one the very few physical activities that one can do for a lifetime. You can start at any age or level of fitness and if it IS hot and sticky, it’s a fantastic way to relax.
I still need your help in part of this. I am going to begin collecting data in the next few weeks. Part of what I really need to add to all of the current equipment is a thermal imager. Be sure to click the voting widget up and to the right and I’ll be sending out requests soon in attempts to get this funded.
So, if you are a swimmer, get your suit on and dive in…even BETTER if you are a swimmer going into winter in the southern hemisphere >grin<. I’ll be subjecting myself to even more extreme self-experiments over the coming months and will report back what I learn.
If you haven’t learned to swim- I feel your pain. I too had an incredibly difficult time getting instruction as an adult. I wasn’t afraid of water (once an avid scuba diver), just didn’t know how to “swim laps;” thanks goes out to Al Bayhi @ iSport.com. If you are in the Bay-area, this guy is THE best.
After much personal study of the Total Immersion techniques, as Tim describes in 4HB, I was able to move from zero ability to swimming comfortably over a 5 day period, 3 hours of instruction a day. It was sort of a brutal immersion, but I REALLY learned a lot. From the aches and pains it is clear to me that I exerted a lot of physical energy during the process.
Swimmin is a great compliment to whatever exercise/diet program you are doing, so get into the swim of things and shed some unwanted body fat.
1. Gwinup, G. (1987). Weight loss without dietary restriction: Efficacy of different forms of aerobic exercise. American Journal of Sports Medicine, 15, 275-279
2. Gappmaier E, Lake W, Nelson AG, Fisher AG. Aerobic exercise in water versus walking on land: effects on indices of fat reduction and weight loss of obese women The Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness 2006, 46:564-569







Since I read 4HB I’ve been very keen on taking up swimming, but I’m having difficulty in finding a pool near my home, and one that has some sort of schedule for begginners, since I’m not that good of a swimmer. I’ll keep on looking.
Just a comment … you don’t necessarily need to swim laps to get your time in the water. I’ve been doing what I call water walking in the deep end of my local pool.
It’s too early for me to tell, but I suspect one benefit of doing it this way is that you’re not actually generating much heat due to exertion!
Beth
EXCELLENT point! yes, I have a friend at Washington State University that has done extensive research on this. What is really great is the buoyancy of the water counters the hearts effort to “lift blood.” At the same time that the increased hydrostatic pressure (water depth) makes it harder to breath.
As you have probably learned first hand, decreased cardiovascular effort combined with increased respiratory effort = FANTASTIC endurance training. Water JOGGING and higher aerobic exercise is also extremely effective and challenging. Slogging through water is always more difficult than the same effort in air. Swimming is probably the lower end of the activity, because you are streamlining through the water. I am about to embark on resistive swimming efforts (tethered) and those should provide a lot more effort.
Ray
Thank you for your reasearch. I have a swimming website and I have been working on a similar article to try to debunk the myth that swimming is not good for weight loss. As a swimmer myself, I know first-hand how ridiculous this adage is and it frustrates me to no end to hear it repeated over and over by fitness “experts” (most, if not all of whom do not swim) citing the same outdated study you refer to in this post. Without access to many scientific journal databases, though, I haven’t been able to find any articles that dissprove this view.
As you mentioned, the disparity in weight loss seems to be mostly attributed to extra calorie consumption by the swimmers, but that’s like saying, running is bad for your health because u might develop skin cancer if u don’t wear sunscreen when u run. Swimmers can just as easily as other athletes restrict their diets while training. The real question is, why would they? if “excess” fat (we’re talking 1-2% more than other athletes) on a swimmer doesn’t affect his or her performance, the way it might to a land athlete?
This is why I don’t trust those studies that compare athlete fat percentages and use that data to make the claim that swimmers are fatter and therefore swimming is not effective at fat loss. U have to factor in genetics, body types that lead to natural swimming ability, the fact that fat floats, the real advantage of being super lean as an athlete and whether that is the goal or just the byproduct of training among different sports cultures. There are just so many factors that are obscuring the real question, which is simply, how does excercising in water compare to excercising on land, in terms of calorie expenditure?
Hopefully you can figure out a way to strip this controversy down to it’s speedo and give me something to report, once and for all. And good luck with your swimming, I take it u discovered TI. If u need any tips, let me know…
“K C”
I agree. What really adds insult to injury is the swimming “pool” industry isn’t interested in funding the research or even seriously discussing health. As I walked around last year’s National show floor, it was amazing just how many were overweight. It of course reflects our national trend, but It seems disportionately high to me when I look at my peers in the scientific community. I was there, so I am not casting stones on the weight, only the hypocrisy of selling something that is supposed to be “healthy.”
The point of correlation without causation on the %fat is also DEAD ON. Yes, 1-2% more fat is there for the swimming group, but hey, what’s the difference between 10-15% body fat in the REAL world of 20, 25, or 30%? yes, there is probably a balance of height, weight and buoyancy that sift, sort and screen the best swimmers. That does not mean that calories cannot be burned swimming.
On the other side of this issue is the swimming industry. If you are a kid, swimming is a relative easy to get into. Lots of clinics, local swim clubs (dying) and teams. Of course it’s not the early 1900s, where swimming was one of the top 10 activities and the likes of Ester Williams ruled the screen, but you can do it. As an adult, there is really no easy way to get started. When you go down to a pool and want to swim it’s not like you can tap someone on the shoulder during a flip turn and say, “hey, I’m not sure what I am doing.” The swimming side places far too much emphasis on just the sport, and there is not enough “group swimming health” programs out there. Swimmers are a breed of their own.
Finally, there is access to water. Look up and down the comments here and you’ll find plenty that don’t have access to water. On top of it, none of us really want to lumber in with our flab in skimpy bathing suits. I felt this same hesitation too and despite my decade with the pool and spa industry, observations of phelps, and understanding of the thermodynamic principles, I chose to walk around and shiver, not join the YMCA. When you do go to public pools in the US, you are often faced with toxic-dump levels of chlorine driven by pool chemical manufacturers. I have BEEN in the standards writing groups and seen it first hand. In many places in Europe it is illegal to have chlorine over .5ppm – here you might find levels as high as 5 ppm! It’s unnecessary and a little “googling” on my name will show you that I have tried to move them towards better circulation (removing hazardous drains).
I’d like to change all of this and put the “SWIM” back in swimming pool ™. I think that my experiments this summer will demonstrate that it can be done and am really still amazed that I could not get the “swimming industry” to support the efforts. That is where this group comes in and the best part is that the work is NOT limited to swimming. IT is just one way to therapeutically cold stress the body.
I will be putting up more info. Please do forward this and see if you can get other swimmers to join this community as well.
Ray
By the way, can I cite your post and your website in an article about swimming and weight loss?
absolutely!!! spread the word.
Ray
I’ve been meaning to join my local swimming pool for while, and this post gave me the added push I needed to go and do it! Thanks Ray! Just got back from a good hour session. Realising now though how terrible my swimming technique is, but I guess that doesn’t really matter unless I plan to compete. The temperature definitely wasn’t particularly cold, but I hope it’s still doing something.
Great Ben!
yes, remember that when scientists study “cold stress” they use 27C/80F water. It pulls heat at 24 x that of air and your body is 98.6F/37C – a large enough difference.
Remember the LESS efficient you are the BETTER the workout. Swimming is NOT a power sport, it is technique. The goal is trying to effortlessly glide through the water, minimizing hydrodynamic drag.
What do we care?
we want to burn calories. Grab a swim snorkle (Finis), some gloves, and fins and just have a ball. Push it with sprints and slower swims.
Poor technique = more effort. As long as your not drowning you are WINNING in the realm of thermal load.
sorry swimmers…not trying to trash your sport! I know perfect practice equals perfect, but for those that are not going to compete, let’s at the very least get them in the water!
Ray
Oooh! Fins and snorkel! I was so focused on improving my technique for a potential future triathlon that I completely forgot about this. I forsee a quick stop at Wal-Mart on the way home…
Thanks for the idea, Ray.
Mike
Go to dick’s or sports authority (i’ll put a link on my amazon store later) and get the finis SWIM snorkel. Goes straight up your forehead – much better. Also the tiny speedo fins are amazing.
Ray
I went all over the place but couldn’t find a Finis swim snorkel. I decided to just go with a regular snorkeling set since I’m an avid snorkeler on vacations.
I spent an hour in the pool Saturday and Sunday both alternating between practicing strokes and just kicking. Each time just after getting home I was dead tired and HUNGRY. Saturday was a free day so I indulged but yesterday controlled intake.
Thanks for the suggestion.
here is the link on my amazon store for the Finis Snorkel
It’s REALLY worth the money!
Ray
Thanks for debunking this myth Ray and thanks for spreading the word in general. Two weeks ago I watched your talk at TEDMED, which led me to your website, which led me to 4HB, which led my wife and I to make some serious changes in our life. We’ve already changed our dietary habits and been to the pool twice in the last week-Mike I’m a terrible swimmer as well. Tomorrow we start collecting data.
In the spirit of debunking other diet and exercise myths, I came across this on YouTube today that was jaw dropping- Sugar: The Bitter Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
Great andrew!!
Please be sure to track progress on the sheets here! I’m going to do my best to figure it out.
Very familiar with Lustig. Also, check out John McDougall – the starch solution. Joel Fuhrman has done a lot on plant based diets as well. I was never the type to be motivated for the animal rights side; I love meat. I did do this for a year after ny weight loss for health. All the expected benefits were confirmed. I’ve been working on a new paradigm of food based on thermodynamic classification.
If you want to make fast progress I recommend it.
Keep us posted!
Ray
So much information! I enjoyed watching McDougall-his starch solution makes sense. I think I’ll start with cutting the dairy and sugar and go from there. I will definitely keep you posted,
Dairy is probably the number one contributor to chronic illness. I love cheese, so this was hard. This week’s New England Journal of Medicine has an amazing story on 120,000 men/women tracked over 20 years 1986-2006. They plot what they eat and correlate to lbs gained average over 4 year intervals.
Reads like a road map for plant based diets. What is a little askew is yogurt is highly associated with weight loss. I still believe the dair side is not good (insulin-like growth factor IGF-1 stimulated). The dairy industry promotes this as an effective way to “promote bones and growth” problem is that when we are done growing, it promotes tissues we don’t want growing – cancer, Tumors, etc…
Will keep experimenting with this and report back.
Ray
I think many of the issues with dairy relate to modern dairy with pasteurization and also genetic issues.
http://thebovine.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/the-devil-in-the-milk-dr-thomas-cowan-on-how-a2-milk-is-the-answer-to-the-mystery-of-why-even-raw-milk-sometimes-does-not-seem-to-be-enough-of-an-improvement-over-store-bought/
http://www.realmilk.com/
I’ve read quite a bit of positive about milk lately and believe good milk is good for health. Bad milk is bad for health. Good milk being raw grass-fed milk from a Guernsey/Jersey cow or other cow with A2 genes. Check out the word press article linked for more details. Or raw milk from a goat fed its natural diet is good as well.
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/raw-milk-fast-2013-are-you-ready/
http://www.realmilk.com/health/milk-cure/
I don’t agree at all with this. We know for certain that milk contains many “natural,” hormonally active proteins like casein and whey that promote insulin and IGF-1. There are many more naturally occurring compounds we don’t know – after all, it is much more than a macronutrient source, whether from a Human, rat, or cow. Lactose intolerance is something that is designed to help wean offspring. Certainly NO offspring is breast feeding during the third trimester of pregnancy when hormones are raging and yet, cows are routinely milked during this period.
Jonathan,
There is a huge chasm between starvation and nutritionism. We don’t have to worry about starvation now, but in the time when milk consumption originally became popular, starving and particularly in small children, was a big risk. Milk thwarted that problem. Today, with ubiquitous cheap calorie, milk is clearly in the same boat with sugar, oil and other calorie dense “dessert” foods – it should be only consumed when rare and appropriate. There is no need, not calcium, vitamin D (fortified from the sebaceous oil from lamb), or any other reason to drink milk or eat cheese. It’s been demonstrated – natural or not – to be associated with various issues. I suspect there is absolutely no way it could be approved through the same process as say, Splenda, and people trash that all the time (I’m not that concerned).
Natural does not equal healthy no more than hemlock makes good tea and poison ivy good skin ointment.
I eat ice cream and yogurt (very rarely) and even occasionally have cheese. All are extremely rare events. It’s not that I don’t LOVE the taste, but it’s simply not worth the downside. My teenaged daughters learned early on that they can avoid the acne that plagues their high school friends. Its sad to see some of them scarred with inflammation and absolutely ruining their microbiome with antibiotics in an attempt to squelch the problem.
My advice to anyone following my site it to steer clear of dairy and the multimillion dollar promotion thereof. Its a travesty and there are PLENTY of peer-reviewed studies to counter any health claims beyond avoiding starvation.
My thoughts…thanks for the input.
Ray
Ok so I have a goal of losing 15 lbs in 4 1/2 weeks by my birthday. I am going to do juice fasting along with cold baths, swimming, and weight training.
Do you think I can do it, also do you have any recomendations for me?
Yes, i think its possible, but I’d never recommend juice fasting. Essentially it’s starvation with the only energy being high glycemic sugar loads. If you want to be extreme in caloric restriction, do so with high nutrient, high fiber plant based diet. Check out Eat for Health, Joel Fuhrman or 21 day kick Start, Neal Barnard. So many options to restrict calories and maintain high micro nutrients.
Starving loses water, fat and muscle. For every pound of muscle you lose, there’s 4 you’ll gain back (water and fat the balance).
It’s great to set goals and yours are achievable, but do it in a healthy way. That’s going to take 100% committment over this time. It must be your single focus.
Ray
Thanks so much for your feedback. I just bought Joel Fuhrman’s book yesterday and am on day one of the 6 week Eat to live plan.
I am commited to this and I have my hubby rooting for me. Can’t wait to see how my body changes.
Thanks~
Hannah
Fantastic Hannah!
I think his second book (2 volume set) Eat for Health is a bit easier to follow. You might want to pick that up. It has far more recipes and is more organized with meal plans. Honestly, the transition was extremely difficult and I did it to examine health, not lose weight.
Keep us posted!!!
Ray
This certainly explains a lot. When I was younger (10-25), my parents had a large in ground pool and during the sunmmer, we lived in it, hours a day. We were always starving and always comenting how weird it was about how hungry swimming, or just being in the pool made you. Time to visit the pool again….
Jeff
I grew up near the chesapeake bay and had the exact same experience. Also, I was an avid scuba diver in college and frequently visited quarries (thermoclines in the 50/60F) and Florida fresh water springs/cave dives – year round 72F/22C.
My main weight gain started right after giving up diving, with exception of safety diving in the NASA NBS to train astronauts for EVA repair missions (space walks). Interestingly, these simulations lasted hours and since astronauts were in space suits, they kept the water in the lower 90s F for safety divers – to avoid hypothermia.
There’s no doubt this can have a positive impact, but as you have mentioned, you must manage the hunger and satiate without binging. Your peak hunger will be 2 hours after exercise so super hydrate (sipping ice cold water) and consider a balanced protein shake (not too much sugar). I have some other food protocols that are being tested right now that I’ll report back on in the coming months.
Keep us posted.
Ray
Hello Ray,
I have a few thoughts that you should be up your alley.
This last winter & spring I tested the cold waters:
I found that $6.00 of Ice will lower full bath water temp by @ 14*F.
I found that 45*F bath water is difficult & expensive.
I found that 59*F bath water is cheap & only the first 20 seconds was difficult, the next 30 minutes was easy while listening to music, reading &/or playing Sudoku. I found exercising after was better than letting my body go into shiver mode.
I found that I don’t like cool showers at all.
So I am curious if you have any thoughts or analysis on the above.
Next are my pool observations.
I found that 70*F water is ok; but, my favorite temp is 75*F pool water.
The only pool that I have access to now is kept a 82*F. If I am swimming hard, 82*F seems like it barely keeps me from overheating.
I generally spend 2 hours in the pool. How much more would I benefit from the 75*F pool as opposed to the 82*F pool. (either per hour or for the whole two hours)
I would guess I sweat a lot more in the 82*F pool.
If the pool was warmer than 82*F, what temp would the water become counter productive. I’m sure 85* water would feel terrible & 75*F room air has got to be better than 90*F pool water.
Thank you for your help,
Austin
Austin
On the first point – baths, I don’t know as Tim worked on this. I have some ideas, but nothing concrete. I’m working with Wim Hof on cold showers now. There actually is a technique and the result will be increased circulation, but most important a way to dip down into the autonomic immune system and control it. It’s facinating and has been documented repeatedly at hospitals and universities. No one is sure how far he can go and we’re working on how it can be taught.
For swimming, I found 76F/24C perfect so we agree there. 82F is still perfectly fine. Yes, you might tend to sweat on upper end of effort. If outside, swim early morning or night. Consider a few “evaporation intervals” sitting on the deck or standing a few minutes at regular periods to cool down. You’ll know this works when you slide back into the water you feel that cool sensation again.
Ray
Ray, I know you’ve said at 80F water is 24x more conductive (to heat) than air but do you have any estimates for calorie usage in 80F water while at rest? This week I’ve been trying to spend a half hour in the tub in cool water and I’m trying to figure out exactly how much good I’m doing.
Thnks.
Hey mike
It’s always 24x times more thermally conductive than air – not just at 80F. Good rule of thumb of energy loss is about 2.4-2.7x your resting metabolism rate. It can change with activity and 80F/27C is the lower edge of thermal neutral for water.
As you continue down, you approach max loss at about 5-6x RMR. So an average person with no activity can consume 240-600 cal/hour of thermal energy with exposure. The problem comes in when we add back activity. It’s not just a simple addition. Also, there are long term fat loss advantages because of increased circulatory system and better mobilization of free fatty acids.
More on last two coming in a new ebook…
Ray
Hi Ray
Thanks for all the information I find it very approachable and useful. I have a few questions.
My goal is weight loss/ calorie use and I’ve been walking in my gym’s pool. Before I enter the pool I sit in a dry heat sauna that is usually around 160f / 71c for between 10 and 20 min. I do this because I somewhat enjoy it and because I think that maybe this will benefit my loss of heat in the pool. ( Like how initially warm water freezes faster than colder water)
My questions are: Is this a sound theory or is this counterproductive?
Also if my idea is sound, would I be better off using a hot tub instead?
Again thank you for all of your help. I look forward to reading your book.
Pat
Thanks Pat
When I was learning to swim in march, my instructor had me soak for 2-3 minutes in the spa (102F/39C) before entering the pool (76F/24C). Air temperature was around 55F/13C. I found that it was enjoyable and tha first plunge was exhileratuong. He typically has students wear a wet suit as there is a lot of instruction and sitting still – we didnt do that and I swam drills for 3 hours. The water and air were perfect.
I suspect that there is a benefit to “preheat,” but it’s not to cool faster.
FYI hot water does not freeze faster than cold. [Geek alert skip if you like]. I first read about this as a kid in Amateur Scientist (1) and did a school project. Short story is that in very controlled conditions water can supercool (far more easy and fun with a beer – search YouTube). The cold water supercools (i.e cooling below freezing point) to a lower temp than the hot water. Then, someting starts the first ice crystal – a jagged edge on the container, a vibration, etc…) and the whole thing goes at once.
It’s fun, well to me it beats golf, but I’m a geek about such things.
What is important is that your body senses differences in temperature. This can help confuse the senses a bit and make the transition less shocking. Think about how you describe being “frozen” by dry ice or liquid nitrogen at doctors office. The sensation is it burns. What’s interesting is that once you experience cold, the sensation can quickly turn into a “hot” sensation. Wim has described this to me and I’ve seen reports of people found in wilderness after hypothermia having stripped protective clothing off.
Try it both ways. Do with sauna for two weeks and without for two weeks. Ideally alternating weeks. It’s going to do two things: give you incredible focus on your diet and regime for those 4 weeks – hey, it’s a self experiment and you have skin (and flab) in the game. Second you become your own control. If there is no difference, do what feels the best and enjoy it.
Too often people restrict things that aren’t that cut and dry. If there is only marginal improvement, but life sucks, why bother? I think using the measurement progress sheet will tell you more than the scale. Probably need a widget to link to that for new users.
Great stuff!! Keep us posted.
Ray.
(1) J. Walker, “The Amateur Scientist”, Scientific American, 237, #3, pgs 246—7 (Sept. 1971)
I would assume the advantage from heat comes from expanding peripheral blood vessels. Blood traveling in those vessels is cooled to a greater degree than just jumping straight in, thus forcing the body to work harder to to keep warm AND re-constrict those same blood vessels.
That’s my theory, anyway. It makes sense inmybown head :).
I am a bachelor and a general lamester so I have more freedom than most. This has allowed me to set up a small kiddie pool in my living room. I soaked for about 2 hours today while I watched TV. I did 25 reps of side leg raises and push ups during commercials. I filled it with regular tap water and did not feel cold at all. Afterwards, I took a shower with pure cold water for 10 minutes and it actually warmed me up.
Tomorrow, I am going to upgrade to one with a filter and buy a thermometer. I will try throwing a few trays of ice in and getting in after they melt. (Not ready for ice on skin yet).
Not specifically related to swimming but relates to thermal expenditure.
More Extra Virgin Olive Oil, more circulating UCP-1 proteins.
http://www.ergo-log.com/oliveadrenalin.html
Erin,
Interesting. I’m not a big fan of high fat, but I took a look at the referenced paper and it looks interesting. I’m going to look at this more closely. It relates well with some other things I’ve been working on…
Thanks!!
Ray
Did you discover anything new on this, Ray?
HI Ray,
I first read about your experiments in 4HB…and you and Tim have inspired me to start my own self experiment in increasing my power to weight ratio… It started with HIT training which got me from 100lb bench press on a machine to 100 lb dumbells in less than 4 months. You’ve convinced me to start swimming again – 30 min 2x per day in an unheated outdoor 62ºf-65ºf pool…and I am trying the cold showers and Ice baths….
Searching for more information on the thermodynamics of cold exposure I ran across this post on Snopes.com http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=20027 which details the thermodynamics of heating a pint of water from freezing to body temperature, via one’s stomach, and shows the math to prove that it only consumes about 20 Kcal of heat energy.
I decided to apply the same logic and formula to the Ice Bath i did on Sunday that Started out at 48ºF and finished at 58ºF a half hour later… I realize this formula could be completely inaccurate or incomplete.
Givens:
Bath tub = 43.8 ga http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_capacity_of_a_bathtub
Conversion 43.8 =165.8L http://calculator-converter.com/gal_to_l_convert_gallon_to_liter_conversion_calculator_gal_litre.php
Specific Heat of water = 4 J/K (Joules per degree Kelvin)
Temperature Initial= Ti = 48ºF = 8.88ºC
Temperature Final= Tf= 58ºF=14.44ºC
Temperature Differential = | Tf-Ti | = 5.58º (here since its an absolute value Celsius plugs into Kelvins)
Mass of the tub of water
Since 1L = 1Kg
165.8L= 165.8Kg
Convert to grams
1Kg=1000gm
165,800gm of water
Mass of H2O x Temperature Change in Kelvins x Specific heat of Water= Joules of energy to heat water
Conversion for Joules to Calories = 1/4.184
Conversion for Calories to Kilocalories (Food calories)= 1/1000
The Math:
165,800gm x 5.58K x 4J/gm*K= 3,687,392 J
3,687,392 J / 4.184 C/J= 881,307.839 Cal
881,307.839/1000C/Kcal= 881.3 KCal of heat energy
If the math or more importantly the assumptions are correct then;
sitting in a tub of ice water long enough to raise it from 48 deg F to 58 deg F
required about 881 Kcal of heat energy
Can that be correct?
There will no doubt be some warming from the ambient air at 65ºF but I imagine that would have a smaller influence both since the available surface area is minimal and air is significantly less efficient at moving heat plus there is no air flow.
I just started a blog to start posting my findings on exercise, diet, metabolism and cold exposure here: http://powert2weight.blogspot.com/
Thanks and keep it up,
Rich
Alright, i need some help. The water in my pool is finally getting cool enough t be able to swim in it and lower my body temp a few degrees. The problem is i don’t know how long i should go for. Is 10, 20, 30 minutes long enough? Every day, every other day, twice a week? And i do have a lot of weight to lose, still 35 lbs, but i don’t know what I’m doing or how to do it. I’ve never really been one to exercise regularly, while I am trying to get there. I’ve been getting back on the slow-carb diet, which gave me great results at first, but i’ve since plateaued. Can someone please help me figure out a plan that I can stick to?
Hi,
What do you make of this article?
I believe there seems to be a contradiction between what your good self, Tim Ferriss and this memo say about cold water exposure to your body.
I am thinking about the 12,000 calories of Michael Phelps.
Thanks,
Wayne
Don’t see a link…
Ray
Sorry please see below!
http://perfectfitnutrition.getprograde.com/swimming-and-weight-loss.html?advert_id=FRPL
Got it!
Yes, Gwinup is probably the most quoted (and misquoted) study out there. They gave no advice on eating (eat what you want) and swimmers gained. Jang was a bit better. This author misses the real point and it’s hidden in the few lines about hunger. What all programs agree is that hunger spikes after swimming (about two hours). Other studies show and increase in free fatty acids (the fuel of mitochondria).
My belief is that this is due to the response to the thermal load. There are calories continually expended after the swim as the body shifts back into equilibrium after the mild cold stress. The KEY is to eat a high fiber, nutrient rich, calorically poor meal two hours post swim. This issue is also seen after ice baths, but I’ve not spent much time on it.
Mild cold stress – even while swimming – has an impact on circulation and the cardiovascular system in general. In discussions with wim hof, there is a learned response (or relearned) that helps the body rapidly switch over to free fatty acid metabolism as is seen in trained distance runners.
Thanks for pointing this out. I’ll be sure to catch this in wrap up.
Ray
I believe in your integrity and the work you are doing here its a shame that others post only a percentage of the whole story.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question and i look forward to your next posting.
No worries! Let’s create the group that turns it around – putting the swim back into swimming pool. It’s only a piece if the puzzle, but the thermal load combined with management of calorie and post workout satiety could be demonstrated wide-spread by members here.
That’s worth digging in for and people like you make me want to push it even further.
We’ll help this guy with a new interpretation in time – everybody wins.
Ray
Ray
Any thoughts on “Rich Overcash”, maths calculation???
Yes, and this is where I started three years ago. I though, wow, if I just sit in cool/cold water I am doing well.
So I modeled it in wolfram’s mathematica and was able to actually find real data. It turns out there is about a 2.4-2.5x multiplier on REE, when just sitting in 27C water (we predicted 240 watts and they measured 260-70W).
THat was when it was all about the simple heat transfer. The body is far more clever. When I met David Sinclair (Harvard Biologist) at TEDMED and was able to dig in a little deeper to CR and Mild Cold Stress, it turned out there was a multiplier that was coming into the mix. Even a year ago, I would have said Tim’s BAT perspective was not quite what I saw, but now we have some recent work that suggest perhaps that DOES create more BAT over time.
There is a good connection now for INCREASING BAT. That’s exciting and I love the possibility. So, the exposure is critical – long term mild cold stress in air is really good for dumping calories. Short term higher exposure may stimulate these hormonal pathways – we just don’t know yet.
I think being level-headed about it and developing a healthy attitude towards cooler temperatures (you DON’T need…NEVER need…a space heater under a desk in a heated office building) unless you have a true thyroid problem or raynaud’s disease.
IF you want a simple mnemonic for the calculations above, the energy in one pound of fat can melt 66 lbs of ice and raise it to body temperature. We need the metabolic pathways..
Ray
I’m an ex swimmer getting back in shape. Reading the 4 Hour Body, wanted to learn more about your BAT fat experiments. Some fun guys to watch are the guys of Open Water Chicago. They swim in Lake Michigan year round, ice bergs and all. They would probably be great test subjects in someone’s experiment. Everyone is invited to swim with them each weekend, so if you are ever in Chicago and want to swim in ice water, I’m sure they’d love for you to join them. They have a website where they post videos and pictures http://openwaterchicago.com and Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/openwaterchicago I look forward to reading your site.
what about walking an hour in cold air around 0-4°C , wearing only shorts, shoes, shirt an a light jacket? I will definitely try talking cold showers (already scared of it) and increase swimming (just started getting my diving license a month ago) but sadly, I have no bathtub in my flat, so no cold baths for me. other ideas? maybe riding my bike for 15 minutes to/ from work just wearing the clothes named above? I eat bulletproof/ high fat low carb paleo but do I still have to worry about getting sick because of the cold? If I jogg in cold enviroment, what to protect (besides hands/ feet) from cold? and, I suffer from mild raynaud syndrom (especially feet, sometimes fingers too), will this get better too? what to do about cellulite on my thights? thanks! 🙂
hi Ray. thank you for your posts and self experimentation and critical thinking. i was reading this post as one idea came to my mind. while fasting one experiments cold, even shivering cold sometimes. one does not seem to get warm. this is interpreted as lowering of metabolism due to lack of calorie intake and that this leads to slower metabolism. i was wondering if fasting would contribute to cold adaptation. we see an increase in fat burning when fasting. could this cold experiencing be contributing to that fat burning, for the body using own fat not only for activity but also for generating heat, and that need for heat need increased during fasting? thinking about intermittent fasting as longevity booster being factors the calorie reduction ans the cold experiencing in the fasting period. any thoughts?
Hi Ray,
first: Thanks for your effort in putting this information out there. I have a question:
I am using a combination of swimming and caloric restriction and was able to lose almost 10 pounds in the last 10 days.
My Question is: Is there an equation to calculate the loss in “calories” in water? Something like: X hours in Y temperature water equals approximately Z in lost calories?
I know there are many other factors (adaptation to cold, circulation etc…), but considering the termal load of water, one should be able to approximately calculate the calories if we know the temperature of the water and ones surface area.
Thanks,
Jan