Last week, one of our site members posted a comment to Ch-Ch-Changes about the benefits of heat and cold in losing weight. I think that 36 months ago I would have completely agreed with his comments; now I am not so sure. With his permission, I turned this dialog into a post, because I think there is widespread confusion on our thermoregulatory system and its effect on metabolic rate.
We seem to have an evolutionary hatred of cold. Those that have followed me in the last couple of months KNOW how adamant I am about this approach constituting a layered approach. In other words, I think that once someone has a good handle on solid nutrition and exercise program (that is another debatable topic), then thermal loading is a way to get a boost in the caloric deficit. but one thing is just an absolute truth:
THERE MUST BE AN OVERALL CALORIC DEFICIT TO LOSE WEIGHT.
Ok, I don’t use all caps frequently, but talk loudly often (bad habit). So we should all agree that beyond diet-goop, pills, glycemic indices, and a 1960s vibrating belt, we have to create a deficit in calories – energy – to lose body fat. Ahhh, there’s the rub. We call it losing weight and really we need to lose energy or body fat. Adding muscle increases weight, but it’s rarely seen as a problem. Conversely, sweating dehydrates and results in weight loss and that is not necessarily a gain.
Close is close enough
You see, we use weight as our primary index of obesity. Tim posted a pretty exhaustive lambast of BMI and this NPR piece is also very good; don’t get sidetracked now – read on. Additionally, tracking body fat accurately is a tedious process and that is why I settled in on being precise, not accurate. Precision is aiming at the center of the target and hitting up and to the left EVERY time. Accuracy is aiming at the center and hitting the center EVERY time.
Precise is good enough, because when you subtract last weeks results from this weeks, you get a very accurate trend. Measuring using a tape and plotting total inches combined body fat measured with a scale/fat caliper can be great ways to monitor these trends. Use our thermogenex log sheet to keep the data consistent.
So what does accuracy, precision, and vibrating belts have to do with hot vs cold thermoregulation?
Measuring the Loss
Maybe nothing, but when we are trying to assess body fat loss, or energy deficits, the scale is not always the best indicator of what is going on inside. Water weight is important and it varies GREATLY, especially in hot environments. It also is significantly impacted by diet changes and, incidentally, cold exposure.
What is interesting is that so many diet and exercise blogs, reports and books list an ominous list of scientific references at the bottom of their article. What most scientists can tell on glance is whether or not they actually read the paper. Why? It’s because most often the total reference to the work in diet-fitness-journalist writing is simply what was contained in the abstract, which is freely published on pubmed and other internet sources.
An abstract is sort of a scientific headline: Now Read This: Lab Rats and Monkeys Lose Weight by Not Eating Tunafish on Thursdays. Well, you get the idea. It catches geek (and skeptical) scientists minds, like me who’s first thought is how do rats and monkeys know what day it is while everyone else is wondering about the tunafish. It’s silly, but you get the idea.
Ok, you are with me, I hope, on caloric deficit = weight loss, need a precise (not accurate) way to track change, and lots of “scientific work” is misrepresented or over stated.
Let’s get back to one of the comments from the post and do a little noodling. Here is the quote from Mike
“2 anecdotal experiences come to mind:
1. The sun is an incredible fat burner. I know my fat loss goes to new levels when I spend 15 minutes in the sun. Look at surfers — look at old time bodybuilders, fitness models, etc…. On a side note: We know that vitamin D affects testosterone plus improves leptin sensitivity. So it could be working because of that.
2. Infra-red saunas — the estimates are 500 calories burned doing NOTHING for 30 minutes. Also amazing for detox (sweating is one of the best ways to get toxins out). And my natural bodybuilding champion friend used infra-reds to accelerate his fat-loss and achieve new levels of leanness (sub 6%).”
Ok, first the reason why I like what Matt posted: 2 anecdotal experiences come to mind. This tells me he’s thought about it and is open to a plausible alternate explanation. He’s seen correlation and doesn’t quite know the full extent of cause and effect.
Watch out, goat boat ahead
Interestingly, I use surfers all the time as an example for thermal loading exposure. I don’t just consider the incident radiation of being in the sun and resulting heating of their body like a lizard – I see the total thermal load. Unless you are surfing in 98.6/37F water, heat is leaving your body at 24x times the rate in water vs air. Every time they hit the water, they are dumping heat. In Half Moon Bay, home of the Mavericks, it’s 60F/15C air and 50F/10C year round. Perfect place to thermal load.
Surfers know squid lids, wash thru, claw hand, and surfer’s ear. They also have an EXTREME amount of thermal load and consequently “don the apron” with some of the fattiest, calorie-dense food known and magically stay rail-thin.
In addition to the thermal load of the water, there is another BIG calorie burner no one is thinking about: evaporative loss. It’s always windy and sun or not, water is evaporating off of your body and a huge rate. Think about the fact that the body’s entire cooling system is based primarily on evaporation of water from the skin (sweat). The problem is that the only calories burned happen when the sweat evaporates – dripping or towel drying don’t count.
I would suggest that some of the “suns” effects are actually the effects of rapid evaporative loss combined with constant water cooling and rewetting. Anyone that has gone swimming in the desert knows that you can get EXTREMELY cold when you get out of the pool, despite an air temperature of 110F/43F. The water flashing off your skin in dry conditions definitely removes heat and cools the skin.
So does sweat = cooling and energy deficits?
Not always. When the water comes from outside the body, it adds extra cooling the body didn’t order and this equates to caloric loss deficits. When it is induced by subjecting the body to a hot environment, causing it to activate its built-in perspiration response to dump a backlog of metabolic heat, it’s just thermal regulation. Unless the backlog of heat was caused by running, jumping, shivering, or some other activity, that evaporation is just a thermoregulatory balance.
Likewise, a quick search of the literature on infrared saunas, brought up the work of Biro et al (1). I won’t dig too deeply into this now, because I have questions into the main author, but what what strikes me is that it starts by saying that these saunas increase appetite in normal patients and then later in a group of ten obese, shuts appetite with no change in Plasma ghrelin and serum leptin concentrations.
It goes on to offer additional evidence of a 260lb/117.9kg patient that lost 38.5lb/17.5kg in 10 weeks on a 1600 cal/day diet. I don’t have height, age or sex of this patient, so we can only take a guess at how much caloric restriction, but if he ate nothing I doubt he’d reach the 3.8lbs/1.7kg a week reported. Something else is happening, we just don’t have enough information to know what.
Could skin stimulation fake the body into thinking it is warm and cause it to sweat and actually cool? Not sure and there is not enough information to even guess. I do know that cooling through evaporative loss has been very accurately measured 20-120Kcal/m^2/hr and so at 15 minute exposures, this is not likely the explanation.
I see LOTs of claims on this all over the internet and I’ve not seen much support. What I know has been researched exhaustively is the energy consumed being cold. We know those numbers and my results, along with others that tried, are not outside the explanation of those studies.
I’ll stick with my guns on Point 1 above (surfers) and on point 2 say that I am dubious, but open to other information. I’d like to understand a possible metabolic pathway for increased energy deficit and evaporation or suppression of hunger (in the paper) is not good enough, because complete starvation barely yields this level and we know the caloric intake.
In the end, there is hopefully a little more light to shine on the effects of cold/cool. We know the metabolic pathways of shivering and non-shivering thermogenesis and these can produce from 15-600% boosts in RMR. I think once people get over the aversion to cold, it’s really no sweat.
(1) Biro et al “Clinical implications of thermal therapy in lifestyle-related diseases” (Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2003;228(10):1245-1249)







OMGosh…what an awesome piece! Thanks Ray. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am experimenting myself with the SCD, cooling, and hcg. Day 7, down 6.4 pounds, down about 3 inches overall and energy is amazing. For cooling, I’m using ice packs, front upper chest and upper back/neck area 1 hr night. Cool showers, no heat in the office 80% of the time..temp est 62 ish indoors (need to get some thermometers)…thermostat at home set to 62 and inching it lower. Less clothing, walking on cold bare tiles. I’m getting used to it. I will report this tidbit, two nights ago, I had the opportunity to stand in 55 degree weather from 9-11pm changing the locks on my front door lol. Interestingly enough…I was cold, feet frozen, chilled to the bone by the time I was done (I was in running pans, t-shirt and very light jacket, flipflops). I got into bed shortly after and I was cold cold cold…near shivering. This lastest for hours before I gave up trying to get my feet warm on their own and pulled on socks which warmd me up enough to finally get to sleep at 2am. Weighed in the morning and I was down 2.4 pounds from the day before. Coincidence? I dunno…but makes me curious!!!!…..and excited enough to consider doing an evening walk in just a t-shirt to see what happens next! 🙂 thank youuuuu!!!!
edit: t-shirt AND pants. 😉
Hey Kimmie,
Are you doing 500 cal HCG diet?
I’m beginning my experiment w/ all this too…
yes I am. Its going well. I’ve done it before…3 years ago and lost 30 lbs. I kept it off til this year….not watching what I was putting in my mouth and an enormous amount of stress….all the weight came back, but not more…thankfully. I’m trying to lose 50 pounds this time with a combo of diets, intending to end up on SCD w/ cooling. Hope that helps…K
Cool – haha get it!? I’m starting the HCG diet (i’ve also done it previously) and trying to combine the techniques in Ferriss’ book as well. Want to connect and keep in touch? I find it’s helpful to maintain communication w/ someone who’s in a similar boat 🙂
Feel free to email me: Kelli.Beltran@gmail.com
Hi Kellie..sure that would be great. I’m kdbritton1200@gmail.com
hey I’m doing the hcg diet too. Lost 30kg a few years back and just doing a 3 week round to take off a few kilos I’ve out on. Following some Tim Ferris and the thermo as well. How did you go?
Amanda
I have tried to really look objectively at each method of weight loss – I want to find a group or combination of the best. Look on the side of your drops. Does it say “homeopathic remedy” anywhere?
Ray
Next time keep your feet, ears and hands warm. No additional benefit to being uncomfortable. Won’t account for that much loss, but I am sure you had some impact.
I am laughing, because my house often is 55-60 and I just sort of hang out in shorts and t-shirt. No wind other than the ceiling fan. It’s all what we are used too…
Ray
Ray,
Loving the site. Been doing some combination of 4HB and thermo stuff for the past 9 months and seen quality results.
I started a 60 day exercise program that’s just Insane 😉 and I’d like to try and increase results with cold exposure. That said, I travel for work every week. Ice baths and tubs that fit my 6’5″ frame are hard to come by in hotels. I’ve tried the cold shower and cold water methods and really can’t pin down the results.
Looking at this article raises two questions from my experience:
1) is there any benefit to hitting a cold shower RIGHT AFTER an intense workout?
2) is there any benefit to rapid shifts in water temp exposure (e.g., hopping from the hot tub to the pool at my hotel for a fifteen minute period)?
Any insight is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Jason
HCG. Assuming you are also following the recommended diet, this alone would account for the weight loss, with or without cooling.
Ok so from my understanding of Thermal Loading – you cool to get your body to heat up. In that heating up process it’s working hard – hard enough to burn calories at a different rate than say when you exercise at 70 degrees.
On the Sauna example, is it possible that the opposite is happening. That when you are subjected to the opposite extreme – heat – that your body then works really hard to keep your body temperature down? Would this not cause the same type of reaction within your body – just the opposite end of the spectrum?
The reason I ask is that I live in Texas and we’re already moving towards our “Hot as Hell” period. I had four weeks of cold that I walked in every morning and was losing around 5lbs per week in January and some of February. In the past few weeks, it’s heated up and instead of working out in the lower 20’s, I’m now working out in the 60’s and 70’s and my weight loss has slowed down dramatically to 1-2 lbs per week.
I’ve added in cold showers and ice packs this week, but wonder if working out in the 100’s in 90% humidity will I burn the calories at the same rate as being cold? I’m talking July and August here, but I’m just wondering. I understand that I would sweat more, but if I kept properly hydrated, would the caloric burn be the same or is it lower since it’s actually closer to the natural temperature of our body would the caloric burn actually be the same as 70 degrees? Do we need to get to say a 120 degrees environment to see the same kind of caloric burn?
Also another question regarding ice packs. Does a longer exposure of say 1hr instead of 30 minutes help? If you change out the ice pack and continue or try different parts of the day other than evening, will it help any?
Thanks for all of the advice Ray!!! I’ve lost 20lbs and have plans for another 40! This idea has been a literal life-changer. If you’re ever in the Houston area, I’d like to buy you a beer (or a coffee) 🙂
I was thinking the same thing. When I taught introductory university biology labs, we would do a study on the thermal neutral zone in mammals. Basically, measuring the metaboic activity via oxygen consumption in mice held at various environmental temperatures. The result was a u-shaped curve on the metabolic rate, with lower temperatures increasing the metabolic rate to maintain body temperature, a range of moderate temperatures that generated a flat neutral rate in the middle, and then an increase in metabolic rate as the temperatures began to rise above this neutral zone as the animals attempted to reduce their core temperature.
The higher temperature slope was lower than that of the cold temperature slopes, and I would assume that if pushed far enough would result in heat stress and death before reaching the metabolic level of the cold curve, but definitely may be something to look into as I’m sure there’s quite a bit of research already done in this field.
You should post the graph. It would be interesting to see
Very interesting. I would be curious to see that also. I wonder why cold is more effective than heat also?
This site has a good explanation of what is going on with thermal neutral zones and the relationship between skin and core temperature (skin temperature seems to be the driver or thermostat for your control mechanisms) http://faculty.washington.edu/brengelm/neut_zone/pg1.html
here is a link that hopefully works showing a theoretical curve:
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://media.wiley.com/CurrentProtocols/NS/ns0923d/ns0923d-fig-0002-1-full.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.currentprotocols.com/protocol/ns0923d&usg=__Fhgao7-WpS_WBlSO2k_f1_RZ0ZE=&h=330&w=467&sz=23&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=sMeeYyXIZR1vcM:&tbnh=152&tbnw=215&ei=4ElnTeSMIYqksQOW_7GmBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dthermal%2Bneutral%2Bzone%2Bin%2Bmice%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D620%26tbs%3Disch:1%26prmd%3Divnsb0%2C100&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=146&vpy=326&dur=3263&hovh=189&hovw=267&tx=118&ty=113&oei=yUhnTb_uBZK-sAOVjfWoBA&page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:0&biw=1280&bih=620
Basically, you are more limited above the high critical threshold, in humans with vasodilation to bring more blood to the surface for cooling, and sweating, versus below the lower critical threshold where you have vasoconstriction, shivering, pilomotor responses, and increased activity to generate metabolic heat to keep from getting hypothermic. Heat stress on the other hand becomes quite serious if you cannot reduce the core temperature.
It becomes even more complex as there are numerous behavioural adaptations for each side of the neutral zone, such as moving to refuges, altering body shape to increase/decrease surface area, etc.
This is what I was thinking of when I posted the comments on the other post.
I’m thinking we can use BOTH acute overheating and acute cold periods to force the body to expend more heat and energy.
This makes way more sense to me than “the overheating will cancel the benefits of the thermal loading.” (Unless you were going in a sauna while having the air conditioner on or something).
My goal was just to challenge one of Ray’s comments that I felt was off and I was hoping that he would prove he was right or wrong.
This is a nice community that ARay is building and it’s great to be part of it.
Blessings,
Matheo
Matt/Tyler
See my reply to chris. Humans don’t dump heat the same as rodents. They are used as examples in cooling, because shivering and BAT work the somewhat same way as in humans.
The problem you have is that humans, evolving in tropics, are set up to dump heat. Putting it in from an outside sources slows down that process. You can easily take a temperature 50F below body temp (48F), but see how long you last at 148F.
If you can see this one point, you’ll understand how thermal loading works. If not, the old paradigm of sweating it off is all you have left.
Ray
First, congratulations on 20! 40 should be “no sweat,” but I’m afraid not in Houston! I was in visiting my friend, scott parazynski last weekend. Stayed over by Rice village and ate entirely TOO much food.
Ok, mice don’t sweat, they pant. One of the issues with panting animals is that respiration goes up and so does the work load on the body. This (as you may have studied) can have a dramatic self-feeding effect. As they work harder to cool, they increase internal heat production. This is why these animals burrow and are nocturnal. Your observations are dead-on, just don’t completely apply. We do have small increases and as the paper I quoted reports, maybe there are others not well documented. I’ll hold out until I see a plausible metabolic mechanism
Humans (and horses) sweat and consequently that gives them a HUGE advantage to cooling as long as we remain well hydrated.
ANY workload you add will burn calories by virtue of increased waste heat production. In the case of cold/cool exposure, the workload is just automatic and you don’t have to think about it – so long as you can endure it. As well, any BAT you may have is also a DIRECT heat producer as instead of 80% waste heat like other metabolic processes, you get 100% instead of ATP production.
In Texas, and other tropical regions, take note of Tyler’s comment below. That is the most PLEASANT of the thermal loading options in my opinion.
Ray
P.S although it might FEEL like it, those 100% humidity days don’t count as swimming >grin<
LOL – yeah it sometimes DOES feel like swimming on the high humidity days. 🙂
So last night I took my first cold bath. Not an ice-bath as I’ll have to work towards that, but I dropped 1lb from yesterday morning till this morning. The only thing different I did was actually less work. I’ve been walking 3 miles per morning and riding my bike to work (5 miles).
However yesterday, it rained and I had after-work commitments so I decided not to ride. So after this post, I decided to take the plunge (pun intended) and with my wife looking at me like I’m crazy, I did it just like it said in the 4HB and worked my way into it. It was cold – really cold initially, but after about a minute, it was fine. I ended up staying in for about 20mins. I meant to try to monitor the temperature of the water, but completely forgot, but I’m sure the water was between 65 – 70 degrees.
When I got out, I felt fine and not too chilled. I did notice that it took another three or so hours for my skin not to be clammy.
Anyways I was extremely pleased that I had dropped a full pound in the morning. I’ve decided that in the next two weeks, I’m going to do the cold baths each night and see if I can break past the 1-2 lb per week plateau. I’ll report in on my findings. 🙂
Thanks!
On your final note that “once people get over the aversion to cold, it’s really no sweat”, I have been taking 30 minute ice baths 3xweek for the past 5 weeks. Within the first week, I stopped shivering when submerged up to my waist in 12 degree C water. Now at week 5, I drop the water to 8 degrees C and can submerge all but head and arms and still not shiver until arms get submerged. Skin still gets red all over but no shivering.
Have you observed this adaptation?
Does this affect your results?
I wish I could provide data, but my body-fat scale was ruined after I once flooded the bathroom, forgetting to turn off the water, and the new scale reads VERY different from old one. So it’ll be couple of weeks before I can report a trend.
have you noticed any change in weight or how your clothes fit over the 5 weeks since you’ve been doing this?
Chris, After 20 minute ice bath my skin turns red too. Especially around the lower leg feet area. I joined a health club that has a “cold dip.” Small enclosed pool/spa type structure about 5ft x 5ft with very cold water in it. The water is 52 degrees and the dip is 4 feet dip….I first enter up to my waist for a few minutes then submerge to my lower chest area. Whoa! After 10 minutes I sink down up my chin keeping my arms and shoulders out. Thats when the real shivering usually starts….After 3 weeks I am still unable to plunge my hands and arms in the dip for more than a minute. Some days my feet and shins feel like a million tiny needles are being stuck in them from the cold…its almost unbearable but I am seeing results. Especially in how my clothes fit. I am also walking hills 5 x a week for exercise
I find the surfing reference to be very interesting. Last year I spent just under 6 months in Central America with my wife. I was surfing just about every day, sometimes multiple times a day, and even though the water was warm (28 to 30 Celsius), I managed to lose 25 pounds over that period. My wife, who doesn’t surf, came back from the trip perhaps 5 pounds lighter than when we left. This is the only explanation that I can see to cause such a difference (not to mention the caloric expenditue of paddling a couple of hours per day to add to the thermal effect). If it were the heat and constant sun exposure, I would have expected my wife to share similar losses. (Keep in mind that at 6’3″, starting the trip at 185 lbs and in quite good physical condition already, I was not expecting such a big loss).
Doesn’t surprise me. Obviously, there is always a change in diet that could account for it, but you probably noticed the increase in hunger. Remember, even at 30C, there is still a significant difference in temperature and I am sure that you had NO chance of heating up the “great big pond.”
good info! congratulations on the weight loss (I think).
Ray
I guess weight loss isn’t my goal, more body recomposition through fat loss and muscle gain to help with performance for all the sports I do. I just find the whole thermal aspect quite fascinating as I had never considered it before, yet now it seems so obvious. Keep up the great work, it’s all quite interesting.
Ok here comes the questions: 😉
IIf “dumping the backlog of metabolic heat” is just thermal regulation, then why isn’t generating heat to warm the body when cold also thermal regulation?
RE: “Unless the backlog of heat was caused by running, jumping, shivering, or some other activity, that evaporation is just a thermoregulatory balance” ….why would shivering be different than sweating?
Ok, here comes the answer. Let’s start with running. We know that when we run, most of the energy consumed produces waste heat. ALL of that heat comes from energy stored within the body. That is all calories burned and adds to the deficit.
Now, when we are just sitting idle, contemplating the lint in our navel, we are burning some amount of calories, our resting amount, or RMR. This includes everything from growing hair to blinking your eyes.
Just assume all of these functions produce about the same proportion of waste heat (80%). If we didn’t have a way to “dump” the waste heat, we would just cook from within. Most of it is radiated out through the skin. If that isn’t enough, then we start to sweat and that increases the rate of transfer. Blowing a fan over our body helps take more through faster evaporation and increased air over the skin surface.
So, now to your question. In running, that waste heat is calories burned and represents a big part of the number you see on the treadmill. That all fights the flab.
If you turn down the thermostat and just sit there, then you body senses the cooling trend and starts twitching and tightening muscles involuntarily to start making more heat. As well, if you have BAT, those mitochondria go nuts and also consume stored energy to produce heat.
If you turn up the thermostat and just sitting there, all you are doing is decreasing the efficiency, or rate, that heat naturally generated from your body can leave. When this builds up too much, you begin to sweat – even though you are not moving at ALL. The body isn’t sending out signals to move, it’s saying, slow down.
So, you are correct. Both are forms of thermal regulation, but in the case of external cooling, the metabolic response is to engage the muscular and metabolic system to produce heat/waste heat and in the case of external heating, the body’s only response is to sweat, with a perhaps slightly elevated heart rate and respiration.
make sense?
Ray
Absolutely makes sense. And now, I get it! VIVA LA COOLER TEMPERATURES!
Hi Ray,
I’ve been trying to understand exactly what physical process is using the extra energy (glucose) from the stored white fat when one is exposed to cold, but not yet shivering.
Regarding you comment earlier in this thread:
“If you turn down the thermostat and just sit there, then you body senses the cooling trend and starts twitching and tightening muscles involuntarily to start making more heat.”
It seems to me that this is where the rubber hits the road. i.e. It’s clear that muscles need ATP from glucose to perform this twitching and tightening.The glucose in question will be ultimately supplied from white fat, but only if the more readily available glucose sources are not available.
(I believe your twitching muscles would use your glycogen store before the fat store, but the glycogen store will be replenished by converting white fat to glycogen. Of course, this would only occur if no easier sources of glucose are made available to replenish the glycogen.)
Hopefully, I got the previous part right. Please correct me if I made mistake, but that seems to be my layman’s explanation for how the cold exposure leads to increased fat burn. (btw, I’m ignoring brown fat for now. I’m 37 and have no idea if I have enough brown fat to play a significant role in white fat loss.)
A little more detail:
Is “twitching and tightening muscles involuntarily” referring to shivering? I notice when I shiver. Or are you referring to to muscle contractions that I would not normally notice happening? Can you elaborate on which muscles are twitching and tightening in this pre-shiver case?
Regarding this “twitching and tightening muscles involuntarily” phenomena and exercising in cool water.
Does “twitching and tightening muscles involuntarily” explain Michael Phelps extra caloric loss while swimming?
How does it explain increased fat loss if I swim an hour in 72F water? I’m already swimming. Are you saying my muscles are doing some extra, unseen toning that entire swim to keep my core temperature up? (This would occur in addition to the major muscle groups that are already generating waste heat when used for swimming). And that this unseeable shiver is requiring glucose that accounts for an increased caloric burn swimming in cold water?
Or let’s just say walking in a 72F pool vs walking on 72F land with resistance straps mimicking water resistance .
In the pool, some muscles in my body are actually “toning” in addition to walking, and this extra toning is the crux of the increase in calories expended?
Really enjoying the blog. I’ve been swimming for an hour in the ocean 3-4 times a week in the mornings. Once a week I add skip breakfast and have the nutrient dense, calorically poor meal several hours later. Also, on the slow carb diet with some of your suggested enhancements regarding increased nutrient dense/calorically poor foods and more caution with portion size of calorically dense foods and alcohol.
Thanks in advance.
Ed
Ed
Sorry for the delay. I am going to give a simple answer as a more accurate answer is too involved for the moment. Basically, the construct of metabolism, the car analogy that I give, can be a little misleading. It turns out that to more properly put it in perspective imagine that the MPG and the HP change with both the level of fuel in the tank and how much fuel you just topped off. It’s a strange idea, but it turns out the body responds to intake of calorie in a predictable way. I will cover this side of diet induced thermogenesis along with calorimeter experiments to demonstrate the concept in a few weeks.
You correctly identified the two main outputs of waste heat: shivering and non-shivering thermogenesis. Modern day exercise can be thought of as a shivering “mimic.” It’s a bunch of excessive “muscle twitching” and at that point you are giving off ~80% waste heat for each 20% muscle work. But consider that thermal conductivity (rate of heat loss) is very high in water vs air that there are times when the body keeps draining heat in water when in air there would be a “slow down.” This is the sort of latent heat or flushed feeling after a run. In swimming you rarely get that unless the water is too warm (>82F/27C). I’m not a competitive swimmer, but I have interviewed a lot and when the water temp is bumped at the pool, they sweat (with no benefit) just like a runner. So when in a cool environment there is a more efficient transfer of heat and this can boost endurance, output, and performance. As well, it conditions you to tolerate much cooler environments when NOT exercising.
As well, when you think of an olympic swimmer, think of not just the effort exercised IN the water for many hours – e.g practicing technique, but also consider the time on the deck with water evaporating, frequent cold plunges for recovery, and many hours wearing very few layers (even when cool). The life of any swimmer (my kids included) involves lots of “cold plunges” in the spring/fall. The body adjusts, but all of these not only have a direct heat drain, but I believe hormonally up regulate RMR. It doesn’t take a big boost to have an effect over long term.
Finally in your example of land/water with resistence effort, there will be a thermal neutral point: the point where waste heat exactly equals loss to the environment. More effort, more heat and more cold, more loss – it’s a balance. Our tendency to be in thermal neutral environments for the majority of our lives (housing or excessive clothing) most likely has an overall metabolic impact. This is where people can get a big benefit, but it’s over a longer times of mild cold stress (i.e. where the body must produce heat bypassing the ATP step – mitochondrial upregulation). It happens not only in BAT mitochondria, but also in skeletal muscle tissue mitochondria. This week’s post will show one example. The swimming you are doing in the open water IS having an impact. Just resist the temptation to eat calorie dense foods in the window 2-4 hours after the swim if you want to maximize the fat burn.
The body reacts to changes, not absolutes. Weight creeps up over time and then a sudden diet/loss causes metabolic panic. The longer you remain “in weight” the more that will become the new set point.
we will discuss glycogen, sugar, fat, etc.. soon.
Thanks for the comment.
Ray
Thanks for the detailed reply.
I keep a bunch of .5kg bags of broccoli, cauliflower, and carrot mix in the freezer to chow on after long swims.
Quick question, is the term mitochondrial “unregulation” or “upregulation”? I hadn’t heard of that process occurring in skeletal muscle before. I guess the focus has been on BAT in 4HB and much of the comments here.
Thanks, that makes sense with pro swimmers lifestyle having the greater cumulative effect than just thinking about the swim time alone. I’ve recently moved from Rio de Janiero with 72F oceans to Playa del Carmen with 80-82F surface temps in July, and it is definitely harder to keep up the same intensity of the hour swim in the warmer water. Likewise, a cold shower here is probably >80 water, where the cold showers from the pipes in Rio felt closer to low 70’s/high 60’s. I never bother with the hot water here.
Very much looking forward to your next posts!
Cheers,
Ed
Ray,
I know this is not related to hypothermics but I just learned about this new medical technique for “dissolving” fat cells: Cryolipolysis. One paper described it as “Prolonged, controlled local skin cooling can induce selective damage and subsequent loss of subcutaneous fat, without damaging the overlying skin.”
From what I’ve read, this was just approved by FDA for fat loss and it appears to have solid supporting research.The technique works by just cooling fat cells for 30 min or so. There is much on the web about this showing localized cooling of body areas. I wonder if this could be done with just an ice bath or ice pack (can’t find any discussion of this question).
AJ
Not sure AJ. I get a lot of questions about this lately as you can probably imagine. Many confuse the two issues. I will look into it in the near future. If you don’t hear me comment on it in the next few weeks, please remind me.
Ray
from the internet:
Zeltiq aka CoolSculpting™: The Cool Solution
Now you can attack these problem areas with the non-invasive CoolSculpting procedure. A team of scientists and physicians developed the CoolSculpting procedure to address these problems. CoolSculpting utilizes a precisely controlled cooling method called Cryolipolysis™ to target, cool, and eliminate fat cells without damage to other tissue.
After a one- to three-hour CoolSculpting procedure, the patient’s body goes to work. Over the next two to four months, the crystallized fat cells break down and are naturally eliminated from the body.
don’t know anyone who’s had this procedure…but saw it demonstrated on Dr. Oz last month as well. Interesting.
2 things I like about this:
1. Non-evasive.
2. It KILLS the fat cells (unlike other methods just push the fat out of the cells).
Ray, superb article. Can you consider increasing the size of the text? The small text size makes it slightly difficult to read for me – check out the top 10 blogs and you’ll see their text is a bigger size.
Yes, I know. I used joomla before I switched over to WP and it had that nice function built in. I looked around at plugins, but haven’t had the time to implement it. I fully understand and it will be addressed in time.
In the mean time, try using firefox and go to View->Zoom and check zoom text only. Now, you can use the short cuts for +/- to make text larger and smaller. It’s a workaround, but I know how frustrating that can be…
Thanks!
Ray
Also, to do this in Explorer, just hold down shift and press the + sign.
Hi, Ray
Timothy Ferris think the effect of cold exposure in weight loss could be due brown fat cells stimulation.
However, I wonder if the main cause (or one of the causes) could come from extra caloric expenditure to keep the body at 36ºC. Considering that air thermal conductivity is 0.025 and water’s is 0,61, I think water would draws about 25 times more energy from an immersed body then air in a given period of time. Is that correct? If so, is there a way to calculate that extra caloric expenditure? Since you’re a scientist maybe you would know how to estimate that number.
It would be really nice to have a table with information on extra calories burned per hour or per minute in a 10ºC, 15ºC, 20ºC, etc.
Leo
Thanks Leo
yes, that is where I started 3 years ago, but the body is more clever than that. You’ll need to go back and read through the posts (first to last) and you’ll catch up here. As well, there is even more that is to come in the weeks ahead. It’s not as easy as sitting in water…unfortunately.
Ray
It’s not as easy as sitting in water…unfortunately.
No? I thought that is what the ice baths and cold showers were. I have read the old posts, but I must have missed something too.
Carlos,
If you review BATgirl 1&2 you’ll see that there are two different strategies.
The first is to activate the body’s non-shivering thermogenesis through surface skin receptors. This is Tim’s approach in protocol A & B. This quick approach activates BAT (if you have significant deposits) and consequently burns calories through mitochondrial heat production.
The second strategie is more of a cool soak, when your body is in a cool environment for much longer periods: lower thermostat, surfing, swimming, removing layers, etc…in this approach you are burning calories through BAT (when you have it) and muscle tone/slight shivering.
To simply “melt ice” and gain the thermodynamic benefit is not that effective. 66lbs of ice warmed to body temp = energy in 1 lb of fat. A lot of ice.
Keep in mind that Tims methods also have application in sleep enhancement and muscular recovery.
Hope that helps
Ray
Nice Post. I agree with the cold water calorie expenditure in the ocean. I was on holidays in Sydney in Dec and i was surprised at how thin i was considering how much i was eating anf drinking.
I put it down to sunlight and cold water swimming in Clovelly Beach.
side question; I have been having cold showers; I enjoy them…but am getting really dry; almost itchy skin on my back and have noticed some not so nice pimples dev. where i did not get them before cold showers…
what to do?
Being Cold Is Okay.
Eeek. No idea. Never heard this.
Ray
I was wondering if you could maybe try finishing off with a bit of a warm shower? As I know my sis has problems with the cold causing her “pores to close”.
We have always enjoyed the cold weather and that is what fasinated me when I heard about the 4HB.
My husband, two friends and I went on a snowmobiling trip to Canada a few years back. It was extremely cold (-30 to -10F all week.) Usually on these trips we put on a few pounds (not may salads in trail side establishments). After stuffing our selves at every opportunity, at the end of the week we had all lost a couple pounds. It was unbelievable.
Love the Burrrrrrr………………..
Fran
I find that when coupled with fun outdoors activity (like sledding, skiing, surfing, swimming, etc…) many people lose track and unintentionally thermal load. In these cases, armed with the knowledge, one can eat “normally” and contiously multiply the weight loss.
It’s amazing how much more frequently we gain weight on beach trips and not skiing.
In all of these cool outdoor activities, you adapt and are typically more than comfortable in an environment that might be called miserable back at the office. Perspective and adaptation are key to success.
Ray
So I’ve been just trying to get my diet under control and I’ve done very well for almost 3 weeks now. As has been pointed out before, THERMAL LOADING ACCELERATES WEIGHT LOSS IF YOU HAVE YOUR DIET UNDER CONTROL, OTHERWISE YOU ARE JUST SPINNING YOUR WHEELS.
So I’m getting ready to return to it. I was at the point before where i had no difficulty swimming in a 60 degree pool for 30 minutes (actually you freeze for hours after you get out so I don’t recommend it), taking 10 minute cold showers, or doing the icepack on the back of the neck. I’m probably just going to do the ice pack method for a couple of weeks to start out.
Question: Tim’s ice bath protocol includes taking cayenne pepper or thermogenic substances (I don’t recall exactly) about 30 minutes before the bath. Is there a reason for this? Is there some advantage to heating up the body first before doing the radical cold exposure?
Actually it’s not heating up the body but it’s speeding up metabolism? In any event, is the effectiveness of thermal loading increased in that regard?
Jeff,
“Cayenne pepper” is a spice that has a high Scoville value. And, it’s very acidic. It decreases the pH of the blood making it more acidic. This forces the body to rebalance. I suspect this is the aim of of ingesting the spicy treat.
Not sure where you got your calculator from but 260lb does not equate to 177.5kg…
A quick google search shows: 1 kg = 2.20462262 lbs
260lb is about 118.2Kg…
and..
177.5Kg is 391.32051505 lbs!
You might want to double check that math…
Hey Ray,
Can you update your post with the correct calculations for the weight as I mention in the reply above?
It’s hard for me to find individual comments other than recent. Can you email it to me?
Ray
Hi Ray– friend of Chris Dayton and my son was talking about you coming to movie night and some of what you said, so I’ve been reading through. I’m a pediatrician. Love this blog and had an idea for an analogy you might use when people have trouble with the heat part. We don’t open our refrigerators in summer to cool down the house, because the fridge doing work makes heat in order to get cold. We would make more heat than the cold we would release. Our body doesn’t have the option of being like an AC, where the heat goes outside right away. Any time we do metabolic work, the heat is produced inside us, not just on the surface. In cold weather, the heat has somewhere to go– in hot, as you say, the options are limited. Our goal then is to cool without doing extra work, as much as possible. It wouldn’t make a lick of sense for us to burn extra calories and heat ourselves up even more.