We learned in Part 1 that not only do human infants start out with more fat than any other species, a higher percentage is brown adipose tissue (BAT). Women, in general have more than men and as Humans age, BAT seems to dwindle. It’s likely if you have ever been obese, you have less BAT then your skinny friends.Custom gummibåt
I have dozens of papers here on BAT. My interest with BAT began after Tim and I discussed it at length and started exchanging ideas and data. Honestly, I came to my conclusions from the complete opposite (but complimentary) approach – it was much more of a 30,000 ft level view on the subject.
To me, it was a simple thermodynamic balance I was seeking and at the time really didn’t care how the body accomplished it.
The details, as I am still learning, are important. Part of the problem is the complete disconnect between thermodynamic balance (or heat regulation) and Diet/Exercise. There are huge science stockpiles on both, but little interaction other than referenced papers.
Further, If you listen to the media reports on my/Tim’s work, doctors conclude: no one wants to be miserably cold, so we recommend you just starve yourself and work out more often. Ok, I took editorial liberties, but that is how it sounds to me. This is a serious point. In a sound-bite crazed world, with no one digging in, we have inadvertently ignored clearly one third of the total energy equation.
My thesis is simple: Diet, Exercise, and Thermal Load (environmental conditions) are ALL important. Why?
[wade forward at your own risk – geek alert]
Returning to BAT, there has been an increase lately of researchers trying to decipher a somewhat chicken and egg argument: do we become fat because we have less BAT or is there some evolutionary response to be more insulated by a fat (WAT) or store energy in response to the environment? A second question is what role does BAT play in the overall thermogenesis scheme in our bodies? There are other intriguing questions, but over the last 12 months, I looked around to see what could be found in the literature on these two.
I don’t want to dig through all the metabolic details, because at this point there is no one conclusive answer. There is a lot of persuasive evidence that demonstrate an inverse relationship of BAT and obesity; BAT (difficult to measure quantitatively) is lower in obese and higher in lean populations assuming we measure in a modern, thermal conditioned world. For now, if you don’t have BAT, you can’t make any more (it’s being studied), so my focus has stayed on the overall system, independent of the metabolic pathways.
Until my core temperature begins to fall it simply MUST take more energy to keep me toasty warm in a cold environment vs a hot one.
One thing that everyone seems to agree on is that all Humans respond to cold by increasing metabolic rate. In rare cases like Wim Hof, a person is trained to create an even larger response than natural. Wim is convinced he can teach anyone to do it and we are working on that reality now. On this site, I have discussed the three levels of reaction to cold: diminished skin/extremities blood circulation and non essentials through complex vasoconstriction, singles sent throughout the body for muscle tone resulting in waste heat production, and finally full on shivering.
Somewhere within this response is activation of BAT that simultaneously engages mitochondria to consume free fatty acids (FFA) and glucose to produce heat – bypassing the normal ATP production. Many cold exposure experiments report elevated FFA during recovery and some suggest that impaired mitochondrial lipid oxidation is a cause of obesity.
My focus has been on the simple metabolic response to cold/cool environment and as it turns out, the BAT activation comes at no extra cost – if I have any. I didn’t care if I had BAT or not, but whether or not I could induce increased metabolic activity causing extra caloric deficit and weight loss. I know the answer is yes, because it worked for me and others. I believe Tim’s body type and frame would have much more BAT and for him, he benefits from it.
The issue that many have raised here and elsewhere is: what about overweight people? do they have extra layers of fat that insulate them from cold? It’s interesting, because the answer seems to be NO, the insulation value of fat doesn’t count as much as the muted thermogenic response to cold in the obese population. I turns out in several studies that the core body muscle is the primary insulation nearly 80%. Overweight people have a blunted response to cold and tend to shut down that response more quickly than our skinny friends, but they still have a significant response and corresponding metabolic boost.
Our response is NEVER zero and the good news is that we can all still take advantage of active thermogenesis even if we don’t have the BAT gene. Like our weight gain, it will require lots of exposure over longer times. Just as important trying to keep out of POSITIVE heat situations (like extended saunas, bikram yoga, or hot tubs).
This in fact leads to an important twist, while it is often described as our body’s need to regulate temperature, it turns out, there is little data that supports a “need” for 98.6F/37C, but in fact that is the RESULT of regulating heat (a form of energy not temperature). This gets very heady quick and so I won’t go into the details, but we can summarize (generally) in this way.
You may or may not have BAT and if you do, it will contribute to a measurable expenditure of energy when activated by cold. At the same time, the rest of your body will also have an increased activity through muscle tone and both perceptible and non-perceptible shivering. Those of us that tend to be obese probably have a muted response in the hypothalamus (the heat regulator) that causes our body to store more energy and conserve heat.
We’ll come back to heat balance as it is an important issue. The summery for everyone is that BAT has played an important role in the evolutionary response to cold. It was a critical part of ALL of our lives as infants. It remains in some and very well could be the deciding factor of obese/not obese, but it’s not the whole story. If you don’t have BAT, but can still measure your temperature at 98.6F/37C plus/minus a degree or so, you are in luck; you have everything necessary to begin adding a thermal load to your diet and exercise program and multiply the rate at which you lose weight.
For me, that was the difference between success and failure. Then again, I don’t enjoy marathons as they seem miserable (to quote my physician foil on abcnews.com). Like the range of walking up to running marathons, there is a spectrum of cold exposure solutions from bandaid get it done ice baths to living comfortably lightly dress at 60F/15C instead of 72F/22C.
If we succeed in putting thermal load into the scope of all diet/exercise discussion, I think many new results will emerge.
(1) Rogge MM., The role of impaired mitochondrial lipid oxidation in obesity, Biol Res Nurs. 2009 Apr;10(4):356-73. Epub 2009 Feb 3.
(2) Wijers SLJ, Schrauwen P, Saris WHM, van Marken Lichtenbelt WD, 2008 Human Skeletal Muscle Mitochondrial Uncoupling Is Associated with Cold Induced Adaptive Thermogenesis. PLoS ONE 3(3): e1777. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0001777
(3) Heaton JM, The distribution of brown adipose tissue in the human, J. Anat. (1972), 1, pp. 35-39.
(4) Cypess AM, et al. Identification and Importance of Brown Adipose Tissue in Adult Humans, N Engl J Med 2009;360:1509-1517.
(5) Enerbäck S, The Origins of Brown Adipose Tissue, N Engl J Med 2009;360:2021-2023.
(6) Veicsteinas A, et al. Superficial shell insulation in resting and exercising men in cold water. J Appl Physiol 1982; 52:1557–64.
How long do you need to take a cold shower for it to be affective. I have been starting with warm water for the first 2 minutes and finishing with cold for the last 5 to 7 minutes. Is that long enough? I have been doing this for the last 2 weeks and it keeps getting easier.
Len
I don’t think there is a single answer to your question. I believe yours is more than adequate and you should feel the elevation in a pulse rate, and a general exhilaration afterwards. Are you noticing the beneficial effects for sleeping? Is this morning or night?
Ray
How long did you find that it took you to adjust to 60 degrees?
And did you adjust the thermostat gradually or…? Thanks!
I didn’t time it, but I can now just routinely go back and forth. There is a slight sensation of tension in my body – only perceptible if I really think about it. Every now and then I will shiver just a tiny bit, even though I am not mentally cold at all. A draft or something causes it, so I know that I am right at the edge (at least for my body). Warm feet are a must for me and if I feel even a little chilled I have ear bags that I use.
below 60F/15C I have to add gloves for extended exposure and no activity. At 32F/0C I have to add a light jacket…
Ray
Thanks! That’s really helpful. 🙂
I have started putting the ice packs on my shoulders and back because that is where Tim says the BAT would be located, is there a specific area I should be focusing on, like in the middle of the upper back or just on top of the shoulder blades? Tim says to do it for 20-30 min, after this do we get diminishing returns or is 30 min the magic number?
It will only work if you have BAT left. With age, we lose it. However, as Ray has pointed out it will still be beneficial even if you have none left because it raises your metabolism temporarily by up to 300%(?). It’s hard to believe 300%… but I believe that is what the book said. Not positive.
One can get up to 600% increase in metabolic rate at full-on shivering, but not forever as hypothermia would eventually set in. I wanted to go for the more reasonable boost of about 15-20% and that can happen in cool environments as well.
Ray
Thanks for clarifying that, Ray. I’m not sure it’s a smart idea now.. doing ice therapy with slow carb diet. I say that because I won’t be able to track the results properly.
I’ve been doing an hour to an hour and a half with five jelly cold packs. I like to lay on the couch shirtless and put on a good movie. Usually 3/4 through the movie the cold packs are at room temperature. I start with two on my chest, one on my neck, one on my upper back, and one on my mid-stomach. At the 30-minute mark I switch to one on each bicep, one on my lower stomach, and the other two on my love handles.
Also, I have been wearing under armour heat gear for the past three months and just realized this may aid thermal loading. Initially, I was wearing them for compression of my fatness and muscle recovery. I noticed one day standing outside with some friends in 40F weather that I was the only one shivering, everyone was wondering why I was so cold. I had chopped it up to my coat not being warm enough.
Under armour heat gear is designed to keep you cool, and is skin tight. I dont know the science, I just know that I am definitly unable to keep by body warm while wearing an under armour heat gear undershirt as apposed to a cotton t-shirt.
Perhaps this along with cold packs and cold showers could yeild greater results?
That’s an interesting idea about using heat gear to keep cool – has anyone tried this out?
It’s lonely being the only skeptic in the audience, but I’d like to sum up what I’ve learned from the last couple of weeks of study (here and elsewhere), draw a few conclusions, and suggest future avenues of research. (Please point out any errors!)
Thermogenesis (i.e., the direct creation of heat energy in the body, and not a result of motor activity) is either dietary-influenced (i.e., resulting from the body’s attempt to maintain a body-fat set-point), which can be hacked by ephedrine or other thermogenic foods; or, thermally-influenced (i.e., resulting from the body’s attempt to maintain a narrow range of core temperature), which can be stimulated by cold therapy, which this site addresses.
Thermogenesis mechanics are not completely understood, but involves the sympathetic nervous system, acting through the hypothalamus and mediated via norepinephrine levels. Thermogenesis occurs in the mitochondria of both muscle tissue and the relatively rare brown adipose tissue, or BAT, which is very closely related to muscle tissue, despite being classified as fat. I have not discovered where the temperature-sensing nerves originate which signal to the hypothalamus, but the feedback seems to be core temperature-related.
That a person burns more calories in a cold environment than in a warm environment should be obvious. Similarly, but not as well-addressed, is the fact that dietary food temperature alters the caloric content of food, e.g., a hot cup of black coffee contains more calories (literally) than a body-temperature cup of coffee (close to zero dietary calories), while a cold cup of coffee contains negative calories (vis-a-vis the body in a state of thermogenesis) because body heat will transfer to the cold coffee, lowering core temperature, and thus signaling to the hypothalamus for increased thermogenesis.
Ray suggests spending considerable time at low temperature in order to stimulate thermogenesis as an effective method of fat-loss. But, increasing thermogenesis results in increased appetite. Increased appetite with unrestrained eating will result in increased calories and thus calorie storage. Restrained eating (as suggested by Ray) is uncomfortable, and thus difficult.
To wit, the suggested protocol is to be cold and hungry. (In all fairness, Ray says you get used to the cold. Well… maybe. When I pointed this out in my comment to an earlier post, Mike Busch replied: “Actually, quite a lot of the appetite concerns can be addressed with the Slow/Low-Carb diet. That will keep insulin spikes down to restrict storage glucose as fat.” Although he used the word “actually,” it seems more like speculation. If restraining one’s eating is so easy, as (I think) he was suggesting, why not restrain your current calorie-intake even further and continue living at a comfortable temperature in order to achieve the same effect?
Many of the commenters on this site are disciples of Tim Ferris and the 4HB; I’m familiar with the book, and recently began a weight-loss strategy based mostly on the principles he espoused. (I have not experienced the magical results that he suggests are possible, but I was already eating a very clean diet and exercising regularly. I’m down about eight pounds over three weeks time, but have only lost about half an inch on my waist. I’m using a very modest approach to cold-therapy.) The cold-therapy that Tim details, however, becomes increasingly less logical the more I read in medical literature.
My conclusions:
There is no magic number for cold-therapy. Increased thermogenesis is proportional to the thermal load you place on your body, e.g., a ten-minute cold shower is twice as effective as a five-minute cold shower; a sixty-degree shower is roughly twice as effective as an eighty-degree shower of the same duration; immersion in running water is more effective than still water of the same temperature for the same duration (via convective losses); the same with air; drinking a large cup of icy water will bring about thermogenesis, but if you follow it with a large cup of hot coffee the net effect approaches nil.
Thermogenesis is a core temperature-related phenomenon, controlled through the hypothalamus (which is in the brain); I’ve found no evidence that it is stimulated locally. Therefore, I conclude that ice packs on the chest / neck / upper back are only effective to the extent that they lower your overall temperature. There is no magical connection between ice pack location and BAT thermogenesis.
For that matter, there isn’t much point in focusing on BAT; it is relatively rare, even in people that have it, and BAT thermogenesis operates pretty much like skeletal muscle thermogenesis.
Non-shivering thermogenesis uses primarily FFA; shivering thermogenesis uses even more calories, but uses an increasing (with intensity) proportion of glucose for fuel. (I.e., don’t torture yourself.)
Vigorous exercising while in the cold may nullify the thermogenic effect of the low temperature. The waste energy generated by motor activity will attenuate the thermal load created by the low temperature environment. If you have the time, separate the modalities.
Cold-therapy will increase your appetite, requiring will power to resist ingesting the additional calories in order to maintain the calorie deficit you’ve earned.
The future:
I’m looking for loopholes to this phenomenon, strategies that will maximize effect while minimizing suffering. I originally became interested in cold-therapy about a decade ago when I read of (Ant?)Arctic researchers who became lean during their tenure, while subsisting on a junk food diet. The effect was assumed, I think I recall, to be related to their breathing frigid air. (I’m guessing they would have dressed for the weather, and wouldn’t have necessarily been cold.) Anyone know about this? (I can’t locate the original report.) Anyway, I began spending more time exercising outside, without noticeable effect. (I wasn’t dieting at the time.) But perhaps there is something to that idea, or other obscure studies that Ray hasn’t come across. I’d like to see this site become a collaborative clearinghouse of science and application of cold-therapy, not a place to pester Ray for personal advice. If he knows something, it’s probably already posted here and you should apply techniques as you see fit. Experiment on yourselves (that’s what Ray and Tim did!), and report back with what worked and what didn’t. We’re smarter as a group than we are on our own.
Yo…feral boy
There are many answers to your questions above in upcoming posts. I will try to get through this, but I think you’ve done a good job at identifying some of the key issues, but I don’t agree with all of your conclusions. My focus has been on the larger picture of increased thermal load and know that all of the individual mechanism are engaged. Heat, not temperature appears to be the core regulatory driver, but I just keep most discussions on temperature, because the concept is more widely understood.
I have a lot of recommendations upcoming on the exercise/thermal loading, but I want to get as much info on protocols in 4HB as possible before we start moving in that direction.
I KNOW it works.
Great comments. great thought. I agree that some focused self-experiments are the right course. GIve me a few more weeks to lay out the overview and if this group is supportive, I will launch a forum and we can move over to that area for discussion. There has not been that many contributions to the “research fund,” but THANKS ot everyone that has done so.
Ray
Hi Ray,
Thanks for this site and all info provided.
I’ve been reading a lot about BAT since reading 4HB and going through your site.
In some of the research I’ve read it is stated that test subjects have 2 oz. or 3/4 oz of BAT. Is there a standard test that can be done to check this out? I know there is no real benefit of knowing the number, just curiosity.
Nathan
it’s complicated to test for BAT and if you don’t have any…then what? It turns out that all the things one does to activate BAT are identical to things that activate overall thermogenesis in the body. I will be putting up more general things to do in the upcoming weeks.
Ray
I do believe the cold stimulates hunger.
I think it has to do with TRPM8 channel? The channel that senses menthol & cold. Signals hunger. Can’t remember my neuroscience today.
Interesting idea… Can using menthol dissolved in cool water accelerate the thermogenic(?) response of the body?
I’ve been asked this before, but have not had time to run it down. I’m nit sure if the cool feeling is due to evaporative cooling from material with a low evaporation temp or a nerve ending stimulant like a pepper.
Need to look into it.
Ray
Hmm… How practical would it be to use a liquid with a lower evaporation point compared to water?
Probably not that practical. Direct conduction is more efficient than evaporation, although our body naturally relies on radiation and evaporation (skin and sweat). Thermal conductivity and heat capacity of water are large…
Ray
…And does using a stimulant produce the same results from the body as using cool water?
THANKS RAY!!! For this website all that you are doing to help us. I have a question that I believe is my issue. What is impaired mitochondrial lipid oxidation? Is there anything to correct this?
I have read that interval training increases your mitochrondria. I believe a fair amount of my mitochrondria has disappeared over the years. I have been doing Tim’s slow carb diet along with a good amount of aerobic exercise. I have recently included 10min cold showers 5x’s a week along with a cold dip in 4ft of 52 degree water three times a week. So far its working but like with everything else I have tried over the years my body seems to get to a point where it kind of slows down and adapts to whatever energy producing stress I put it under.
Usually during these times I would lower my caloric intake to around 800 to a 1000 calories a day only to discover after awhile would slow down my metabolism. Have added Tim’s suggestion of a cheat day once a week and that so far is working for me but I am really paranoid this will all stop working like the other things I have tried so far.
I noticed that my body burns hot a lot of the time.Sometimes I get hot flashes out of nowhere. I will just break out in flop sweat when 5 minutes before I was totally comfortable in a reasonably cool environment. Have you known anybody else experience things like this? I would certainly be a test case study for both you and Tim.
Hot “flashes” does not sound normal. Are you male or female? Are you past the age of 40?
I have increased my thermal loading in a pretty drastic manner 2-3 weeks ago (entering third week of measurements today) and I’m experiencing random mild hot flashes as well. Not really sweating from them but I can definitely sense that my sensors are “confused”. I guess this can be expected when putting this unexpected stress on yourself.
Typo: “singles sent throughout the body for muscle tone resulting in waste heat production, and finally full on shivering.”
I’m pretty sure you mean “signals”. Unless you meant “Shingles (herpes zoster)”. But that makes even less sense. 🙂
hi everyone. great discussions ( polite ) around here. i have been letting my flat going down to 17 degrees celsius for the last week. not really uncomfortable but i am feeling it, a full non shivering thermogenesis. opposite to other people i find that i have no increase in hunger. it actually seems the contrary. i have had a steady diet-exercise routine for some time, which works for me ( very low carb + varied exercise’s type ). i am adding now a lower temperature environment, which is easy done right now as i live in the heart of the dolomites. my only concern is the immune system response. i haven’t been sick for ages but in coincidence , although i am not sure it is the cause, i seem to have caught a little bronchitis.
anyway i am eagerly reading this very interesting information. of one thing i am sure of: we as human, nowadays, eat too much and have no more winters as our ancestor had. at times it is better to go back a little.
Hi Ray! I hope all is well with you 🙂 I have a question about utilizing capsaicin and flavonoids in the effort to boost my body’s fat burning and to stimulate growth of BAT: Does it matter the quantity, frequency, timing or delivery method? The reason i ask is because i’ve been ingesting cayenne pepper first thing in the morning (roughly 1000 mg in a capsule) with my herbal coffee with cocoa powder, then with my meals, and then before bed. If you’ve any guidance to offer me, i’d be grateful. Many thanks! And patiently waiting for “My Broken Plate”. Enjoy your days 🙂