Brown Adipose Tissue can be used to effectively lose weight as is detailed in the 4-hour body, by Tim FerrissAccording to 2009 study in the New England Journal of Medicine, women have the advantage over men when it comes to Brown Adipose Tissue (BAT) and this could lead to a genetic advantage when trying to lose weight(1).
    What’s BAT and why should you care?  It turns out that there are two main sources of adipose (fat) tissue in your body.  The  white adipose tissue (WAT) “flavor” is what you see in steak, a strip of bacon,  and  jiggling in the mirror.  It’s the kind of fat we are all trying to lose. 

    Brown Adipose Tissue is actually “the good fat” and it’s an active part of the energetic side of your metabolism. Think of all fat as fuel and know that BAT is simply fuel with a built in furnace.  The secret is that a cool environment causes these furnaces to run at full blast and that creates a high “caloric utility bill.”

    Let’s spend a little more time understanding BAT and then we’ll talk about some of the ideas behind the science of BAT referred to in The 4-hour body.  Inside your cells are many mitochondria and these tiny organelles are the body’s power plants. They produce ATP, which is ultimately the source of most of your energy.  BAT is a special kind of fat that is just loaded with mitochondria.  That and the vascularity to supply it with nutrients is what makes it “brown.”  Many cold water aquatic mammals, and even small mammals like rodents, have significant BAT to keep them warm.  BAT has this special way of short circuiting the traditional energy cycle and consuming fat to produce heat.

    That’s a great thing, but all you need to remember is that BAT is a fuel that comes with a built-in furnace.

    geek alert – it’s going to get a little technical.


    Humans aren’t loaded with BAT, at least as adults. Our infants, on the other hand are an fat-oddity of nature by any mammal standard. They are born with the most amount of total adipose tissue (15%) of any mammal: more than harp seals, sea lions, reindeer, or elephant seals and  have the largest percentage of heat-generating BAT (1-3%) (2). It’s interesting that we start out better equipped than these other mammals designed to live completely in the cold.

    Many studies have show that the BAT is located primarily in the supraclavical are and it is typically activated with cold exposure to make visible.

    The problem is that we lose much of our BAT by the age of 10, but what remains of our baby-BAT keeps metabolically active for the rest of our lives. Even as an adult, there may be plenty of BAT to have a significant impact on metabolic rate if regularly activated. The main location for BAT is on the the supraclavicular region around chest and back of shoulders/neck (see diagrams). There is some evidence that we may also have disseminated brown adipocytes throughout our sucutaneous WAT stores.

    The heat-generating capability of BAT comes from a evolutionary metabolic inefficiency. Typically, the mitochondria in cells consume energy in the form of free fatty acids (FFA) and glucose to create and store ATP. In BAT these tiny mitochondria power plants are influenced by a special uncoupling protein 1 (UPC 1), which makes the membranes of the mitochondria “leaky” and they release heat instead of storing ATP.

    BAT uses only about 10% glucose and so FFA is primarily what is consumed.    Most of what we know comes from studying rodents, but we know that Humans have BAT and that it remains active into adulthood.

    So how do they detect BAT? How do you know if you are BATty? It turns out to be pretty complex. By using a PET-CT scan and a specially marked form of glucose (F-FDG), researchers can cause BAT to activate and it shows on the scan. Typically, they do a biopsy at the same time and compare the images to microscopy of tissue.  It’s not enough to simply put the marker in the body, but the BAT also must be activated. This activation is accomplished through cold exposure(3).

    Many different methods have been used to induce metabolic activity in BAT. Some studies have used cold rooms, others immersions, and some just use feet/hands. It seems that there are many biological stimuli that tell the body to crank up the heat.

    To think about the body and heat production in another way, let’s walk through the various steps of response to cold. Normally as you walk around in every day living, there is an excess of heat given off by the many different biochemical processes of life – walking, breathing…everything living in your body generates excess heat as a byproduct. As long as there is plenty of excess, your body simply keeps what it needs to stay 98.6F/37C and rejects the rest. If it can’t get lose it fast enough, you sweat to speed up the process. This is why sitting in a sauna doesn’t by comparison require any extra energy (accept elevated heart rate and heat stress).

    As the difference between the temperature of your body and the environment around you increases, the heat leaves at a faster and faster rate (Newton’s Law of Cooling). Cold doesn’t come in, heat goes out. At some point, and there are many triggers, your body senses the beginning of a potential core temperature drop. It begins a process of now telling all parts of your body to generate heat and begins to shut down non-essential heat “wasters” (hands, toes, nose, ears, etc…).

    By shutting down flow to the extremities and to the skin, the body slows down the rate of heat loss.  If this isn’t enough, BAT and other non-shivering thermogenesis (heat generating) activities kick in.  It could be as subtle as a leg twitch, an urge to rub your hands together, or just moving around that solve the heat deficit. If that isn’t enough non perceptible muscle “tone” sets in and all of your muscle fibers start to just tighten thereby using energy and generating the excess heat your body needs.

    Comparative PET–CT scans reveal the patterns of 18F-FDG uptake in the same subject from the lean group after exposure to cold and under thermoneutral conditions. Lichtenbelt, WD et al. N. Engl. J. Med. 360, 1500–1508 (2009)

    Finally, when this is insufficient, a progression between non-perceptible shivering and full on “Andrew’s in the cold shower” uncontrollable shaking (still laughing Andrew).  What you should see is there is a range of response to the degree of exposure. Your body can generate nearly 4-5 times it’s resting metabolism rate by shaking like a hula bobble-doll on on a wooden roller coaster.

    Cold adaptation for Humans does not come in the form layering more bodyfat like a walrus; it’s putting on a sweater, coat, or cranking up the heat and in severe case it is a diminished (not eliminated) response to cold. BAT is more than likely the very first step in this process and anything you do to activate it on a daily basis is good for burning excess energy. 

    The downside, however, is that many studies have shown that BAT goes down with increasing obesity levels. There doesn’t seem to be any clear indication that it is a cause and effect. Rather, it’s more of an observation that obese individuals tend to have less BAT. It may be  obesity is related to the biochemical make up and your body’s ability to generate excess heat. Many are looking at ways to convert WAT into BAT or to induce the the growth of new BAT. Women seem to have more BAT than men according to Cypress(1) and gram-for gram, BAT is excellent at contributing to your caloric deficit by consuming energy stored as fat.

    The good news is that in Part 2, we’ll learn that while BAT is useful if you have it, but it may not be necessary to benefit from thermal loading.  We’ll look at a suprising twist of biophysics and evolution involving mitochondria (remember? – the cell’s furnace), which may allow anyone to exploit the power of cool.

    (1) Cypess AM et al. Identification and Importance of Brown Adipose Tissue in Adult Humans, N Engl J Med 2009;360:1509-1517.

    (2) Aherne W, and Hull D (1966) Brown adipose tissue and heat production in the newborn infant. J. Pathol. Bact. 91:223–234.

    (3) Lichtenbelt, WD et al. Cold-activated brown adipose tissue in healthy men. N. Engl. J. Med. 360, 1500–1508 (2009)

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47 Responses to BATgirl to The Rescue (Part 1)

  1. jo we says:

    You mentioned that BAT goes down as obesity levels go down. Is that an absolute amount or just the ratio? As a former 380lb person, now 185 (thru diet and exercise) does that mean I have little to no BAT, does it reformulate, or MAYBE I had less to begin with?

    • admin says:

      hmmmm….did I say that? whoops! It should be that BAT goes down with INCREASING obesity levels. In other words, there seems to be an inverse relationship with obesity and fat. Before you get too excited, it may only be one way. Part of the reason you and I gained weight may be related to having less BAT then our “thin friends.”

      We just don’t know what your BAT is and we’ll find out that while it’s a little bonus, it won’t matter that much in the end.

      This is only simple correlations at this time and I haven’t found anything that positively states BAT goes up and down, other than at age 60 there seems to be a ripple in the data. There will be a little more on BAT – particularly how it relates to WAT and overall effectiveness with thermal loading.

      Regardless of your size or BAT%, you can generate a metabolic response from cool temperature exposure.

      • jo we says:

        Sorry that was a misqoute on my part… just wondering if it was a weight dependent thing… not really justifying why my skinny brothers can stuff twinkies and Im eating chicken and veggies…

      • admin says:

        Oh…no, I fixed it. You were right, it wasn’t clear. There are some new ideas of both your and my metabolism being having “impaired mitochondrial lipid oxidation.”

        Alabama speak: our tiny furnaces ain’t putting out sh!t.

        I may be that in the presence of plentiful calories, many of our bodies just get the insulin-glucose-heat-leptin balance all out of whack. The net result is an overall dragging metabolism.

        My answer over the last 2 years was to 1) increase the thermal load on my body and 2) find creative ways to enjoy the food I like in a limited way.

        I still have a little more work to do on the thermal loading side – I believe there are some creative ways to get this right.

        more to say later, but just ignore the “twinks” for now. Perhaps we can put you back in the game.

        CONGRATULATIONS on 200 FREAKING pounds!!! wow!!

  2. Jeff Morgan says:

    So do you think the Ferris ice pack method is effective or not?

    • admin says:

      Yes. I think that anything used to stimulate cold response kicks of metabolism. I just don’t know how much and for how long. Considering that 168 extra calories a week (16 M&Ms) is enough to gain 50 lbs over 20 years, I find myself focusing on the many small things we can do to burn an extra 168 calories-per day. That is an extra 17.5 lbs a year if one holds the average.

      The real lesson is that it has to be based on a solid baseline diet/exercise. The exercise is primarily for cardiovascular fitness (unless you love it) and this can be done at a minimum maintenance phase. Once there is a baseline, adding thermal loading DEFINITELY boost the daily caloric deficit, but appetite must be controlled.

      Lot’s more coming…

      • Jeff Morgan says:

        I know. I know. I can’t out exercise my mouth. I love the phrase but I need some extra help in the area of self control.

  3. Gil Mike says:

    Hey Ray,

    Very interesting read. This was actually one of the points I researched after reading 4HB (I wanted a little bit more evidence about it). I’ve been trying to use cold packs and cold showers (which, for the most part, I cannot do), and wanted to ask if more time should be better? I use a cold pack on my back for about an hour, and could probably use one on my chest (since there’s supposed to be some BAT in there too), and could also do it for maybe longer than an hour. Do you think that’s a good idea, or is it just plain overkill?

    Mike

    • admin says:

      I wish I knew, but I don’t. What most of my experience was with is extended exposure to cooler temperatures, rather than short exposure to cold. In the literature you probably found that thermoneutral conditions are typically around 72F/22C in air. That is not very cold. Mild cold is considered 60F/16C in air.

      Water has a much larger heat capacity AND heat transfer coefficient. It pulls heat out faster and so thermoneutral in water is perhaps 8-10 higher. If these temperatures significantly activated BAT, then somewhere around 60F/16C air is a great place of comfort. Personally, that has become indefinite shorts/t-shirt temperature. I don’t feel cold until air reaches 40F/5C.

      My work has centered on maximizing the total heat loss and fortunately all of the metabolic benefits of BAT, etc…come along with the ride. Not sure that this helps, but I will explain more in part 2 and in future programs.

      Ray

  4. Shivadxb says:

    cant wait for part 2. BAT is very interesting stuff especially when you consider its possible role in our evolutionary past perhaps even as a throwback we retain from our pre hominid days. v v fascinating stuff

    • admin says:

      thanks…It gets a lot deeper, Just don’t know where the line is for people. I have been fascinated with this entire approach for over 2 years and I KNOW it can play a significant role in fitness..

      Ray

      • Shivadxb says:

        been pondering of late, am apt to.
        One of the last things things that happens to babies during gestation is the development of BAT, an evolutionary survival trait for newborns that i feel is worthy of note.

        Given the length of human evolution and the relatively minute time we have spent in centrally heated shelter our “discovery” of BAT and its relation to metabolism and thermogenesis is probably an accidental stumbling into a process that was vital to our survival for millennia.

        The process of repeated exposure to cold for extended periods is merely a mimicry of an evolutionary experience that would have plagued our ancestors. Whilst we opt to use it to lose weight and return to a normal metabolic state we are in fact attempting to stimulate a process which is probably built into our genetic makeup. This would would explain why it works of course but more importantly would help to explain what has gone wrong in the first place.

        These thoughts lead me to numerous questions including:

        we seem to lose BAT as we mature from infants, is this in fact a relatively modern phenomenon?

        Are the levels of BAT in ancient or more traditional cultures different from the average city dweller? I’d suspect so

        Would it be possible to estimate or measure the BAT levels in ancient mummies especially the likes of Otzi ?

        as ever too many questions to be manageable

      • admin says:

        All Great points and you will like Part 2 when I post it. The evolutionary nature of this is really interesting. I think that BAT is only part of the story for many of us, while some of us it may be of primary importance. It may turn out that Tim and I represent two different paths as he has never trended toward obesity and began this all at a much earlier age.

        Ray

  5. Robert Kemp says:

    The Lichtenbelt study you cite is confusing; they show increased BAT activity (during cold exposure of 16C/61F) on their scans, yet ultimately conclude, without much ado, that “contrary to our expectation, there was no significant relation between brown-adipose-tissue activity and cold-induced thermogenesis. The most likely reason is that other tissues, such as skeletal muscle, may be involved in the thermogenic response.” Do you have a different interpretation of this?

    Also, the increase in metabolism from this study was reported as 5-30% (about 4-25kcal/hour based upon their numbers). Sure, we’ll take all we can get, but this seems like a lot of hoopla for that magnitude of increase.

    Additional questions:

    Since non-shivering thermogenesis also occurs in skeletal muscle, using the same pool of FFAs, why focus on the relatively rare BAT?

    BAT appears to be concentrated within thoracic fat deposits, far from the surface. Can cold-packs really elicit a temperature change at that depth? And, for that matter, is it local temperature, or a core temperature-induced hormonal signal, that triggers BAT and other thermogenesis? After drinking 1L of ice water, I’ll occasionally start shivering – this must be a core temperature-related reaction, no?

    • admin says:

      Robert…

      All VERY good points. Stay tuned I think you will find Part 2 interesting. On the caloric increase, take a careful look at those numbers and think about them in the context of everything you’ve seen me write on this site…cool exposure over longer times can generate significant calorice deficit. When one compares 5-30% increase in metabolic rate (per hour) at MODERATE cool exposure, this can add up to significant RMR rate elevation for relatively no extra effort.

      If I could put a pill up that guaranteed a 30% increase, would you take it? I can tell you this simple focus on BAT, does not represent the BIGGEST gains that can be seen through thermal loading. I will explain in time. BAT is not the major source of energy expenditure for long-term thermal load, but it is a significant contribution.

      I agree that one should focus on both approaches. There are underlying implications that should not be ignored. The role of varying mitochondrial function and specifically UCP1 in the overall caloric surplus/deficit resulting in individuals may very well be a big part of our problem. While some of us thrive in our technically advanced calorie-dense world, many get short changed.

      For me it was a simple choice: run 2 marathons a week or cool. For me, cooling was less miserable. Media and many in medical field go to the extreme an say “no one will do that.” People have been taught that it’s all about diet (gimmicks) and exercise (equipment). I believe it’s a energy balance: nutrition-exercise-thermal load. I’ve never taken an ice bath, but I will try in time. I believe Tim’s approach has merit, but I didn’t see it until I read the book – just like you.

      One notable fitness expert (NOT Tim) said, “who cares Ray, you can’t sell cold? Well, I care because I struggled with my weight and this gave me an edge to get ahead. I think that there is an opportunity to do more “crowd-sourced’ research in this field and I am both scientifically objective and passionately driven to figure it out. What is amazing is that in the last year more and more evidence points to this is a core issue in our current Obesity crisis.

      We’ll all benefit if we can keep the dialog focused on this site and avoid the temptation to break this down into simple media sound bites that travel the blogworld. I can tell you that when I did my TEDtalk in October (hopefully will post soon) most fitness sites and the medical community had it wrong. I’d like to not only correct this, but there are new things I’ve learned that can take this to a very practical part of everyday life.

      Thanks!! Love the way you are thinking.

      Ray

      • Robert Kemp says:

        Because the study looked at a two-hour immersion in a cold environment, I was interpreting it in the context of your “shiver walks”, i.e., short-term forays in search of negative calories.

        You’re absolutely correct – if you adopt a sixty degree F environment full-time, which doesn’t seem too much of a hardship, then the 5-30% increase will add up to real numbers, e.g., 15 kcal/hr (about average from the study) X 24 = 360 kcal/day, or about a 1/10 lb of fat. That’s about 37 lb/yr.

        Again, I’ll take it, but in order for this to succeed one must still confront the resulting increase in hunger due to the cold (which was mentioned in another post), and that takes us full circle to the fundamental flaw of most weight-loss diets: they depend upon will-power to deny sating hunger.

        We need a bio-hack around this; whether you starve yourself, take ice baths, or whatever, in order to lose weight, suffering rarely works in the long term. Eventually you want a back rub and a cup of hot cocoa, then some ice cream, and so on. People relapse.

        You didn’t address the other questions I posed; if you have the answers, I hope they are forthcoming. I think I speak for many of your audience when I plead: Lay your Thermogenex opus upon us!

        You have been successful in losing a great deal of weight partly due to your exercising in the cold air, and I applaud that success. A thought experiment: Assuming you have a certain amount of cold time available per day – and, no, I’m not in prison – I wonder if you’d burn more calories by exercising wherever/whenever it’s convenient (i.e., not necessarily in the cold), and spending your limited cold time at idle.

        While idle in the cold, your body has to heat itself to maintain proper temperature, thus burning calories; while exercising in the cold, your body gets a free ride from the innate thermal inefficiency of skeletal muscle metabolism, and thus you don’t burn those thermogenic calories (or burn fewer). Furthermore, the thermogenic process uses >90% FFA (I read this somewhere today, but can’t cite) while the exercise will use << 90% FFA for its energy. Nerds, what do you think?

      • admin says:

        yes, I think I’ve figured out how. Stay tuned while others catch up. As you’ve correctly pointed out, everyone to date says its futile to burn more calories, because you’ll “just want to eat more.”. If done correctly, that’s not a problem. I promise to get to many of your questions soon.

        …class, Robert is paying attention.

        Ray.

      • Mike Busch says:

        Actually, quite a lot of the appetite concerns can be addressed with the Slow/Low-Carb diet. That will keep insulin spikes down to restrict storage glucose as fat.

  6. Erin Khoo says:

    Salinity To Increase Heat Transfer?

    Hey Guys; you know how salt water transfers heat more efficiently? (something to do with water dentisity which peaks at +4 degrees)

    Think it would be significant in a cold water bath? It does chill drinks in 3-5 mins opposed to 10-15 without.

    I think it does…have not tested yet.

    (I am aware it would also melt ice faster)

  7. Steven Platek says:

    Great Stuff. After reading 4HB I started re-researching this effect.
    It’s been known about in mice for a while… the idea in adult humans is pretty awesome.

    A few questions: I am totally new to cold treatment, my wife and I started trying it after reading 4HB.

    1) After taking a cold shower I feel very warm, almost feverish somewhere between 15-45 minutes later. For example, after my workout I might take a cold one, then when I get to my office at the college (7 minutes drive) I feel very warm, sometimes even on the way there I get warm in the car (& I avoid heater use). Could this be related to the effect, or is something else going on in your mind?

    2) could laying on cold cement have a similar effect? I run a CrossFit Gym in my garage (hence the cement floor) and I am trying to expose my athletes to this technique without having them watch me shower and they are not into the cold pack. I was thinking, if I made laying on the garage, the cold garage floor shirtless after a workout… maybe similar? Any thoughts.

    Lastly, thanks for this great resource. I cannot wait for part 2 of this post.

  8. Robbie Kepic says:

    I found your blog via Tim at the 4HB, and I’m trying to live cooler. I understand the thermodynamics and heat transfer (mechanical engineer) but something I don’t understand is…I spend 1 hour, 3-4 days a week doing deep water aerobics in an 84F pool. Why am I having such a difficult time losing weight? Shouldn’t I be a skinny minny??? I’m missing something here.

    • admin says:

      Well, there are two sides of the equation: input and output. If you are running a caloric deficit (input

      • Robbie Kepic says:

        I’ve been doing the deep water aerobics for about a year already, well before I discovered 4HB, so that is set and I have someone lined up to teach me to do kettlebell swings next month.

        Soooo, I will do the diet TO THE LETTER 😉 for 7 days and then add the swings. Tim did say that in mothers of two over 40 (plus post menopausal) it sometimes take 3 weeks to show a loss. I’m willing to be patient. (I don’t want to give up or slow down the swimming though. It makes me feel good.)

        Thanks for your help! (I’m from Alabama too, Gulf Shores)

      • admin says:

        OK…swimming increases appetite, so you will DEFINITELY have to keep track for 7 days. Take a picture if you must. No liquid calories at ALL. There Is a link in Tim’s book to the kettelbell swing – only one there that you need. Pretty basic and if you have enough weight, you will be fatigued in 20 swings.

        Yes, be patient and stick with it…

        Ray

      • Robbie Kepic says:

        Leaving for vacation with the mindset of starting and doing it perfectly when I return.

      • admin says:

        Here is a hint….EASE in. Start Now. when you start on a day, you are more likely to stop. Just do small things on the vacation that get you trended toward the lifestyle you want to live. I would begin the transformation today and then be completely transformed when you come back from vacation.

        Ray

      • Jeff Morgan says:

        Swimming increases appetite but does simply sitting in a cold pool without actively swimming have any such effect?

      • admin says:

        It should be the same. I think appetite increase is tied to an increased caloric burn and the associated heat recovery afterwards. It’s only a hypothesis, but there is nothing in the peer-reviewed literature that contradicts it. that is the primary focus of my research now. I will post more soon.

        Ray

  9. jo we says:

    Whens the guide coming out? I thought I read it was last week? Need any help?

    • admin says:

      It’s been done, just trying to work out the details of making membership software talk to autoresponder. I was out of town all week speaking and I am behind. I have been working on the membership stuff this afternoon…

      sorry and YES, I probably DO need help.

      Ray

  10. Carla Ehrenreich says:

    Love your title on this one.

    As mom to three little girls who are all under weight, this post makes me think that I really need to make sure that they are always wearing their socks (being from up North blizzard country) and maybe even encourage them to wear hats in the house to minimize their heat loss from their extremities – while I should keep my freezing feet sockless.

    Really noticed the hunger increase from experimenting with the cold showers and I find them very hard to do. The mental stamina required is huge!

    Have been talking to a girlfriend of mine who is trying to loose weight about the cold treatment and she said she would “never” take a cold shower. The psychology is very interesting – she does lots of other difficult things in the name of diet. Is there some very old primal conditioning that is the root for our aversion to any amount of cold. Yes if I were to go out and lay down in the snow in the blizzard raging outside my survival would be in jeopardy, but a few minutes in a cold shower isn’t going to jeopardize it. Just writing this makes me realize that our cold response obviously doesn’t come with any gradation. Any cold = decrease survival.

    • admin says:

      I think kids get it balanced and right and then we screw it up by the time they graduate from high school – kind of like curiosity and creativity. Usually, I found that my kids (all thin) do the same thing. Not too worried about coats, etc…

      If you drop the temperature down in the house, you should be certain to keep them warm, but again, I think in general, people do just fine down to about 60F/15C.

      I found EXACTLY the same response. People are incredibly fearful of cold. It is of course interesting that we were able to overcome exposure to the cold (central heating, etc..) and for thousands of years that was a key survival issue. Now we all seem to be carrying around too much energy. It is great thought experiment…

      Overall all exposure is not as prescriptive as what we find in The 4-hour body, so it’s not as easy to package and sell. It’s more about lifestyle. It’s worked for me, but I want to really polish it to a list of things to do…

      Ray

  11. william garnsey says:

    water (motion) chill factor?
    Hi Ray,
    Sorry, history major here, so I’m not so quick on the science. I just started doing the cold baths in the morning. My routine is a 2-3 min warm shower, then into a Japanese soaking tub for 20 min of 60ish degree water. This tub has jets, is there any advantage to be sitting in swirling, rather than still cold water. You know, like the wind chill factor, only it’s a water motion.

    The other benefit is I really don’t need caffeine anymore to get going in the AM.

    • admin says:

      William,

      The advantage comes from water vs air. Water has increased heat capacity and increased thermal conductivity (rate of heat loss). In air the movement increases heat loss rate by putting you in contact with more volumes of air as well as making evaporation more efficient.

      The one advantage to jets is that it’s dropping the water temperature or at least holding off a rise in temperature (think of your body as a 100 watt heater).

      You can probably drop the temperature and the experience will not get progressively worse. The cold does get your body moving again and I’m not surprised by the decreased need for caffeine. If you think about it, stimulants all do the same thing in an unhealthy way – raise metabolic rate through increased amount of physical activity

      Ray

  12. Jay Jay says:

    Hi Ray,

    Just read your Fuel the Burn booklet and I had to get your opinion on something. Your third tip is to eat frequent small meals, I’m wondering if you have any evidence for this?

    Another blog I frequent is leangains.com, he has a list of diet myths listed and he goes into quite some detail and cites studies to back up his claims. Number one on this list is the idea that people need to eat frequently.

    Here is the article I’m talking about.

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-ten-fasting-myths-debunked.html

    • admin says:

      Thanks Jay

      There are several studies that are cited in http://bit.ly/hGUds4 that are pertinent. My focus on small frequent meals is a direct response to hunger control and habit. Understand if you read this article carefully, you’ll find there were a wide range of motivations behind investigations that are cited under this review article. Some of the most important parts of the article cite very specifically the relationship between meals and corresponding heat balance. What is concluded in a hand waving way is the body will make up for any extra postpradal metabolic boost, by lowering at another time.

      What if one is in a positive metabolic state of thermal loading at that time? We don’t know. As well, what about the the issues of not including the total area under the curve for total metabolic expenditure? Not accounting for total energy balance is part of my issue with previous studies that don’t include the complete thermal load or only study under one (perhaps artificially low/high) thermal condition – modern bundling or living in controlled space. It’s still possible that we have triggered the onset of heat imbalance with environment/plentiful calories.

      The other side of this is that much of the same type of non-comprehensive studies on activity side yields that one cannot lose weight swimming because the thermal expenditure will simply be wiped out by over eating to compensate. Most swimmers will tell you they do lose weight and the “increased fat” of swimmers over runners is 10% vs 7% is hardly something to fuss over (Flynn Int. J. Sports Med. 11(1990) 433-440). I’d suspect most on this list would be delighted to reach 10%. Controlling hunger to stave off that increased appetite is a big part of success.

      Finally, the last paragraph holds key information. FFA and glucose are both critical to mitochondrial energy pathways.

      I’ll stick with my assertions for now. There is room for more research, but controlling hunger and potential multiplying effects of thermal loading keeps me solid on small frequent meals at this time.

      We’ll see, but I believe there will be support.

      Ray

      • Steven Platek says:

        Ray, great response – I had the same thought on the frequent meals idea, having also checked out lean gains. I’ve noticed two things, in myself: 1) I don’t NEED frequent meals because I’ve learned to control my appetite, although recently, the past two weeks as I’ve tried thermal loading I must admit I’ve been hungrier than usual and back to snacking on smaller meals; 2) the lean gains idea is based on intermittent fasting activating thermal load… that is wholly different from 3 square.

        Great post and response! thanks!

      • admin says:

        I still leave room that I’m wrong. For me I think that it’s habit and awareness that count for most of the success. It’s why I only spent a sentence on postpradal metabolic boost and a paragraph on appetite.

        I don’t think the article is conclusive, but it is compelling and they may be right. When we get to swimming you’ll see similar articles on the lack of support for swimming and weight loss.

        I’m glad jay sent this. Science is ultimately about embracing being wrong; it’s the only time we ever learn something. For now I want to stick with small frequent meals. I too saw the hunger spikes on thermal loading and that seems to be reproduced in several places. I now see that as a SIGN that i’m burning calories. It’s sort of an odd positive feedback loop. I will discuss my vegan experience in detail later, but in general, hunger on a vegan diet is FAR MORE TOLERABLE than when one adds animal protein back in. There is rarely hunger pangs in the stomach – this seems to be a response to fat/animal protein. Hunger perception is more in the throat (swallowing frequency), taste of food, and salivation. It’s something I miss from the vegan diet as that was one of the few easy parts of it (I did it for a year as a self experiment).

        I also didn’t spend much time on thermogenic effect of food. From an energy balance alone, it’s not a huge spike in metabolism or energy use. I’m not saying it does not exisit or isn’t useful, but for me it’s nice to add to the arsenal not the main drive. My focus was on getting 20-300% boosts in RMR; these are big numbers and well documented with calorimetry in peer-reviewed articles. I tried larger meals with thermal loading and it didn’t seem to matter much (per appetite control). My fear is it was too risky to over consume, but then again people would say similar things about swimming.

        Any other thoughts out there? This could be a good test for someone. Sounds like a perfect surfer strategy given long cold soaks in pacific and demonstrated hunger.

        Ray

      • Alexandra Road says:

        Hi Ray

        Jack Kruse says that cold thermogenesis brings the following benefits:

        Lowering body fat (BAT)
        Increasing fat burning hormone levels (HGH and Irisin)
        Improving sexual performance and fertility
        Lowering blood sugar
        Cutting food cravings
        Improving adrenal function
        Fixing thyroid issues
        Enhancing immune function
        Improving deep sleep quality
        Increasing pain tolerance
        Reducing inflammation
        Increasing cell longevity

        Do you agree with these statements?

        The one I am not sure I understand is the “decreased food cravings”. He connects this effect to Leptin (higher release and increased sensitivity). Is there some truth in this?

        I ask because my biggest problem is hunger! LoL I think most women’s problem is uncontrolled cravings. I tried vegan too, always hungry on it too… I can control hunger for a while… but not long term.

        Thank you!

      • admin says:

        What you describe as hunger – stomach pangs, lethargy, headache irritability, etc…is not hunger. It’s withdraw symptoms and similar responses happen when you give up caffeine, narcotics or alcohol. While there are additional physiological issues with other chemical dependency, the basic are the same.

        You feed yourself every few hours, and its not for “energy.” You have plenty of “energy” in your adipose tissue. You do it to manage other short term imbalances caused by short term lapses in calorie – primarily sugar/fat. These “cravings” (not a term of survival, but addiction) are tied to our evolutionary quest for calorie in an environment that is calorically scarce.

        I was lead down a path to believe we had to eat often; I was wrong. I thought we needed to eat every day; I was wrong. I accepted this dogma and that was my mistake. When I really questioned and read it was obvious. The same for my once ridiculous notion that meat = “protein.” I see it all clearly now, but don’t even bother to debate with the many that hold onto these failed notions of food. At the same time, I don’t demonized meat – I just don’t involve myself in ideology for or against it. I want to understand what the body needs.

        True hunger is in the mouth – increased salivation, swallowing or heightened sense of taste.

        Everyone wants to make this super complicated with loads of molecular biology. One don’t need to manage the details if one manages the bigger picture (called state equations).

        It’s not that difficult or complex and that’s where I’ve focused my attention. We’ve never known more than we do today and we’ve never been fatter. This is not a knowledge problem. It’s certainly not an issue of meat, sugar, refined grain or fat deficiency.

        Ray

      • Alexandra Road says:

        Great answer. Worth printing and hanging somewhere in my kitchen!

  13. Camron Sabour says:

    Great article! Inspired me to make a video of my ice bath

    http://blog.camronsabour.com/2012/01/during-my-bike-trip-from-ottawa-to.html

  14. […] carbohydrate, most of us know when we have too much of it around.  We covered some material in the BATgirl posts – predominately the “brown” flavor, so now let’s talk about the […]

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